Washed and clothed in Christ: The beauty of the Sacrament of Holy Baptism

[bbbbbbb]

You are welcome to use the KJV but that version carries no authority for me.

But the Knox Bible says:
1 Let me remind you, brethren, of this. Our fathers were hidden, all of them, under the cloud, and found a path, all of them, through the sea;
2 all alike, in the cloud and in the sea, were baptized into Moses’ fellowship.
3 They all ate the same prophetic food,✻

‘Prophetic’; literally, ‘spiritual’. The sense may be merely that of ‘supernatural’, but it seems more likely that St Paul is regarding the manna, the water, and the rock as types of things to come; cf. Apoc. 11.8.​

4 and all drank the same prophetic drink, watered by the same prophetic rock which bore them company, the rock that was Christ.✻

St Paul is no doubt alluding to a Jewish legend, according to which the rock from which the water came was enabled, by a miracle, to accompany the wanderings of the Israelites; he means, perhaps, to attribute this abiding presence to the thing signified rather than to the rock itself.​

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And as the Douay Rheims spoke of being baptised in Moses (in verse 2) it offers this footnote: in Moses. Under the conduct of Moses, they received baptism in figure, by passing under the cloud, and through the sea; and they partook of the body and blood of Christ in figure, by eating of the manna, (called here a spiritual food, because it was a figure of the true bread which comes down from heaven,) and drinking the water, miraculously brought out of the rock, called here a spiritual rock, because it was also a figure of Christ.

One cannot deny that the sea is watery, and that baptism as used here does imply water.

Ultimately, of course, your authority does not lie with scripture only, but with Holy Tradition, of which scripture only plays a small role.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Ultimately, of course, your authority does not lie with scripture only, but with Holy Tradition, of which scripture only plays a small role.

Having been unable to establish your claims from scripture you have resorted to making untrue claims about the authority that I receive.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Having been unable to establish your claims from scripture you have resorted to making untrue claims about the authority that I receive.

Do you not trust the Holy Tradition of the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Do you not trust the Holy Tradition of the Roman Catholic Church?

Of course, I trust Holy Tradition which is a deposit of Interpretation of Holy Scripture and I trust Holy Scripture which is revelation from God. But as I observed, I do not feel obliged to accept interpretations expressed in the text of the KJV or offered by a reader of the KJV, that is the case because neither the KJV nor the opinions of its readers are revelation from God except insofar as either is consistent with what God has revealed in Holy Scripture. The KJV is an interpretive work produced by Anglican scholars in the seventeenth century, it is often a good translation and sometimes a bad one, on the whole it is worth reading but it is not to be relied upon as if it is always correct because it is not always correct.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Of course this is so, and sins are also washed away by baptism, as the holy apostle said: And he said, 'The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Just One and to hear a voice from his mouth; for you will be a witness for him to all men of what you have seen and heard. And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.' (Acts 22:14-16 RSV-CE)

Johns water baptism was for the remission of sins. But we know that without the sheading of blood is no remission. So the water baptisms off the old covenant were only types and shadows of the reality (Hebrews 9) John baptized in the Jordan river. Jordan means descending place to go down. This was typified also when the people crossed over the Jordan into the new land and the water parted the ark going first and Joshua as a types of Christ also. Then they put 12 stones in the river and took 22 stones out into the new land.John the Baptist was connected to this old testament type.

But this was a shadow not the substance.

Many Jewish believers were still under the law and customs for a long time and the old covenant had not fully been done away et or decayed it was vanishing but they held onto it for a while .Read Acts 21. Paul even in Acts 16 had Timothy circumcised so as not to offend the Jews.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Baptism implies a bath, not to mention the burial of a corpse.

Don't you think it is beneath your dignity to actually believe Romans 6 is a picture of baptism?
This has been debated over and over and over and over and over again.

This comment disappoints me.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Don't you think it is beneath your dignity to actually believe Romans 6 is a picture of baptism?
This has been debated over and over and over and over and over again.

This comment disappoints me.

I doubt this is the first time I have disappointed you.

Romans 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

 

[Danthemailman]

On all three counts this interpretation is incorrect.

