SC Senate Passes Bill Banning Affirmative Care For Minors

[KCfromNC]

They aren’t women, though. Just because they “live as a woman” doesn’t make them one. They’re still men and I’m not going to validate their delusion.

No. It’s not about politeness. It’s about logic and living in reality.

Is it also OK to refuse to accept that people have a personal relationship with an invisible omnipotent being and refuse to validate their feelings - you know, since it isn't about politeness but about logic and living in reality? I can see us only limiting freedom of religion to those religions which can demonstrate the objective reality of their beliefs, the rest don't need to be "validate"d by legal protections.

Seems only fair.

 

[rturner76]

Well you seem to be making some very large claims about the "diagnosis" and "treatment" that happens when a person goes to a gender clinic asking for pills.

It's not a large claim to say that a doctor diagnoses and treats their patient.

Now all of a sudden.....you don't know what happens. Is it safe to say you're beliefs are just a bunch of assumptions at this point?

And you do know what happens between every doctor and patient in the nation?

Well many have spoken up about the ease and swiftness (even sometimes making it sound as if there's pressure for them to begin treatment) of obtaining these medications.

There are bad medical practices all over. For example the pain killer "Pill Mills" who give everyone that comes in painkillers. I'm sure that goes on for many medications.

Conversely....apart from those places where prescribing these medications to children is illegal....it's difficult to find examples of trans people struggling to obtain these medications when they have the means and desire to.

WHy should they have to struggle to get medication? I don't struggle to get mine unless I wanted an addictive medication. That's where people often get denied.

No....I simply have anecdotes. I'll admit I could be wrong, if someone presented the evidence that am I...I'll gladly acknowledge it....but it appears that you don't have any.

Anecdotes are evidence that things do happen; it's not worthless data. It just doesn't show a nationwide picture Evidence that you are wrong about what exactly. We have gone back and forth on many aspects of this phenomenon.

Imagine for a moment that you had a worker at the gender clinic who claimed they'd never seen anyone turned down for treatment.....you'd think the medical community would do more than merely deny it, right? You think they'd at least provide statistics for how many people came in claiming to be transgender and were denied treatment because the experts disagreed with them.

I don't think anyone should be turned done for medical treatment of any kind. I still think you may have the mindset that transgender tendencies are a character defect rather than a medical condition. It is diagnosable and treatable. Treatment plans do vary however.

Many people who have gone through with these treatments and later stopped or regretted it have spoken up. Others in these gender clinics have leaked information or whistleblown on the industry.

Just like people have reported and whistleblown about pill mills. Not every clinic is on the up and up. It doesn't mean that it happening in wvwryone's treatment.

Of course, these alone don't prove what happens across the entire medical community....but the medical community hasn't exactly done anything to disprove the notion that these incidents are even extremely common let alone the standard.

Doctors tend to cover other doctor's rear ends. That could have something to do with it. Also, I think they keep more documentation on who is receiving treatment than who is being denied treatment.

 

[Ana the Ist]

And a trans man isn't a biological man and a trans woman isn't a biological woman.

We don't have to use the term "biological" at this point. We can simply say a trans man isn't a man, and a trans woman isn't a woman.

Distinct categories.

No, I was just pointing out that I have never equated drag and transgender.

At festival time trans women stage their own beauty pageant, the usual thing of ball gowns, bathing suits and talent shows. You take a look at those contestants and before long what their genitals are somehow doesn't seem so important. Best drag show I ever saw.

It really seems as if you're conflating drag and trans women. Trans women holding a beauty pageant wouldn't be a drag show. It would just be a beauty pageant for trans women.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Is it also OK to refuse to accept that people have a personal relationship with an invisible omnipotent being and refuse to validate their feelings - you know, since it isn't about politeness but about logic and living in reality?

Of course.

Is this something that happens to you? Because Christians who claim to have a personal relationship with their god have never demanded that I alter my language or otherwise validate their beliefs. I've never even heard of such a thing.

I can see us only limiting freedom of religion to those religions *snip*

I don't think you're going to find it that easy to alter the first amendment.

