Offending Others

[concretecamper]

Hi there.
I'm trying to understand your point.
Is that to say no one should try to teach anyone the truth, or use God's word to try to help anyone, because no one knows that they know the truth? Or is there another point you are making?
Can you clarify please. Thanks.

Your original post presupposes that you understand and that you apply the scriptures correctly. I'm just asking how are you so sure you are correct.

 

[GospelS]

Now, the man is in a desert, headed for what seems to be certain death.

That's not the end. We have power over death in Jesus. If after all my efforts, that's where the man is still headed, then I let him be. If I keep fishing for him, then he may never learn how to fish for himself.

This is like the parable of the Prodigal son. The father knows all things and let his son go, with a heavy heart, praying and waiting for his return. Trusting God and allowing the time to take it's course so that the real salvation may come.

Sometimes we may need to let people face their own death, their own sin. It is the Law of God working in them as Paul explains in Romans 7. This certain death of the man may be necessary for him to die to sin and to the law.

I won't be worried because I know who My Father is and I know who I'm in Christ. With God's permission and authority, I know that the Christ in me can raise the man even from death and hades. This is the whole gospel.

It will be much more glorious after brining him back to life. As the man will now at least see for himself how God tried to save him and how blind and disobedient he was. He will understand what truth really is and that there was no offence.

Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5.

 

[CoreyD]

Your original post presupposes that you understand and that you apply the scriptures correctly. I'm just asking how are you so sure you are correct.

The OP does indicate that it's possible to know when someone is misapplying the scriptures. That is not a presupposition.
What you are asking me, is how do I know that someone is misapplying the scriptures rather than it being me misapplying the scriptures.
My question was a leading one. It was supposed to lead you to the answer as suggested by @St_Worm2.

My question was... Is that to say no one should try to teach anyone the truth, or use God's word to try to help anyone, because no one knows that they know the truth? Or is there another point you are making?

I asked, because, Jesus knew that persons were misapplying the scriptures. No one would ask Jesus how he knows that it is not him misapplying the scripture, right.
The disciples knew when persons misapplied the scriptures. How did the disciples know that it was not them misapplying the scriptures?
That's another leading question, which I'll answer, because I don't think it would be fair to you to not answer your question. You might think I am avoiding answering.

The answer is found a number of scriptures.
Acts 17:10-12

10 As soon as night had fallen, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went into the Jewish synagogue​

11 Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true.​

12 As a result, many of them believed, along with quite a few prominent Greek women and men.​

How did the Bereans know that Paul and Silas were not misapplying scripture?
They examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true.
In other words, the scriptures spoke for itself, and persons could see the truth therein, when they used the same method Paul used earlier in his arguments with religious people.

Acts 17:2-4
2 And according to Paul’s custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and pointing out [scriptural evidence] that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I am proclaiming to you, is the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed).”
4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, along with a great multitude of the God-fearing Greeks and not a few of the leading women.

Paul used the scriptures - cross referencing them, to show clearly that what he was saying was true. The scriptures verified that what Paul was saying was true.

Perhaps you took note that on both these occasions, persons having scriptural evidence, became believers.
There are many other scriptures that make the same point, which is, that all Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:16

So rather than it be a case that the scriptures are so useless in teaching the truth, and correcting falsehood, so that people can take it and treat it anyway they like, saying that they need to interpret it, and their interpretation is just as good as the other person's, or no one really knows the correct interpretation... anyone who has a sincere heart see that the scriptures do not support that view.
It's an invalidating of God's word.

I hope that answers your question.
I tried to be as clear as possible, and leave no gaps.
I use the scriptures. If you read all my posts, I reference scriptures, and when persons cannot dispute those scriptures, or address them, the do like the Pharisees that Christ questioned. They refuse to answer simple questions, and just keep stating their belief, and similar things.
When one does that, they make manifest what is in their heart, and they know what they are doing - misapplying the scriptures, to suit "their interpretation".