• First, it is in the cloud and the sea that Paul says that Israel was baptised into Moses: For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud: and all passed through the sea. And all in Moses were baptized, in the cloud and in the sea: And did all eat the same spiritual food: And all drank the same spiritual drink: (And they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ.) (1 Corinthians 10:1-4 DRB)
• Second, Christians baptised in a Baptism like burial and like rising from a grave are baptised into Christ: Know you not that all we who are baptized in Christ Jesus are baptized in his death? For we are buried together with him by baptism into death: that, as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection. (Romans 6:3-5 DRB)
• Third, there is only one baptism for Christians, as the scripture says: Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. One body and one Spirit: as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all. (Ephesians 4:3-6 DRB)

1 Corinthians 10:1-4 teaches that Israel of old was baptised under the cloud and through the sea. Surrounded by these elements Israel experienced sacramental union with Moses into through whom they were brought into familiarity with God. Moses being their mediator, and as a type of Christ Moses was, for Israel, like Christ. And in Romand 6:3-5 the waters of baptism are a sign and symbol of union with the Lord, Jesus Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection to communion in life through Christ with God. And Ephesians 4:3-6 reminds Christians that their life in Christ is through the one Lord, faith, and baptism that brought all into communion with the one God and Father who is in all of his people.

Are you a Roman Catholic? My interpretation is not incorrect on all three counts. The Israelites were guided by God's presence as a cloud by day and fire at night. (Exodus 13:21) Baptized into Moses/Israel was immersed into Moses, indicating their oneness or solidarity with Moses as their leader. (1 Corinthians 10:2) The Israelites were not literally water baptized in the red sea as Christians are literally baptized in water or Spirit baptized into the body of Moses as Christians are Spirit baptized into the body of Christ. The Israelites crossed over through the red sea dry and safe while the Egyptians were immersed into the red sea, and they all drown.

In regard to Romans 6:3-5, water baptism is the picture and Spirit baptism is the reality. Being buried together with him by baptism into death/planted together in the likeness of his death/in the likeness of his resurrection is signified, but not procured in the waters of baptism. As Greek scholar AT Robertson said, "a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality."

Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. *Also see John 4:10,14; 7:37 for the word drink(s). There is only one baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is Spirit baptism, not water baptism.

You said above - in Romand 6:3-5 the waters of baptism are a sign and symbol of union with the Lord, Jesus Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection to communion in life through Christ with God. I agree. That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, burial and resurrection, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Don't you think it is beneath your dignity to actually believe Romans 6 is a picture of baptism?
This has been debated over and over and over and over and over again.

This comment disappoints me.

I have been told by several Baptists that Romans chapter six is proof that one must be immersed in baptism. As a proof text for credobaptism by submersion it does not serve well, yet it without doubt establishes that the passage is about Christian baptism as saint Paul says it is. And baptism implies water. Christian baptism most definitely implies water except in the most unusual circumstances, such as the baptism of blood in the case of an unbaptised martyr, and the baptism of desire in the case of those who die before their baptism rite was carried out yet had expressed their desire to become a Christian. I do, however see your point regarding your interlocutor's post.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Johns water baptism was for the remission of sins. But we know that without the sheading of blood is no remission. So the water baptisms off the old covenant were only types and shadows of the reality (Hebrews 9) John baptized in the Jordan river. Jordan means descending place to go down. This was typified also when the people crossed over the Jordan into the new land and the water parted the ark going first and Joshua as a types of Christ also. Then they put 12 stones in the river and took 22 stones out into the new land.John the Baptist was connected to this old testament type.

But this was a shadow not the substance.

Many Jewish believers were still under the law and customs for a long time and the old covenant had not fully been done away et or decayed it was vanishing but they held onto it for a while .Read Acts 21. Paul even in Acts 16 had Timothy circumcised so as not to offend the Jews.

Acts 22:14-16 is about Christian Baptism.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

I have been told by several Baptists that Romans chapter six is proof that one must be immersed in baptism. As a proof text for credobaptism by submersion it does not serve well, yet it without doubt establishes that the passage is about Christian baptism as saint Paul says it is. And baptism implies water. Christian baptism most definitely implies water except in the most unusual circumstances, such as the baptism of blood in the case of an unbaptised martyr, and the baptism of desire in the case of those who die before their baptism rite was carried out yet had expressed their desire to become a Christian. I do, however see your point regarding your interlocutor's post.

Jesus was not buried in the ground and immersed with dirt. This is not a PICTURE of immersion baptism.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Are you a Roman Catholic?

No, I am an Australian Catholic, geographically speaking but doctrinally speaking I am a Catholic.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Jesus was not buried in the ground and immersed with dirt. This is not a PICTURE of immersion baptism.

One might agree that it is no picture of any kind, except perhaps "a word picture", and even then, it does not serve well as such for any who wish to use it as a proof text for baptism by submersion (or immersion).

