Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Valletta]

Why do you fantasize about evil things which aren't happening to defend and support evil things which are happening?

Their suffering is real. Think of all of the kind compassionate people in Israel who are going out of there way to avoid civilian casualties even after the horrors inflicted upon them by radical jihadists. I don't think there is another nation on earth that would have reacted in such a responsible manner. We all should look to Israel as an example to strive for.

 

[MartyF]

Also, while I can appreciate the very one-sided picture you're trying to paint....let's not ignore the European leaders who didn't ignore the Palestinians....

Hitler ignored the Palestinians. The Mufti got nothing - absolutely nothing. He didn't get Hitler to release the French Arab prisoners of war. He didn't get weapons. He couldn't even get Hitler to say the NAZIs opposed the foundation of Israel. All he got was a picture which is used by Sons of Satan to support the murder, rape, theft, destruction and pillaging of Palestine.

What did the Zionist Jews get from Hitler? Ever heard of the Haavara agreement? The Zionist "Jews" helped to fund Hitler's Holocaust in return to forcing other "Jews" to go to Israel. The Zionist "Jews" also borrowed the National Socialist form of government and added some tweaks.

UN Resolution 181 was the first proposal for an Arab state (Palestine) in the region....and was rather swiftly rejected by the Arabs in the disputed area in the late 40s if I'm not mistaken.

Really? How many Arabs voted in this referendum? Did the U.S. send troops to guard against violence and allow a free democratic process to occur?

Or are you just saying the "Arabs" (As if they were a monolith.) rejected it because this fits your narrative despite having no evidence this happened?

At the close of that conflict...the neighboring and in many cases distant Arab nations decided to persecute and exile most of their Jewish populations which also dramatically increased the population of early Israel.

This is Hasbara fantasy.

I think the only argument I can consider worth having during this conflict is "what is the best outcome for the Palestinian people?"

The best outcome is to end the apartheid in Israel just like the apartheid in South Africa ended. The state of Israel has to end. It is the only just, righteous, and Christian solution.

 

[Pommer]

Their suffering is real. Think of all of the kind compassionate people in Israel who are going out of there way to avoid civilian casualties even after the horrors inflicted upon them by radical jihadists.

What kind of people would the Israelis be if they would do differently than to ensure that civilian casualties are minimized?

I don't think there is another nation on earth that would have reacted in such a responsible manner.

They’ve killed thousands by a 20-1 ratio. This isn’t laudable.

We all should look to Israel as an example to strive for.

This will age well.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Their suffering is real. Think of all of the kind compassionate people in Israel who are going out of there way to avoid civilian casualties

There may be some, but not enough to satisfy US authorities.

US reveals it paused shipment of bombs for Israel over Rafah concerns​

Israel has not "fully addressed" US concerns over humanitarian needs of civilians in Rafah, the official said.

"The US position has been that Israel should not launch a major ground operation in Rafah, where more than a million people are sheltering with nowhere else to go," the senior US administration official said on Tuesday.

 

[ralliann]

Why do you fantasize about evil things which aren't happening to defend and support evil things which are happening?

Who are you talking to?

 

[ralliann]

There may be some, but not enough to satisfy US authorities.

US reveals it paused shipment of bombs for Israel over Rafah concerns​

Israel has not "fully addressed" US concerns over humanitarian needs of civilians in Rafah, the official said.

Israel's concern is Hamas, and ridding themselves of the threat they have televised for everyone to know. They will do oct 7th over and over again. Is this a U.S. concern? If it isn't, Israel needs to ignore the U.S. concern. They have a right to do that remember?

"The US position has been that Israel should not launch a major ground operation in Rafah, where more than a million people are sheltering with nowhere else to go," the senior US administration official said on Tuesday.

What is the U.S. position?

 

[essentialsaltes]

Exclusive: Some US officials say in internal memo Israel may be violating international law in Gaza​

Under a National Security Memorandum (NSM) issued by President Joe Biden in February, Blinken must report to Congress by May 8 whether he finds credible Israel's assurances that its use of U.S. weapons does not violate U.S. or international law.

US report on Israel’s wartime conduct in Gaza delayed, aides say​

The Biden administration’s report on whether Israel has violated U.S. and international humanitarian law during the war in Gaza has been delayed and will no longer be released Wednesday as planned, three Senate aides and a House aide told POLITICO.

