SC Senate Passes Bill Banning Affirmative Care For Minors

[rjs330]

What I really emphasized was that you must have a diagnosis and treatment plan.

Your either backtracking now or you just weren't clear enough. Maybe that's it. Bottom line is you just need to say your trans and the doc will affirm it and your get your care paid for. Just like we said, so I don't know what you are arguing about anymore.

People who have not transitioned yet are typically diagnosed with gender dysphoria. There is no way insurance will pay for treatment of a condition that is not medical.

Some are some aren't. They are not typically diagnosed with dysphoria. Most are just affirmed. That's all it takes. There is no one that goes into an Affirmative Care doc that claims to be trans that is NOT given treatment. They all are. Rhats what Affirmative Care is. Don't you get that?

You probably should just keep your personal opinion

My opinion is based upon scientific reality and the research found in European medical fields and psychologists who are in the gender field who are up to date. My opinons.are.much more up to date than yours are.

Everyone gets their own diagnosis and choice of treatment.

Not under Affirmative Care they don't.

What is your alternative to treating someone for the symptoms they have?

I've given you the alternative. You obviously aren't reading. O k oe far more about Affirmative Care than you do at this point. Especially when you toss out the nonsense you do regarding alternatives. You obviously haven't read anything g about the ending of Arrirmative Care in other countries tries and why.

There is a reason why conversion therapy is most often not covered by insurance. 1) it doesn't;t work. and 2) it can make the mental health of the "patient" much worse

Your the ONLY one who has brought up conversion therapy. So I do t know why you are going on and on about it.

There is no need fr treatment if there is no disorder.

Exactly. Then why alis everyone being treated as if they have the disorder then? Affirmative Care rates everyone as if they have it. No one is finding out if they do or don't under that model. The treatment plan is always as dar as the patient wants to go. Because the doctors don't really know what is needed. The patient decides and the doctor says okay. The doctor has no idea if it's the right thing to do or not. Because there is no way to determine that.

 

[rjs330]

don't have to believe that they are what they think in order to support them against what appears to be prejudice

I know, it's completely prejudicial to want to keep men out of womens spaces.

Most of my time here has been asking questions trying to find out what the prejudice is based on. I don't even have to support them to ask those questions because it has become a controversial public policy issue.

No it hasn't. It's been spent defending their right to not just feel.like a woman, but to be a woman. Because you support them entering women's spaces, and using pronouns assigned to women.

And you've defended the force of law and policy to.do.so.

 

[rturner76]

I’m sure he’s aware it’s 2024 and the 21st century.

Quite frankly, who cares what year it is? People always had mental disorders and fetishes. It’s nothing new.

Trans people screaming and demanding others accept their choices because “it’s 2024” makes no sense.

Well, the medical community doesn't see their desire as a "choice" any more than people "choosing" to be depressed or schizophrenic. So you can also take that attitude back to 1955 when people who were different had to hide in the closet or be beaten for being who they were. Maybe we should go back to the 30's when lynching was the fashion. We have a more accepting world now and medical studies that find out new information on a daily basis.

It doesn't mean you have to join them but it also doesn't mean you can deny them access to medical care.

EDIT: One more thing, aren't you screaming and demanding people live by your idea of morality? How is that different?

 

[rturner76]

Bottom line is you just need to say your trans and the doc will affirm it and your get your care paid for.

Some are some aren't. They are not typically diagnosed with dysphoria. Most are just affirmed. That's all it takes.

My opinion is based upon scientific reality

Not really, it's based more on how you think things should be. NTW what's wrong with American science. Aren't you a patriot?

Not under Affirmative Care they don't.

I think you are confused about what doctors do.

I've given you the alternative.

The only real-life alternate is conversion or denial of treatment.

Your the ONLY one who has brought up conversion therapy

That's how people are treated when their family denies their condition.

Exactly. Then why alis everyone being treated as if they have the disorder then?

Where you all are confused is thinking everyone is treated the same way. It's something that is worked out between doctors and patients, not people on a message board. What don't you understand about individuals getting treated for their individual needs? This isn't communist Russia nor is it a Quaker settlement. There are more colors than black and white. And your notion that sll someone has to do is say they are transgender and they go under the knife is pretty cavemanish. Just a question, have you ever spoken to a transgender person about this? If so, did they say that all transgender people desire the exact treatment?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Pretty much. At festival time trans women stage their own beauty pageant, the usual thing of ball gowns, bathing suits and talent shows. You take a look at those contestants and before long what their genitals are somehow doesn't seem so important. Best drag show I ever saw.

