Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Philip_B]

No...you made assertions about who that land belonged to....right?

We're going over who that land belonged to.

You may not want to admit it, you may not want to acknowledge it, but it's still the truth.


My view is that the locals gave their control over the land to the Ottomans. The Ottomans in turn gave it over to the British.

This isn't a matter of my opinion, or my perspective.....this is what actually happened. These are the facts.


They are far far more than your mere beliefs.

Interesting stance you take here. I made no assertions about ownership of land or territory, though there may be many that might be made. My asserting related to those who were living on/in/upon the land.

Indeed the British pretended to make undertakings to Faisal (and I guess Lawrence) and used the Palestinians (Arabs) to help defeat the Turkish, whilst the dealings were indeed duplicitous and were not undertakings they intended to honour, ever.

My problem is not that you make an assertion, but that you choose not to take into account a wider view, as that might challenge your simple solutions. Law is quite good a dealing with property and appalling at dealing with people. Law is good, however, it is not everything.

You can read all sorts of partial histories and come to all sorts of chosen conclusions, and indeed if you have reached those conclusions before examining history then that will help determine what you regard as important as history, to which you will assert the dubious honour of being described as facts.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Interesting stance you take here. I made no assertions about ownership of land or territory, though there may be many that might be made. My asserting related to those who were living on/in/upon the land.

The Palestinians are not intruders but rather the people who have tilled the soil and made their homes here. The Zionist movement of Europe and England from the late 19th century focussed on the idea that this land was given to the Jews by God in perpetuity. That has steadily grown be the idea that it was to be theirs exclusively.

It seems to me that claims of exclusivity of ownership/possession of the land are a more modern invention.

The approach taken by Lord Balfour which ultimately led to the Balfour Declaration was designed to discriminate against the Palestinian people, and this was redoubled by UN Security Council Resolution 242.

During the troubles in Ireland, one of the sayings that did the rounds was "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" It probably has some resonance in the current conflict as well.

Now...perhaps this isn't you suggesting that the Israeli people aren't the rightful owners of the land....perhaps you aren't suggesting the Palestinians aren't really terrorists but rather freedom fighters.

It sure looks that way though.

Indeed the British pretended to make undertakings to Faisal (and I guess Lawrence) and used the Palestinians (Arabs) to help defeat the Turkish, whilst the dealings were indeed duplicitous and were not undertakings they intended to honour, ever.

My problem is not that you make an assertion, but that you choose not to take into account a wider view, as that might challenge your simple solutions. Law is quite good a dealing with property and appalling at dealing with people. Law is good, however, it is not everything.

Uh huh....well I would actually argue that all land is owned according to 1 rule and 1 rule only....who can keep it?

All other laws are mere formalities. I try not to suggest this as the rule because people turn into crybabies whining that I'm somehow endorsing this rule....and I'm not.

I'm simply pointing out that it is the rule.

You can read all sorts of partial histories and come to all sorts of chosen conclusions, and indeed if you have reached those conclusions before examining history then that will help determine what you regard as important as history, to which you will assert the dubious honour of being described as facts.

Blah blah blah...don't look down your nose at me as if you know more of the history than I do. That's not an argument. Maybe you know more history....maybe you don't. The point is this is Israeli land. Jews originally bought it from its British owners. Perhaps you have some objection to the idea of buying land from the people who owned it and started a stable prosperous nation. Perhaps you're a big supporter of the old -fashioned "murder all the people you disagree with and sweep them from the land" before you create your nation. If so, well...Palestine tried that too....along with their nearest and dearest neighbors....and they lost.

At that point....it's pretty generous of Israel to give Palestinians anything, and you'd think they'd chill out a little bit. Nope. Not these children of Allah. They'd rather commit two intifadas, force the Israelis to impose some rather harsh rules for their own safety, and then complain for the next 30 years or so about the harsh rules....while launching rockets, mortars, and gunfire into Israel rather continuously for those decades.

Anyway, regardless of how you prefer the Palestinians conduct themselves...the good news is that the mistakes of the past appear to be soon rectified. That whole sweep your enemies from the land appears to be the method Israel has adopted....wholeheartedly...and then they can finally be a nation you respect.

 

[ralliann]

Now...perhaps this isn't you suggesting that the Israeli people aren't the rightful owners of the land....perhaps you aren't suggesting the Palestinians aren't really terrorists but rather freedom fighters.

It sure looks that way though.



Uh huh....well I would actually argue that all land is owned according to 1 rule and 1 rule only....who can keep it?

All other laws are mere formalities. I try not to suggest this as the rule because people turn into crybabies whining that I'm somehow endorsing this rule....and I'm not.

I'm simply pointing out that it is the rule.




Blah blah blah...don't look down your nose at me as if you know more of the history than I do. That's not an argument. Maybe you know more history....maybe you don't. The point is this is Israeli land. Jews originally bought it from its British owners. Perhaps you have some objection to the idea of buying land from the people who owned it and started a stable prosperous nation. Perhaps you're a big supporter of the old -fashioned "murder all the people you disagree with and sweep them from the land" before you create your nation. If so, well...Palestine tried that too....along with their nearest and dearest neighbors....and they lost.