If [it determines laws were broken], the U.S. would be expected to stop sending Israel military assistance.

A senior administration official, granted anonymity to discuss the internal process, said they expect it will “be delayed by less than a week.”

On Monday night, [following Israeli attacks on Rafah] 185 lawyers, including 27 currently in the administration, sent a letter first to top U.S. officials saying that sending weapons to Israel is illegal, according to a copy of the letter obtained by POLITICO.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Hitler ignored the Palestinians. The Mufti got nothing - absolutely nothing.

Well I'm certain he got a meeting at least.

What did the Zionist Jews get from Hitler?

I believe they got the gas chambers.

Ever heard of the Haavara agreement?

No.

The Zionist "Jews" helped to fund Hitler's Holocaust in return to forcing other "Jews" to go to Israel.

Really? Zionists funded the holocaust?

The Zionist "Jews" also borrowed the National Socialist form of government and added some tweaks.

Not really, no.

Really? How many Arabs voted in this referendum?

You want a specific number?

Did the U.S. send troops to guard against violence and allow a free democratic process to occur?

I would imagine they were a bit busy fixing the rest of the world.

Or are you just saying the "Arabs" (As if they were a monolith.) rejected it because this fits your narrative despite having no evidence this happened?

I'm saying Arabs because it was called the Arab/Israeli War lol.

This is Hasbara fantasy.

Where do you think the Jewish populations of those nations went?

The best outcome is to end the apartheid in Israel just like the apartheid in South Africa ended.

What apartheid? Palestinians can work, live, and participate is Israeli government. The same can't be said of Israelis in Palestine.

The state of Israel has to end. It is the only just, righteous, and Christian solution.

That's a pretty disgusting thought. Fortunately, nobody is willing to help Palestinians commit a second holocaust nor will the US sit quietly by if anyone else tries. No US leader ever would want to be known as the president who did nothing while the Jewish people were exterminated again.

 

[Philip_B]

That's a pretty disgusting thought. Fortunately, nobody is willing to help Palestinians commit a second holocaust nor will the US sit quietly by if anyone else tries. No US leader ever would want to be known as the president who did nothing while the Jewish people were exterminated again.

I agree. HOWEVER:

• that does not give Israel a blank cheque to do anything
• Some of the US Funding of Israel is funding the US Military Industrial Complex
• The war in Israel and Palestine may be good for the US Economy.
• More Jews live in the US than live in Israel, so there are votes here as well as money.
• Any analysis that does not embrace history will be deficient.
• Wiping out Palestinians to stop them from wiping out Jews is a defective solution.

 

[MartyF]

I believe they got the gas chambers.

Nope, Hitler had already decided on that and the Mufti didn't want that. Jewish Zionists definitely did. So, that is one more thing Jewish Zionists got from Hitler.

No.

You should look it up.

Really? Zionists funded the holocaust?

Yep. Provided important cash funding all the way to the invasion of Poland.

Not really, no.

They definitely did. Israel is socialist. 93% of all property is owned by the state. The nation-state law establishes "Jews" as the master race. All the primary elements are right there.

You want a specific number?

I would imagine they were a bit busy fixing the rest of the world.

I'm saying Arabs because it was called the Arab/Israeli War lol.

So, you admit to saying partition was rejected when, in fact, rejection was not even an option.

Where do you think the Jewish populations of those nations went?

Wrong question.

What apartheid? Palestinians can work, live, and participate is Israeli government. The same can't be said of Israelis in Palestine.

Wrong. Palestinians are required to stay in whatever location they're currently in. As for the second part, you should look up what apartheid is. White people were not allowed to use Colored only water fountains in the South. So, you just agreed that there is apartheid. Thank you.

That's a pretty disgusting thought.

Nope.

Fortunately, nobody is willing to help Palestinians commit a second holocaust

Was there a Holocaust when South African Apartheid was ended?

Was there a Holocaust when apartheid was ended in the South in the U.S.?

Was there a Holocaust when apartheid was ended for the Native Americans and they were allowed to leave their reservations freely?

I can only see intense racism as the cause which would lead someone to a conclude that ending apartheid would lead to a Holocaust.

No US leader ever would want to be known as the president who did nothing while the Jewish people were exterminated again.