A Catholic commentator writes:

Were baptized - The act of baptism denotes dedication to the service of him in whose name we are baptized. One of its designs is to dedicate or consecrate us to the service of Christ: Thus 1Co 10:2, the Israelites are said to have been “baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;” that is, they became consecrated, or dedicated, or bound to him as their leader and lawgiver. In the place before us, the argument of the apostle is evidently drawn from the supposition that we have been solemnly consecrated by baptism to the service of Christ; and that to sin is therefore a violation of the very nature of our Christian profession.​

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Into - εἰς eis. This is the word which is used in Mat 28:19, “Teach all nations, baptizing them into εἰς eis the name of the Father,” etc. It means, being baptized unto his service; receiving him as the Saviour and guide, devoting all unto him and his cause.​

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Were baptized unto his death - We were baptized with special reference to his death. Our baptism had a strong resemblance to his death. By that he became insensible to the things of the world; by baptism we in like manner become dead to sin. Further, we are baptized with particular reference to the design of his death, the great leading feature and purpose of his work. That was, to expiate sin; to free people from its power; to make them pure. We have professed our devotion to the same cause; and have solemnly consecrated ourselves to the same design - to put a period to the dominion of iniquity.​

In short what Romans chapter six is doing teaching what baptism means for the one baptised, it is not saying that death & burial are a picture of baptism or even a word picture of baptism - if that were what saint Paul wanted to teach he'd have written "when you were baptised it looked like you died and were buried (just as Christ died and was buried) and when you came up out of the water it looked like you were rising from the dead (just as Christ rose from the dead)" - the passage is about meaning, it is about what one's baptism signifies regarding union with the Lord, Jesus Christ, in his death (to sin) and burial (separation from worldly life) and resurrection (to new life in Jesus Christ). None of this is about immersion or submersion in any sense.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The Israelites were not literally water baptized in the red sea as Christians are literally baptized in water or Spirit baptized into the body of Moses as Christians are Spirit baptized into the body of Christ.

The Israelites were baptised into union with Moses, no special thought of immersion is present, in point of fact the Israelites were at most sprinkled by a few drops of water from the sea as they passed though it on dry ground with the waters raised like walls to their left and their right. Israel's baptism into Moses is not Christian baptism, nevertheless baptism implies water, even in the case of the crossing of the red sea. Christian baptism does not imply submersion or immersion, but it does imply the use of water as washing agent that washes away sins by the death and resurrection of the Lord, Jesus Christ. And Christian baptism always implies union with Christ in his body and new birth by means of the Spirit of God - after all, no part of the body of Christ is dead in sins and trespasses, is it?

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

One might agree that it is no picture of any kind, except perhaps "a word picture", and even then, it does not serve well as such for any who wish to use it as a proof text for baptism by submersion (or immersion).

Correct. There are no prescriptive texts on how to administrate baptism in the NT. No "thus say the Lord." None. Only descriptive texts. Baptists and American Evangelicals take descriptive texts and turn them into prescriptive. A big no no.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

In regard to Romans 6:3-5, water baptism is the picture and Spirit baptism is the reality.

That interpretation is in error; Romans 6:3-5 is not about pictures it is about meanings, specifically, the meaning of baptism is union with Jesus Christ in his saving death, burial, and resurrection. Every Christian is baptised into Christ and hence is born of water and the Spirit.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I am puzzled as to why the topic has now turned to the mode of baptism. It is a known historical fact that both the Eastern Orthodox as well as Roman Catholic Churches baptized people by immersion for centuries. In fact, the Eastern Orthodox Churches still do. We have abundant evidence of this practice in the form of baptisteries erected with pools, usually round or polygonal, which would suffice nicely for swimming pools.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Ephesians 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

I am glad that you see the connection between the one Christian baptism (in water and the Spirit) and union in the body of Christ.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I am puzzled as to why the topic has now turned to the mode of baptism. It is a known historical fact that both the Eastern Orthodox as well as Roman Catholic Churches baptized people by immersion for centuries. In fact, the Eastern Orthodox Churches still do. We have abundant evidence of this practice in the form of baptisteries erected with pools, usually round or polygonal, which would suffice nicely for swimming pools.

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There is nothing incorrection about baptising by immersion, it is an accepted mode, it is however not a necessary mode since pouring is fully correct too. But the thread is not about mode, the discussion of mode arises from interpretation of Romans 6:3-5. That passage is not about mode, it is about meaning. The mode discussion is present only to make that point clear.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

You said above - in Romand 6:3-5 the waters of baptism are a sign and symbol of union with the Lord, Jesus Christ in his death, burial, and resurrection to communion in life through Christ with God. I agree. That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, burial and resurrection, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures.

Good, except that the last part is entirely incorrect. Romans 6:3-5 is about the meaning of baptism it is not about the mode of baptism.