At that point....it's pretty generous of Israel to give Palestinians anything, and you'd think they'd chill out a little bit. Nope. Not these children of Allah. They'd rather commit two intifadas, force the Israelis to impose some rather harsh rules for their own safety, and then complain for the next 30 years or so about the harsh rules....while launching rockets, mortars, and gunfire into Israel rather continuously for those decades.

Anyway, regardless of how you prefer the Palestinians conduct themselves...the good news is that the mistakes of the past appear to be soon rectified. That whole sweep your enemies from the land appears to be the method Israel has adopted....wholeheartedly...and then they can finally be a nation you respect.

How on earth can there be peace with people like this? You can't! This is what Israel has been and still is up against.....

 

[wing2000]

My view is that the war is as winnable as the Vietnam War was, and that it will ultimately be lost on the streets of Washington and Tel Aviv

....on the streets of Gaza.

Without a plan to hold, secure and govern Gaza, the war will never be won.
It seems Israel did not learn from the war with Hezbolah.....just as the US did not learn from Viet Nam.
The retired Israeli General I quoted is spot on.

 

[ralliann]

....on the streets of Gaza.

Without a plan to hold, secure and govern Gaza, the war will never be won.
It seems Israel did not learn from the war with Hezbolah.....just as the US did not learn from Viet Nam.
The retired Israeli General I quoted is spot on.

It will be won. Israel has a superior military.

 

[Ana the Ist]

....on the streets of Gaza.

Without a plan to hold, secure and govern Gaza, the war will never be won.
It seems Israel did not learn from the war with Hezbolah.....just as the US did not learn from Viet Nam.
The retired Israeli General I quoted is spot on.

What exactly makes you think they won't hold Gaza?

 

[wing2000]

What exactly makes you think they won't hold Gaza?

Hold as in secure an area already won. In recent weeks, the IDF had to go back into northern Gaza as Hamas back in the area. The fact is the IDF does not have the man power to secure all of Gaza without calling back the reserves, which it can't affford to do.

 

[Ana the Ist]

A quick check shows Gaza is one of the most densely populated regions on the planet....with roughly 15,600 people per square mile. I'm not sure what sort of tactics could be used in fighting Gaza that don't involve targeting densely populated areas.

Seems like a weak criticism.





No surprise there.





I don't think he'll keep this promise.




Is the shipment still frozen?

I heard it was just paused.




Optics. Those arms will be shipped.

Called it....arms shipment is back on.

 

[wing2000]

Israel Defense Forces (IDF) Chief of Staff Major General Herzi Halevi over the weekend reportedly criticized Netanyahu’s strategy. “As long as there is no political move that will bring forth a governing body other than Hamas in the strip, we will have to operate again and again there and in other places to dismantle the Hamas infrastructure,” Israel’s Channel 13 cited Halevi as saying. “It will be a Sisyphean task,” he said, suggesting that it may never be accomplished.

Senior IDF officials have urged the prime minister to make decisions and formulate a strategy for the war, Channel 13 added.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/israel-restarts-fighting-north-gaza-military-strategy-mime-intl/index.html

 

[Ana the Ist]

Hold as in secure an area already won.

Still early. I'd suggest you pay attention to Russia in the Ukraine. They had gains...losses....and now gains again. The simple fact of the matter is once the majority of the population has exited Gaza completely, the problem of "holding ground" mostly solves itself.

In recent weeks, the IDF had to go back into northern Gaza as Hamas back in the area. The fact is the IDF does not have the man power to secure all of Gaza without calling back the reserves, which it can't affford to do.

All of Gaza can be "held" with 5000 soldiers. It's the size of Washington DC. You just need to hold the Egyptian border, and place patrols at key points.

This is a clearing out of Gaza. Mark my words. Just like I told you those arms and munitions wouldn't be paused indefinitely....the Palestinians are being systematically removed from Gaza permanently.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Israel Defense Forces (IDF) Chief of Staff Major General Herzi Halevi over the weekend reportedly criticized Netanyahu’s strategy. “As long as there is no political move that will bring forth a governing body other than Hamas in the strip, we will have to operate again and again there and in other places to dismantle the Hamas infrastructure,” Israel’s Channel 13 cited Halevi as saying. “It will be a Sisyphean task,” he said, suggesting that it may never be accomplished.

Senior IDF officials have urged the prime minister to make decisions and formulate a strategy for the war, Channel 13 added.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/israel-restarts-fighting-north-gaza-military-strategy-mime-intl/index.html

Consider what you're posting and also consider the general principle that anything either side of a war presents in media is indeed propaganda.

You either have an Israeli general complaining that the conflict is unwinnable (which isn't what he's saying) or he's complaining that "someone other than Hamas" should take over control of Gaza politically....to shorten the conflict.

He's laying the groundwork for a full scale Gaza takeover imo.

 

[JosephZ]

All of Gaza can be "held" with 5000 soldiers. It's the size of Washington DC. You just need to hold the Egyptian border, and place patrols at key points.

Gaza would require between 40,000 and 50,000 permanent troops to keep it secure.