Jesus and the apostles don't take that lightly, Neither does any of Jesus followers today.
In defining love, Paul said at 1 Corinthians 13:6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

2 Corinthians 10:4-6 (New Living Translation)

We use God’s mighty weapons, not worldly weapons, to knock down the strongholds of human reasoning and to destroy false arguments.
We destroy every proud obstacle that keeps people from knowing God. We capture their rebellious thoughts and teach them to obey Christ.
And after you have become fully obedient, we will punish everyone who remains disobedient.​

LOL That's an interesting translation.
Lets just leave it at "punish all disobedience".

Can I ask you a question. Do you believe there are true followers on earth and do you think the scriptures clearly identify them?
Thank you for your question.

 

[CoreyD]

That's not the end. We have power over death in Jesus. If after all my efforts, that's where the man is still headed, then I let him be. If I keep fishing for him, then he may never learn how to fish for himself.

This is like the parable of the Prodigal son. The father knows all things and let his son go, with a heavy heart, praying and waiting for his return. Trusting God and allowing the time to take it's course so that the real salvation may come.

Sometimes we may need to let people face their own death, their own sin. It is the Law of God working in them as Paul explains in Romans 7. This certain death of the man may be necessary for him to die to sin and to the law.

I won't be worried because I know who My Father is and I know who I'm in Christ. With God's permission and authority, I know that the Christ in me can raise the man even from death and hades. This is the whole gospel.

It will be much more glorious after brining him back to life. As the man will now at least see for himself how God tried to save him and how blind and disobedient he was. He will understand what truth really is and that there was no offence.

Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5.

Thank you.
Does "all your effort" include telling him the truth, even if he is offended?

 

[GospelS]

Thank you.
Does "all your effort" include telling him the truth, even if he is offended?

Yes. He is offended. I have not offended him. I told what I should. I told what I'm directed to tell.

 

[Hazelelponi]

View attachment 348669

The analogy
A blind man has lost his way.
You tried to steer him on the right path, but he stubbornly refused to hear you. He became deaf to your words.
Now, the man is in a desert, headed for what seems to be certain death.
Should you tell him what's ahead of him and try to point it out as clearly and directly as possible, or should you just let him be, because you do not want to "offend" him?

The actual situation
You realize that someone is misunderstanding and misapplying the scriptures.
You try to in the most loving way, share scriptures and reason on them, with the hope that they will consider these scriptures in light of what they believe, and adjust to what is scripturally clear.
They however, stubbornly stick to what they believe.
Should you show them scriptures that directly and clearly reveal the folly of their belief, or let them be?

I try to be balanced in how I apply Jesus' example, as well as his followers, when talking to religious people.
Is Jesus response at Matthew 15:3-20 to this situation a good one to follow, or should we never do similar, lest we offend persons?
The disciples perhaps thought that Jesus should have taken a different approach.
Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you realize you offended the Pharisees by what you just said?” Matthew 15:12
See Jesus response at Matthew 15:13, 14

What do you think, and what would you do in the situation?

I think your example is too general to say what I would do.

I ran into someone, an every Sunday pew sitter, within a couple months of my being saved who said she didn't know if she was going to heaven or even what heaven might be like.

I wanted to tell her so many things in that moment but being a new Christian (and her knowing my background) but comparing my newness to her lifetime of pewsitting I honestly didn't believe it was something I could address with her then, though everything in me wanted to sit and explain.

I started buying her books and gift giving what I thought would be helpful instead.

Every single situation is different that we might run into. A well versed person who was 20 years in the faith could have done then what I didn't feel I could.

On the other hand, my talking to others about my new faith had benefits for others at times too.

The longer we are saved, the more knowledgeable we are of Scriptures, the more confidence we have to address what needs addressed to those around us and likely the more latitude we have to say the offensive things, because by then we know how do say things the right way.

Or am I off track and not understanding the direction your wanting to take the thread?

 

[jacks]

Should you tell him what's ahead of him and try to point it out as clearly and directly as possible, or should you just let him be, because you do not want to "offend" him?

This has been an interesting thread. Going back to your original question, I would now say, you should go ahead and tell them as clearly as possible without worrying about offending them.