Well....let's take a little peek at what the word category means.

Definition of CATEGORY

any of several fundamental and distinct classes to which entities or concepts belong; a division within a system of classification… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Category is a noun that means...

any of several fundamental and distinct classes to which entities or concepts belong

I think the key words to consider are "fundamental" and "distinct".

Men and women are fundamental and distinct categories. One cannot be the other....or they would not be distinct. The aspects which make them distinct are the aspects fundamental to the categories.

The whole pseudo-cultish belief system that gender theorists ascribe to are....imo....ardently against the notion of categories. The don't want a fundamental distinct category of "men" or "women" to exist in anyone's mind. That's why you struggle to define the words. It's also why you are conflating "drag" and "transgender" because those aren't the same either. In fact, the proposition that there are "infinite" genders and sloppy attempts at historical revisionism like declaring eunuchs as "transgender" likewise demonstrates the hatred of objective truth, reality, and categories rather well.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well, the medical community doesn't see their desire as a "choice" any more than people "choosing" to be depressed or schizophrenic.

You've been conflating "gender dysphoria" and "being transgender" the entire thread....despite being corrected multiple times.

You're not really in any position to tell anyone what the medical community believes.

 

[BCP1928]

I know, it's completely prejudicial to want to keep men out of womens spaces.

Hard to say, since you haven't defined "women's spaces" I'm not sure I want you to. The use of a vaguely defined term like "women's spaces" taken together with the fantasy that the ultimate goal of trans women is to "get into" these "spaces" makes it sound decidedly creepy.

No it hasn't. It's been spent defending their right to not just feel.like a woman, but to be a woman.

No, I have been quite clear and consistent: a trans woman cannot become a biological woman. That is why, for example, I speculated about the creation of a gender category for them, as a way of lessening the agony for you having to include trans women in the same gender category as biological women.

Because you support them entering women's spaces, and using pronouns assigned to women.

Because? That doesn't follow at all. Just because I don't care if trans women enter "women's spaces" (whatever that means) doesn't mean that I support the idea that they are actually biological women.

And you've defended the force of law and policy to do so.

The pronoun thing? Sure, it's silly, but I'll do the pronouns. If my workplace decided that the linguistic gender for a trans woman is "she" then that's what I would use. I don't have to believe that a trans woman is a biological woman to do so.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You said something like all people who claim to be transgender get hormones.

If I recall correctly it was in the context of those transgender people who seek HRT from gender clinics or other specialists. There doesn't seem to be a significant group of people claiming to be transgender and refused these "treatments" because the "experts" disagree with the patients.

You mean deny that every case is different and handled by diagnosis and treatment by a doctor which may or may not be covered based on their insurance plan wich varies from state to state?

How many trans people are denied HRT, even though they want HRT, because the "experts" or "specialists" they see disagree on the gender of the patient?

 

[BCP1928]

Well....let's take a little peek at what the word category means.

Definition of CATEGORY

any of several fundamental and distinct classes to which entities or concepts belong; a division within a system of classification… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Category is a noun that means...

any of several fundamental and distinct classes to which entities or concepts belong

I think the key words to consider are "fundamental" and "distinct".

Men and women are fundamental and distinct categories. One cannot be the other....or they would not be distinct. The aspects which make them distinct are the aspects fundamental to the categories.

That would mean that "trans woman" and 'trans man" are also categories. The question is, what pronouns shall we use for them?

The whole pseudo-cultish belief system that gender theorists ascribe to are....imo....ardently against the notion of categories. The don't want a fundamental distinct category of "men" or "women" to exist in anyone's mind. That's why you struggle to define the words. It's also why you are conflating "drag" and "transgender" because those aren't the same either. In fact, the proposition that there are "infinite" genders and sloppy attempts at historical revisionism like declaring eunuchs as "transgender" likewise demonstrates the hatred of objective truth, reality, and categories rather well.

You really have to go out of your way to put that construction on anything I've written here. Yes, I do know the difference between transgender and drag. At the very least, transgender is a noun and drag an adjective.

 

[RileyG]

Well, the medical community doesn't see their desire as a "choice" any more than people "choosing" to be depressed or schizophrenic. So you can also take that attitude back to 1955 when people who were different had to hide in the closet or be beaten for being who they were. Maybe we should go back to the 30's when lynching was the fashion. We have a more accepting world now and medical studies that find out new information on a daily basis.

It doesn't mean you have to join them but it also doesn't mean you can deny them access to medical care.

EDIT: One more thing, aren't you screaming and demanding people live by your idea of morality? How is that different?