You may be right. The U.S. may be so morally bereft, it will happily support a genocide of one of the lesser races - not a "chosen people" like the Jews.

So, what's the difference between "master race" and "chosen people"?

 

[wing2000]

There may be some, but not enough to satisfy US authorities.

US reveals it paused shipment of bombs for Israel over Rafah concerns​

Israel has not "fully addressed" US concerns over humanitarian needs of civilians in Rafah, the official said.

"The US position has been that Israel should not launch a major ground operation in Rafah, where more than a million people are sheltering with nowhere else to go," the senior US administration official said on Tuesday.

It's about time. I don't expect the "pause" will have much operational impact on the IDF's current operation but it does send a strong signal to stop ignoring the concerns of the US gov.

 

[wing2000]

...my read is Israel has no intention of altering its tactics while going into Rafah. They will use the 2,000 lb bombs and artillery in densely populated areas as they have in the rest of Gaza. The US concerns have been falling on deaf ears for some time now. I guess Biden finally had enough.

In some of his strongest language to date on the seven-month war, Mr. Biden said the United States would still ensure Israel’s security, including the Iron Dome missile defense system and Israel’s “ability to respond to attacks” like the one Iran launched in April.

But he said he would block the delivery of weapons that could be fired into densely populated areas of Rafah, where more than a million Palestinians are sheltering.

The president had already halted the shipment of 3,500 bombs last week out of concern that they might be used in a major assault on Rafah — the first time since Hamas attacked Israel on Oct. 7 that Mr. Biden has leveraged U.S. arms to try to influence how the war is waged.

On Wednesday, he said that he would also block the delivery of artillery shells.

“If they go into Rafah, I’m not supplying the weapons that have been used historically to deal with Rafah, to deal with the cities, that deal with that problem,” Mr. Biden said in an interview with CNN’s Erin Burnett.

He added: “But it’s just wrong. We’re not going to — we’re not going to supply the weapons and artillery shells used, that have been used.”

Middle East Crisis: Cease-Fire Talks Stall as Anger Flares Over Israel’s Incursion Into Rafah

Israeli and Hamas delegations left the negotiations in Cairo, along with the C.I.A. director, dealing a blow to hopes a deal could be reached soon.

www.nytimes.com

 

[essentialsaltes]

US report on Israel’s wartime conduct in Gaza delayed, aides say​

The Biden administration’s report on whether Israel has violated U.S. and international humanitarian law during the war in Gaza has been delayed and will no longer be released Wednesday as planned, three Senate aides and a House aide told POLITICO.

If [it determines laws were broken], the U.S. would be expected to stop sending Israel military assistance.

still delayed. Place your bets on the reason.

A: Hey, it's a long report and things take time, especially when every day brings new allegations of misuse of weapons.
B: The report will say Israel is in the clear, and it's being delayed because that would put more pressure on Biden to release the weapons.
C: The report will say Israel is in violation of international law, and it's being delayed because that would (unless we are a lawless nation) shut off the transfer or weapons, and Biden would have no leverage with Bibi.
D: Something else.

Weapons sales to Israel breach legal limits, former officials say​

President Biden’s striking admission this week that American weapons are killing civilians in Gaza appeared to mark a turning point in U.S. policy toward Israel — coming days after the Israeli military made its first move on Rafah and before a highly anticipated government report on Israel’s adherence to the laws of war.

The United States has always been selective in how it invokes international law, experts say, and how it balances rights concerns with realpolitik. But its ongoing material support for Israel’s war in Gaza has led to a rare surge in public backlash from former officials, who say the administration is dragging its feet on enforcing laws meant to limit or condition military assistance to foreign allies.

“Just from a legal perspective within U.S. domestic law, there’s a much wider body of rules that is being ignored right now,” said Josh Paul, who formerly worked on arms transfers at the State Department and is the most senior U.S. official to resign over the war in Gaza. “The arms are just continuing to flow.”

“When you look at those collapsed buildings where people are trapped underneath, the odds are that that death and destruction is being caused by a United States-supplied weapon,” said Charles Blaha, who worked as director of the State Department’s Office of Security and Human Rights between 2016 and 2023 and contributed to the independent report.

Multiple American-made 2,000-pound bombs were probably used in a daytime strike on the densely populated Jabalya refugee camp in November. The attack, which Israel said targeted a Hamas commander, killed more than 110 Palestinians.