 

[RileyG]

Is it also OK to refuse to accept that people have a personal relationship with an invisible omnipotent being and refuse to validate their feelings - you know, since it isn't about politeness but about logic and living in reality? I can see us only limiting freedom of religion to those religions which can demonstrate the objective reality of their beliefs, the rest don't need to be "validate"d by legal protections.

Seems only fair.

Careful. Showing contempt for Christianity is forbidden here, sir. It’s against the forums rules.

I stand with real women.

Not mentally ill men who think they are women.

Sorry

 

[RileyG]

Of course.

Is this something that happens to you? Because Christians who claim to have a personal relationship with their god have never demanded that I alter my language or otherwise validate their beliefs. I've never even heard of such a thing.





I don't think you're going to find it that easy to alter the first amendment.

Well said!

 

[rturner76]

I've never even heard of such a thing.

You also seem to have not of hears of respecting someone's wishes due to your own hangups and judgement

 

[BCP1928]

We don't have to use the term "biological" at this point. We can simply say a trans man isn't a man, and a trans woman isn't a woman.

Distinct categories.

So they can't share pronouns with the other two?

At festival time trans women stage their own beauty pageant, the usual thing of ball gowns, bathing suits and talent shows. You take a look at those contestants and before long what their genitals are somehow doesn't seem so important. Best drag show I ever saw.

It really seems as if you're conflating drag and trans women. Trans women holding a beauty pageant wouldn't be a drag show. It would just be a beauty pageant for trans women.

Sure, trans isn't the same as drag and what I attended was a trans women's beauty contest. But "drag " can be described as "male theatrical transvestism" and a beauty pageant is certainly a theatrical performance--what else would you call attractive young women prancing about a stage in a variety of alluring costumes? I thought calling it a drag show was a nice turn of phrase. I would never have imagined anyone would take it as an assertion that trans and drag were identical.

 

[rjs330]

Not really, it's based more on how you think things should be. NTW what's wrong with American science.

I didn't realize science was all based upon America.

I think you are confused about what doctors do.

I think you are the one that's confused.

Gender-affirming care, as defined by the World Health Organization, encompasses a range of social, psychological, behavioral, and medical interventions “designed to support and affirm an individual’s gender identity” when it conflicts with the gender they were assigned at birth. The interventions help transgender people align various aspects of their lives — emotional, interpersonal, and biological — with their gender identity. As noted by the American Psychiatric Association (APA), that identity can run anywhere along a continuum that includes man, woman, a combination of those, neither of those, and fluid.

You know what you don't see there? Any mention of discovering if the person (in the case of this topic a child), is actually trans or perhaps suffering from other mental health issues, mislead or perhaps autistic.

Gender-affirming care is medically necessary, evidence-based care that uses a multidisciplinary approach to help a person transition from their assigned gender – the one the person was designated at birth – to their affirmed gender – the gender by which one wants to be known.

The only real-life alternate is conversion or denial of treatment.

No it not.

That's how people are treated when their family denies their condition.

You're still the only one who mentioned that.

And your notion that sll someone has to do is say they are transgender and they go under the knife is pretty cavemanish.

Once again you are making things up. No one has said that. Man you are just full of ridiculous claims.

 

[rjs330]

Hard to say, since you haven't defined "women's spaces" I'm not sure I want you to. The use of a vaguely defined term like "women's spaces" taken together with the fantasy that the ultimate goal of trans women is to "get into" these "spaces" makes it sound decidedly creepy.

That's because it is decidedly creepy. Men don't belong in women's spaces. You know good and well what we are talking about because you've addressed those spaces other threads. Arguing for thier access.

That is why, for example, I speculated about the creation of a gender category for them, as a way of lessening the agony for you having to include trans women in the same gender category as biological women.

There are only two biological categories. Men and women. There are only two genders. Menn and women. There us no need for a third. Because they are still biologically one or the other.

 

[rjs330]

What have I said all along.....their treatment is between them and their doctor. Nobody knows but them when and if they will be allowed HRT.