Before I was a Christian, I had multiple encounters with people sharing the Gospel. Some where fire and brimstone, some were very subtle and some only evangelized with their actions. I can't say which approach brought me to the Lord. I tend to think I was more influenced by subtle ones, but I don't and can't know if they would have been effective without the more direct preacher's input as well. (And of course I can't extrapolate my experience to everyone else.) As long as we are doing it out of love and for the good of the person we are speaking with; I think that there is a place for all kinds of sharing and we shouldn't put limits on each other on how it is done.

 

[CoreyD]

I think your example is too general to say what I would do.

I ran into someone, an every Sunday pew sitter, within a couple months of my being saved who said she didn't know if she was going to heaven or even what heaven might be like.

I wanted to tell her so many things in that moment but being a new Christian (and her knowing my background) but comparing my newness to her lifetime of pewsitting I honestly didn't believe it was something I could address with her then, though everything in me wanted to sit and explain.

I started buying her books and gift giving what I thought would be helpful instead.

Every single situation is different that we might run into. A well versed person who was 20 years in the faith could have done then what I didn't feel I could.

On the other hand, my talking to others about my new faith had benefits for others at times too.

The longer we are saved, the more knowledgeable we are of Scriptures, the more confidence we have to address what needs addressed to those around us and likely the more latitude we have to say the offensive things, because by then we know how do say things the right way.

Or am I off track and not understanding the direction your wanting to take the thread?

You are correct.
Every situation is different.
The one you mentioned is not what I am referring to.
However, I appreciate you sharing. No problem.
If you want to get a clear picture of the track I have taken, so that you can follow, just take a little time to go through the posts. It's not two full pages.
Thanks for sharing.

 

[CoreyD]

This has been an interesting thread. Going back to your original question, I would now say, you should go ahead and tell them as clearly as possible without worrying about offending them.

Thank you.

Before I was a Christian, I had multiple encounters with people sharing the Gospel. Some where fire and brimstone, some were very subtle and some only evangelized with their actions. I can't say which approach brought me to the Lord. I tend to think I was more influenced by subtle ones, but I don't and can't know if they would have been effective without the more direct preacher's input as well. (And of course I can't extrapolate my experience to everyone else.) As long as we are doing it out of love and for the good of the person we are speaking with; I think that there is a place for all kinds of sharing and we shouldn't put limits on each other on how it is done.

Have you ever tried to share with one who identifies as Christian, but has a view that is different to what you see in the Bible?

 

[jacks]

Have you ever tried to share with one who identifies as Christian, but has a view that is different to what you see in the Bible?

I can't really think of an instance where this has happened to me. Disagreements I've had with other Christians have always been on issues that I felt were of minor importance or ones we have no way of knowing for sure. May I ask what the issue was that inspired this thread? It must have been something you felt very strongly about. If you'd rather not say because it may open up a whole other can of worms, I understand.

 

[CoreyD]

I can't really think of an instance where this has happened to me. Disagreements I've had with other Christians have always been on issues that I felt were of minor importance or ones we have no way of knowing for sure.

Thank you for that.
Can you give me at least two examples of those disagreements you felt were of minor importance?

May I ask what the issue was that inspired this thread? It must have been something you felt very strongly about. If you'd rather not say because it may open up a whole other can of worms, I understand.

No problem. Feel free to ask anything. I don't mind releasing the poor worms at all.
Thanks for asking.

I feel strongly about the truth of God's word.
As regards the particulars, or specifics of that truth, I can give you a few examples.
I just created a thread. You can comment on that if you are interested, but then you can follow the link in the post, and read through the thread, for a number of example.

I hope you do read through the thread, because I really would like to hear your thoughts, on whether or not you consider these important "issues" in relation to truth.
I have lots more I can link, if you are interested.

 

[Diamond72]

What do you think, and what would you do in the situation?

We should give them the scripture if we feel it applies to their situation. It is up to the Holy Sprit of God to teach them the meaning of the Bible. They should not need us to teach them.

 

[CoreyD]

We should give them the scripture if we feel it applies to their situation. It is up to the Holy Sprit of God to teach them the meaning of the Bible. They should not need us to teach them.