Halting arms sales to Saudi Arabia [due to their use on civilians in Yemen], Paul recalled, “was a simple policy decision made by the Biden administration before they even took office and then communicated to us directly within 20 minutes of the swearing-in. The whole debate over Saudi arms certainly informed the discussion on the CAT [conventional arms transfer] policy.”

That updated policy guidance, issued by the Biden administration in early 2023, is “in terms of human rights and international humanitarian law, the best conventional arms transfer policy ever,” Blaha said.

[Saudis get cut off in 20 minutes, but Israel has gotten a pass so far.]

 

[Ana the Ist]

still delayed. Place your bets on the reason.

A: Hey, it's a long report and things take time, especially when every day brings new allegations of misuse of weapons.
B: The report will say Israel is in the clear, and it's being delayed because that would put more pressure on Biden to release the weapons.
C: The report will say Israel is in violation of international law, and it's being delayed because that would (unless we are a lawless nation) shut off the transfer or weapons, and Biden would have no leverage with Bibi.
D: Something else.

D. Student protests have created some really bad optics and are unlikely to diminish regardless of what the "report" says. You have multiple Jewish students being treated like dogs on the campuses they pay tens of thousands of dollars a semester to attend...and university administrators doing nothing about it. You have student protesters not only threatening Jewish students but also breaking other laws with the creation of encampments. Worst of all, any reporters who attempt to speak with protesters reveal just how dumb these protesters are. Many chant "from the river to the sea...." and have no idea what that means or which river or sea it refers to lol. Many are demanding divestiture....although their universities have no investments nor any meaningful ties or influence on the conflict.

Finally, Joe keeps offering these "scholars" student loan relief or forgiveness and it's unclear why they deserve such privileges and the burden of their poor overpriced education should be shifted to those who didn't get the degrees.

I'll admit, I expected these protests to fizzle out by now....but when they didnt, the DNC should have done something about them. Perhaps Joe will be seen as a hero when these protests are put down....but I doubt it.

Weapons sales to Israel breach legal limits, former officials say​

Is this a serious problem? Are former officials suggesting that we're selling too many weapons???

President Biden’s striking admission this week that American weapons are killing civilians in Gaza appeared to mark a turning point in U.S. policy toward Israel — coming days after the Israeli military made its first move on Rafah and before a highly anticipated government report on Israel’s adherence to the laws of war.

The United States has always been selective in how it invokes international law, experts say, and how it balances rights concerns with realpolitik. But its ongoing material support for Israel’s war in Gaza has led to a rare surge in public backlash from former officials, who say the administration is dragging its feet on enforcing laws meant to limit or condition military assistance to foreign allies.

“Just from a legal perspective within U.S. domestic law, there’s a much wider body of rules that is being ignored right now,” said Josh Paul, who formerly worked on arms transfers at the State Department and is the most senior U.S. official to resign over the war in Gaza. “The arms are just continuing to flow.”

“When you look at those collapsed buildings where people are trapped underneath, the odds are that that death and destruction is being caused by a United States-supplied weapon,” said Charles Blaha, who worked as director of the State Department’s Office of Security and Human Rights between 2016 and 2023 and contributed to the independent report.

Multiple American-made 2,000-pound bombs were probably used in a daytime strike on the densely populated Jabalya refugee camp in November. The attack, which Israel said targeted a Hamas commander, killed more than 110 Palestinians.

Halting arms sales to Saudi Arabia [due to their use on civilians in Yemen], Paul recalled, “was a simple policy decision made by the Biden administration before they even took office and then communicated to us directly within 20 minutes of the swearing-in. The whole debate over Saudi arms certainly informed the discussion on the CAT [conventional arms transfer] policy.”

I wonder if that is why the Saudis didn't even pick up the phone when Joe called to discuss oil prices.

That updated policy guidance, issued by the Biden administration in early 2023, is “in terms of human rights and international humanitarian law, the best conventional arms transfer policy ever,” Blaha said.

[Saudis get cut off in 20 minutes, but Israel has gotten a pass so far.]

I am sure whatever Yemenis are still alive are glad we finally cut the Saudis off after years of supplying their war with weapons.