And if they want it they get it. No questions asked. I've told you what Affirmative does. It transitions people. No one us denied. Afvirnative care gives the patient whatever they want to transition.

 

[FireDragon76]

Is it also OK to refuse to accept that people have a personal relationship with an invisible omnipotent being and refuse to validate their feelings - you know, since it isn't about politeness but about logic and living in reality? I can see us only limiting freedom of religion to those religions which can demonstrate the objective reality of their beliefs, the rest don't need to be "validate"d by legal protections.

Seems only fair.

It does seem ironic that people that have so often claimed to be victims of scientism, would themselves resort to it in questioning the lived experience of others.

 

[BCP1928]

That's because it is decidedly creepy. Men don't belong in women's spaces.

Yes, the preoccupation with "women's spaces" and the fantasy about trans women's intense desire to "get" in them for some unspoken reason is very creepy.

You know good and well what we are talking about because you've addressed those spaces other threads. Arguing for thier access.

Here's one for you: I was at a state park the other day, and there was the usual little rustic cabin with two doors down at the end of the parking lot
One door said "Ungendered toilet with urinals." the other said, "Ungendered toilet without urinals." Problem solved.

There are only two biological categories. Men and women. There are only two genders. Menn and women. There us no need for a third. Because they are still biologically one or the other.

Biology wins every time.

 

[RileyG]

Yes, the preoccupation with "women's spaces" and the fantasy about trans women's intense desire to "get" in them for some unspoken reason is very creepy.

Here's one for you: I was at a state park the other day, and there was the usual little rustic cabin with two doors down at the end of the parking lot
One door said "Ungendered toilet with urinals." the other said, "Ungendered toilet without urinals." Problem solved.

Biology wins every time.

Here’s the thing. Trans “women” aren’t women from our perspective. They’re still men. They don’t belong in women’s spaces. That’s biology.

I don’t think unisex bathrooms will solve everything, but they can help.

 

[A2SG]

Of course.

Is this something that happens to you? Because Christians who claim to have a personal relationship with their god have never demanded that I alter my language or otherwise validate their beliefs. I've never even heard of such a thing.

Really? Do you go on vacation to a secluded island during late December?

-- A2SG, at least you won't have to listen to that Mariah Carey song again and again and again....

 

[rjs330]

Is it also OK to refuse to accept that people have a personal relationship with an invisible omnipotent being and refuse to validate their feelings - you know, since it isn't about politeness but about logic and living in reality?

Of course it us. We've never demanded that you do. Our faith dies not have to be validated by you or anyone else. It's our faith. You dont have to tell us it's real or agree with us that Jesus is Lord or anything. What you chose to do with our faith is up to you.

I can see us only limiting freedom of religion to those religions which can demonstrate the objective reality of their beliefs, the rest don't need to be "validate"d by legal protections.

I thin you are confused about what legal protections mean.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It's not a large claim to say that a doctor diagnoses and treats their patient.

Normally? Sure. Unfortunately, in this situation, one need not be suffering from "gender dysphoria" for treatment.

Even worse, it doesn't appear that the Affirmative Care Model is about diagnosing the patient....but more like the patient diagnosing themselves.

There are bad medical practices all over. For example the pain killer "Pill Mills" who give everyone that comes in painkillers. I'm sure that goes on for many medications.

Right....and there were plenty of indicators that it was widespread. We can also sat the same thing about Ritalin and Adderall being overprescribed to children.

It would be nice to imagine that there's a careful and serious diagnosis of whatever problems someone has when seeking help at a gender clinic most of the time but unfortunately....there's plenty of indicators that's not what is happening at all.

WHy should they have to struggle to get medication? I don't struggle to get mine unless I wanted an addictive medication. That's where people often get denied.

Well we don't want to do permanent damage to someone's health....so it would seem as if these medications should only be handed out when all other possible explanations for whatever the patient is experiencing are ruled out. Puberty blockers have been shown to be sterilizing children. HRT causes or impeded physical changes in the body that cannot be undone. Children cannot even consent to these treatments and they aren't approved by the FDA for children.....so for those reasons and others I would expect it to extremely difficult to obtain them for anyone under 18.