 

[wing2000]

Still early. I'd suggest you pay attention to Russia in the Ukraine. They had gains...losses....and now gains again. The simple fact of the matter is once the majority of the population has exited Gaza completely, the problem of "holding ground" mostly solves itself.

The key difference being Russia has a plan to secure and govern the areas it captures. Isreal has none. Without a political strategy, the IDF will be stuck for years....

All of Gaza can be "held" with 5000 soldiers. It's the size of Washington DC. You just need to hold the Egyptian border, and place patrols at key points.

....not securely held. Hamas will continue as an insurgent group, even while having its capabilities greatly reduced.

This is a clearing out of Gaza. Mark my words. Just like I told you those arms and munitions wouldn't be paused indefinitely....the Palestinians are being systematically removed from Gaza permanently.

Well, the Biden did state it was a pause. It was never described as an indefinite pause.

 

[essentialsaltes]

It will be won. Israel has a superior military.

They certainly will have an easy time of killing thousands of people for as long as they choose to do so. 'Winning the war'? Not so much.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Jewish staffer resigns from Biden administration over 'genocide in Gaza'​

Lily Greenberg Call, special assistant to the chief of staff in the Interior Department, cited her Jewish upbringing and ties to Israel in her resignation letter. She wrote that her family escaped antisemitic persecution in Europe and came to the United States...

“I can no longer in good conscience continue to represent this administration amidst President Biden’s disastrous, continued support for Israel’s genocide in Gaza,” Greenberg Call wrote. Israel strongly denies that its actions in Gaza amount to genocide.

“My Jewish identity is the most important part of who I am, and it is all of the values that I was raised with … and all of my Jewish education, 20 years of it, that led me to this decision, and it’s how I know this is right,” Greenberg Call said. “What Israel is doing to people in Gaza and to Palestinians across the land is incredibly un-Jewish to me and such a disgrace to our ancestors.”

Greenberg Call wrote that she grew up in Jewish communities in the United States and Israel, and that people in her community lost loved ones in the Oct. 7 Hamas attack. She said that she is “terrified” by rising antisemitism but that “I am certain that the answer to this is not to collectively punish millions of innocent Palestinians through displacement, famine, and ethnic cleansing.”

--

U.S. military anchors floating pier to Gaza, set to begin aid effort​

President Biden said the operation will help alleviate a grave humanitarian crisis, but critics fear it will put U.S. troops at risk.

U.S. Central Command, which oversees military operations in the region, said in a message that the pier was anchored about 7:40 a.m. in Gaza. Deliveries are “expected to begin moving ashore in the coming days,” the message said, with no U.S. troops on the ground.

Israeli forces are expected to provide security around the site with personnel from a third country — still undisclosed by U.S. officials — driving the trucks ashore.

In late April, the shoreside staging ground for the pier was hit by mortar fire, Pentagon officials said. Maj. Gen. Patrick Ryder, a Pentagon spokesman, said then that the attack caused “minimal damage” to a “marshaling area” and that U.S. troops building the pier were “nowhere near” the location that was attacked.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The key difference being Russia has a plan to secure and govern the areas it captures. Isreal has none. Without a political strategy, the IDF will be stuck for years....

The key difference is size.

Ukraine-233,000 square miles.

Gaza- 17 square miles.

Russian army size? 3 million active, another million reserve.

IDF size? 170,000 active, 450,000 reserve.

....not securely held. Hamas will continue as an insurgent group, even while having its capabilities greatly reduced.

Sure. Generally when you're begging for a ceasefire...things aren't going well for you.

Well, the Biden did state it was a pause. It was never described as an indefinite pause.

Why? The pause was purely political. The pause happened to see if it would boost his falling numbers and when it didn't, pause over.

 

[JosephZ]

Gaza- 17 square miles.

Gaza is 141 square miles.

 

[ralliann]

They certainly will have an easy time of killing thousands of people for as long as they choose to do so.

They? You mean Hamas?

'Winning the war'? Not so much.

Sure they will. Sure the aftermath is important. Whichever the case, handling that in a manner to the end, these murdering terrorists will know such tactics they use at present are of absolutely no advantage to them would be the best....

 

[rjs330]

I'm beginning to think that Israel should drive all the Gazans out and just take it over. The Fazans dont seem interested in yhe least in helping Israel get rid of Hamas. If they were things might be different.
instead Israel could turn it into Israel and farm it and build settlements there. Dump all the rubble into the tunnel entrances. Pour a ton of concrete on each one so there's no way to get out and you'd he good to go. Of course Hamas would link up with Hezbollah. But hey then Israel could take caref them too. If your going to be constant accused of stealing the kand anyway you might as well just take it. It would be more prosperous under Israel anyway. If these Gazanz are so peaceful as peoe say then maybe the peaceful ones can come back and live in peace afterward. But from what I've seen that's doubtful.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I'm beginning to think that Israel should drive all the Gazans out and just take it over.

Some in Israel also support ethnic cleansing and a second Nakba.

When asked what Israel should do with the Gaza Strip in the event that all the territory’s residents be forcibly driven out, Azoulai responded that it should be “left empty, just like Auschwitz. A museum, so the whole world will learn what the state of Israel can do.”