Nope, I’m not. I just don’t want to call actual men women or vice versa. If they want to pretend to be women, that’s their choice. I choose to live in reality.

I never said dysphoria is a choice. Getting surgery and hormones IS.

 

[rturner76]

Men and women are fundamental and distinct categories. One cannot be the other....or they would not be distinct. The aspects which make them distinct are the aspects fundamental to the categories.

Great, you know what category means

The whole pseudo-cultish belief system that gender theorists ascribe to are....imo....ardently against the notion of categories.

And you have me medical doctorate or PhD tat has proven your little theory right? You are a layman, leave it up to the medical professionals. Oh I forgot, you know more than any medical or psychological professional because you have an opinion on this issue. You're not a doctor so why do you think you have the credentials to diagnose anything? 1955 mentality again. You are a white male so you are incapable of error and everything you say is universal law. Point taken.

 

[rturner76]

If I recall correctly it was in the context of those transgender people who seek HRT from gender clinics or other specialists. There doesn't seem to be a significant group of people claiming to be transgender and refused these "treatments" because the "experts" disagree with the patients.

How do you know? Have you spoken with these people?

How many trans people are denied HRT, even though they want HRT, because the "experts" or "specialists" they see disagree on the gender of the patient?

I have no idea. Why don't you try to find information on every trans identifying person's individual treatment plan? You still don't seem to see people as individuals with individual need and you seem to think that every trans identifying person seeks the exact same treatment. You are aware the people are individuals and have individual needs correct?

BTW why are you so passionate that trans people not receive treatment? See, we're back to the 50s again where people just ignored their problems in order to keep up appearances. Front Page News. This is 2024 where we have much more data on what is and what isn't effective. We no longer group all people of one kind into the same category and give them the same treatment. Treatment for this disorder is as individual as the patients.

 

[rturner76]

If I recall correctly it was in the context of those transgender people who seek HRT from gender clinics or other specialists. There doesn't seem to be a significant group of people claiming to be transgender and refused these "treatments" because the "experts" disagree with the patients.

What have I said all along.....their treatment is between them and their doctor. Nobody knows but them when and if they will be allowed HRT. It could be after it has been determined the they are in x stage of their development. It could be when they reach z in their individual treatment plan. The notion that one can just sign into an appointment and leave under HRT treatment is not typical. THere is an overall treatment plan that may or may not include hormones. BTE, why is it so important to you that trans identifying people NOT receive hormone treatment?

How many trans people are denied HRT, even though they want HRT, because the "experts" or "specialists" they see disagree on the gender of the patient?

I have no idea because medical files are confidential. So are you now a "expert" or "specialist" who can decide when it is appropriate to prescribe them?

 

[rturner76]

Nope, I’m not. I just don’t want to call actual men women or vice versa.

Why not if someone is living as a woman why is it so difficult to call them one? I assume it's because of your religious beliefs (which I share many of) but is it so detrimental to be polite?

If they want to pretend to be women, that’s their choice. I choose to live in reality.

Right, so you call yourself whatever you want to but why not extend them the common courtesy of calling them a woman if that is what they identify as and live as. It's not about making sure you stigmatize or embarrass them, it's about haveing respect. Do you feel you are violating your religious beliefs by respecting their choice? That would make sense but it wouldn't be very neighborly and it wouldn't show that you have much love or respect for that particular neighbor. One more thing, does this issue come up often for you in your day-to-day life or are you just projecting what you would call a transgender person if you met one? Personally, I don't care if someone wants to be called Mickey Mouse and they wear Micky Mouse ears every day. I would just respect their wishes rather than try to teach them who they really are.

I never said dysphoria is a choice. Getting surgery and hormones IS.

True. Do you hate them for doing so? Should you apply your worldview to everyone else's life?

 

[Ana the Ist]

That would mean that "trans woman" and 'trans man" are also categories. The question is, what pronouns shall we use for them?

Sure...I'd accept the idea that "trans man/woman" are distinct categories. A trans man isn't a trans woman and vice versa.

You really have to go out of your way to put that construction on anything I've written.

You had absolute free reign over what examples you gave to prop up your claim lol. I didn't choose drag and transgender....you did. There's no reason to be upset with me for pointing those aren't the same thing.

 

[Ana the Ist]

What have I said all along.....their treatment is between them and their doctor.

Well you seem to be making some very large claims about the "diagnosis" and "treatment" that happens when a person goes to a gender clinic asking for pills.