Anecdotes are evidence that things do happen; it's not worthless data.

It's not data we can reasonably generalize about though....which is why actual data would be much more helpful.

It just doesn't show a nationwide picture Evidence that you are wrong about what exactly. We have gone back and forth on many aspects of this phenomenon.

Evidence that I'm wrong about the ease at which someone can obtain permanently life altering medications. I posted a link to a service which allows these drugs to be distributed over the phone.....without so much as an in person interview.

I don't think anyone should be turned done for medical treatment of any kind.

Then what is the diagnosis for? What exactly are you arguing?

If I'm telling you that patients are walking into clinics and walking out with prescriptions.....

....and you don't think people should be turned down for medical treatment of any kind....

Then what exactly is your position? That there's some careful process of diagnosing the patient....but there shouldn't be,
and the patient should just get whatever they want?

Again, children can't even consent to these treatments and they aren't approved by the Food And Drug Administration. Surely you don't think they should get whatever treatment they want???

I still think you may have the mindset that transgender tendencies are a character defect rather than a medical condition.

I think you've been so thoroughly indoctrinated by the political activists that you don't think anyone who believes they are trans can possibly be wrong.

I know that's one of the mantras they've pushed dogmatically onto the public and it's factually incorrect.

Just like people have reported and whistleblown about pill mills.

Right. It seems like when a problem is identified, the next appropriate step would be to assess just how widespread the problem is and what the causes are. Dismissing the existence of pill mills and doctors overprescribing pain medications as extremely rare and uncommon within the medical community is part of what allowed large pharmaceutical companies to create a nationwide opioid epidemic.

Surely you think it would have been better if once these pill mills were discovered....a large scale evaluation of the problem was conducted and widespread changes were made regarding the prescription of opioids?

Doctors tend to cover other doctor's rear ends. That could have something to do with it. Also, I think they keep more documentation on who is receiving treatment than who is being denied treatment.

I'm not talking about examining the life story of everyone going into a clinic.

I'm simply asking for the percentage of people (particularly children) who are going into gender clinics because they believe they are trans....and after the "diagnosis".....how many are diagnosed as experiencing "gender dysphoria" (even though it's not a diagnosis required for treatment) vs how many are told they aren't experiencing "gender dysphoria"?

Because even though a small number of children claim to experience gender dysphoria....of those children, somewhere between 75-85% of those children "desist" and their gender dysphoria resolves itself without any medical treatment or transitioning or social affirmation at all by the time they're 18-25.

One would expect that the majority of children entering these clinics are denied drugs and surgery thanks to an accurate and reliable diagnostic method. It may not be a number as high as 75-85%....but it definitely shouldn't be something like 15% or lower. If it is, then it would appear that....

1. There's a serious problem with the method of diagnosis being far too unreliable.

Or....

2. There's some external factors influencing doctors to misdiagnose their patients (money, lack of properly following the diagnostic model, political pressure, patients being dishonest during diagnosis, etc).

Or...

3. There's a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of the condition itself. This leads to not only a wrong diagnosis but a wrong diagnostic model and wrong treatment and none can be replaced/fixed without a full reconceptualizing of the problem.

 

[rjs330]

You also seem to have not of hears of respecting someone's wishes due to your own hangups and judgement

When did respecting someone wishes become doing what someone demands?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Really? Do you go on vacation to a secluded island during late December?

I don't think that when a Christian refers to their "personal relationship with God" they mean Santa.

I'll admit that I may be wrong though....and if any Christian here does believe Santa Claus = God....feel free to speak up.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You also seem to have not of hears of respecting someone's wishes due to your own hangups and judgement

Which wishes are you referring to here?

Control over the words I speak?

I've got no problem admitting I have serious "hangups" over being able to express myself as I see fit. I'd also readily admit that anyone who believes they have any business attempting to control the words I speak tends to be someone who I "judge" in a very negative light....

Are those the "hangups" and "judgment" you were referring to? Or were you thinking of something else?