I asked someone in another post, if they can think of scriptures which show we can study the scriptures for ourselves under the guidance and direction of the Holy Spirit.
Can you think of any, and share one with me? I'd really appreciate that. Thanks.

 

[Diamond72]

I asked someone in another post, if they can think of scriptures which show we can study the scriptures for ourselves under the guidance and direction of the Holy Spirit.
Can you think of any, and share one with me? I'd really appreciate that. Thanks.

John 14 26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you"

1 John 2 27 "As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him."

Jeremiah 31:34
No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more."

 

[CoreyD]

Thank you.

John 14 26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you"

The "you" and "your" there, refers to whom... unbelievers, and those whom have not been taught, or actual followers of Christ, whom have been taught?

1 John 2 27 "As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him."

Same question... The "you" there, refers to whom... unbelievers, and those whom have not been taught, or actual followers of Christ, whom have been taught?

Jeremiah 31:34
No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more."

Does this prophecy refer to those whom Jesus promised would would be annointed by holy spirit, as sons of God Romans 8:9-17 - heirs to the kingdom Galatians 3:29, or people who now need to learn - unbelievers?
Please refer to Acts 2:1-20, for the correct answer.

I have not come across any scripture that suggests an unbeliever, or one not taught either by Christ or the body of Christ, would be given holy spirit, to understand God's word.
Every individual had to be taught by the followers of Christ. This is the purpose of the preaching and teaching directed by Jesus, while, on earth, and while back in heaven.
Luke 8:1-3; Luke 10:1, 2;; Matthew 28:19, 20; Acts 4:19, 20; Acts 5:27-29; Acts 8:4; Acts 17:17

The book of Acts, along with Paul's letters contains many examples of how persons come to understand God's word. It is always through the preaching of a servant of God - a disciple of Christ, who is part of the Christian congregation - the body of Christ.
Here are just three examples.

Acts 8:26-29
26 Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is desert. 27 So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go near and overtake this chariot.”

Acts 10:1-5
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!”
4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, “What is it, lord?”
So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter.

Acts 16:9-15
9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night. A man of Macedonia stood and pleaded with him, saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” 10 Now after he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go to Macedonia, concluding that the Lord had called us to preach the gospel to them.
11 Therefore, sailing from Troas, we ran a straight course to Samothrace, and the next day came to Neapolis, 12 and from there to Philippi, which is the foremost city of that part of Macedonia, a colony. And we were staying in that city for some days. 13 And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there. 14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. 15 And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” So she persuaded us.

Have you seen scriptures that say otherwise?

 

[Diamond72]

The "you" and "your" there, refers to whom...

Jesus was answering a question from Judas (not Iscariot).

Same question... The "you" there, refers to whom

Here he is talking to the children.

 

[CoreyD]

Jesus was answering a question from Judas (not Iscariot).

... and Judas was... a disciple - a follower of Christ? Thank you.

Here he is talking to the children.

... and the children are... the disciples - followers of Christ? Thank you.

So, we agree.
In order for persons to understand God's word, they need to be taught by at least one of the disciples - a follower of Christ.
Thank you very much.

 

[Diamond72]

In order for persons to understand God's word, they need to be taught by at least one of the disciples - a follower of Christ.
Thank you very much.

I think all we need is the sermon on the mount. Jesus even sums that up into love God, love your neighbor and love yourself. He even teaches us to pray Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

 

[CoreyD]

I think all we need is the sermon on the mount. Jesus even sums that up into love God, love your neighbor and love yourself. He even teaches us to pray Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

Thanks for sharing what you think. What we think isn't important though. Would you agree?
For example, many persons think that religion is just travelling on different roads leading to life. Jesus said that is not true. Matthew 7:13, 14.
Does what people think matter, or do we accept what God's word teaches - the truth?

 

[Diamond72]

Does what people think matter, or do we accept what God's word teaches - the truth?

Jesus said: "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:40. Are you suggesting that there is a difference between subjective and objective when we read and study the Bible.?