Now all of a sudden.....you don't know what happens. Is it safe to say you're beliefs are just a bunch of assumptions at this point?

Nobody knows but them when and if they will be allowed HRT.

Well many have spoken up about the ease and swiftness (even sometimes making it sound as if there's pressure for them to begin treatment) of obtaining these medications.

Conversely....apart from those places where prescribing these medications to children is illegal....it's difficult to find examples of trans people struggling to obtain these medications when they have the means and desire to.

So are you now a "expert" or "specialist" who can decide when it is appropriate to prescribe them?

No....I simply have anecdotes. I'll admit I could be wrong, if someone presented the evidence that am I...I'll gladly acknowledge it....but it appears that you don't have any.

 

[Ana the Ist]

How do you know? Have you spoken with these people?

Many people who have gone through with these treatments and later stopped or regretted it have spoken up. Others in these gender clinics have leaked information or whistleblown on the industry.

Of course, these alone don't prove what happens across the entire medical community....but the medical community hasn't exactly done anything to disprove the notion that these incidents are even extremely common let alone the standard.

Imagine for a moment that you had a worker at the gender clinic who claimed they'd never seen anyone turned down for treatment.....you'd think the medical community would do more than merely deny it, right? You think they'd at least provide statistics for how many people came in claiming to be transgender and were denied treatment because the experts disagreed with them.

That's information they could make publicly available to disprove these accusations....and since it can be done anonymously there's literally nothing preventing them from releasing that information....but they never release it.

It leads one with a sound mind and basic logical faculties to conclude that releasing that information may in fact support the accusations.

 

[RileyG]

Why not if someone is living as a woman why is it so difficult to call them one? I assume it's because of your religious beliefs (which I share many of) but is it so detrimental to be polite?

Right, so you call yourself whatever you want to but why not extend them the common courtesy of calling them a woman if that is what they identify as and live as. It's not about making sure you stigmatize or embarrass them, it's about haveing respect. Do you feel you are violating your religious beliefs by respecting their choice? That would make sense but it wouldn't be very neighborly and it wouldn't show that you have much love or respect for that particular neighbor. One more thing, does this issue come up often for you in your day-to-day life or are you just projecting what you would call a transgender person if you met one? Personally, I don't care if someone wants to be called Mickey Mouse and they wear Micky Mouse ears every day. I would just respect their wishes rather than try to teach them who they really are.

True. Do you hate them for doing so? Should you apply your worldview to everyone else's life?

They aren’t women, though. Just because they “live as a woman” doesn’t make them one. They’re still men and I’m not going to validate their delusion.

No. It’s not about politeness. It’s about logic and living in reality.

It’s rather hypocritical for a trans person to scream to call them the other gender when they can’t accept how they were biologically born.

No. I do not have to respect their choice.

Sorry, that’s just how I see it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

They aren’t women, though. Just because they “live as a woman” doesn’t make them one. They’re still men and I’m not going to validate their delusion.

No. It’s not about politeness. It’s about logic and living in reality.

It’s rather hypocritical for a trans person to scream to call them the other gender when they can’t accept how they were biologically born.

No. I do not have to respect their choice.

Sorry, that’s just how I see it.

Do you find it at all weird that the concept of "politeness" is being equated with lying?

It's not that I can't imagine a situation where being polite and lying are the same. If you're at a party or something where a couple who recently became parents bring their baby to show to everyone......I can imagine the possibility of being asked if the baby is cute, like "Isn't he just adorable?" and in that situation, even if the baby is extremely ugly....it would be polite to simply agree even if you disagree.

If however, an activist group of parents of ugly babies were campaigning to radically alter societal norms of what is considered a cute baby.....we're not exactly being polite by playing along and lying to all of them all the time. If they were arguing that the baby should be considered an adult....because adulthood is a social construct and babies should be allowed to drink alcohol, smoke, drive cars, buy guns, and vote....it's not polite to go "sure....I agree with your crazy opinions" just because some feelings might get hurt if we were honest. This doesn't seem polite to me at all....and it doesn't change because the baby or parents are part of some statistical minority either.

 

[BCP1928]

Sure...I'd accept the idea that "trans man/woman" are distinct categories. A trans man isn't a trans woman and vice versa.

And a trans man isn't a biological man and a trans woman isn't a biological woman.

You had absolute free reign over what examples you gave to prop up your claim lol. I didn't choose drag and transgender....you did. There's no reason to be upset with me for pointing those aren't the same thing.

No, I was just pointing out that I have never equated drag and transgender. To say so is a lie, as is attributing to me the rest of the nonsense in that paragraph.