 

[Ana the Ist]

...my read is Israel has no intention of altering its tactics while going into Rafah. They will use the 2,000 lb bombs and artillery in densely populated areas as they have in the rest of Gaza. The US concerns have been falling on deaf ears for some time now. I guess Biden finally had enough.

A quick check shows Gaza is one of the most densely populated regions on the planet....with roughly 15,600 people per square mile. I'm not sure what sort of tactics could be used in fighting Gaza that don't involve targeting densely populated areas.

Seems like a weak criticism.

In some of his strongest language to date on the seven-month war, Mr. Biden said the United States would still ensure Israel’s security, including the Iron Dome missile defense system and Israel’s “ability to respond to attacks” like the one Iran launched in April.

No surprise there.

But he said he would block the delivery of weapons that could be fired into densely populated areas of Rafah, where more than a million Palestinians are sheltering.

I don't think he'll keep this promise.

The president had already halted the shipment of 3,500 bombs last week out of concern that they might be used in a major assault on Rafah — the first time since Hamas attacked Israel on Oct. 7 that Mr. Biden has leveraged U.S. arms to try to influence how the war is waged.

Is the shipment still frozen?

I heard it was just paused.

On Wednesday, he said that he would also block the delivery of artillery shells.

“If they go into Rafah, I’m not supplying the weapons that have been used historically to deal with Rafah, to deal with the cities, that deal with that problem,” Mr. Biden said in an interview with CNN’s Erin Burnett.

He added: “But it’s just wrong. We’re not going to — we’re not going to supply the weapons and artillery shells used, that have been used.”

Middle East Crisis: Cease-Fire Talks Stall as Anger Flares Over Israel’s Incursion Into Rafah

Israeli and Hamas delegations left the negotiations in Cairo, along with the C.I.A. director, dealing a blow to hopes a deal could be reached soon.

www.nytimes.com

Optics. Those arms will be shipped.

 

[essentialsaltes]

US report on Israel’s wartime conduct in Gaza delayed, aides say​

The results: splunge.

US says Israel 'probably' breached international law with American weapons in Gaza​

But we're not saying they *did* breach international law​

But we're not being indecisive​

 

[MartyF]

You have multiple Jewish students being treated like dogs on the campuses they pay tens of thousands of dollars a semester to attend...and university administrators doing nothing about it.

False.

You have student protesters not only threatening Jewish students

False.

Many chant "from the river to the sea...." and have no idea what that means or which river or sea it refers to lol.

Israeli supporters are ignorant of the meaning.

Many are demanding divestiture....although their universities have no investments nor any meaningful ties or influence on the conflict.

False.

Universities are invested in arms manufactures who supply arms to murder babies and children. Universities participate in apartheid by forming partnerships with Israeli Universities.

Finally, Joe keeps offering these "scholars" student loan relief or forgiveness

False. Loan forgiveness are for those who have graduated - not those who are still in school.

it's unclear why they deserve such privileges and the burden of their poor overpriced education should be shifted to those who didn't get the degrees.

Red herring.

I'll admit, I expected these protests to fizzle out by now....but when they didnt, the DNC should have done something about them.

They haven't fizzled out because the issue is real.

Perhaps Joe will be seen as a hero when these protests are put down....but I doubt it.

Joe's going to lose the election because he took Israel's side.

 

[MartyF]

A quick check shows Gaza is one of the most densely populated regions on the planet....with roughly 15,600 people per square mile. I'm not sure what sort of tactics could be used in fighting Gaza that don't involve targeting densely populated areas.

1. Don't use 2000lb bombs.
2. Don't destroy and bulldoze farms.
3. Don't destroy and bulldoze cemeteries.
4. Don't target children and babies.
5. Don't leave babies to slowly die in hospitals.
6. Don't torture people in custody to death.
7. Allow food and water in.
8. Don't bomb the safe zones you tell people to evacuate to.
9. Open up your own territory to temporarily evacuate civilians.
10. Don't bomb hospitals.
11. Don't lie about bombing hospitals.
12. Don't destroy bakeries.
13. Don't destroy water purification equipment.
14. Don't destroy sewage treatment facilities.
15. Don't murder paramedics.
16. Don't murder reporters.
17. Don't bomb the routes to the safe zones you tell people to evacuate to.
18. Allow medicine, including painkillers, in.
19. Don't murder aid workers.
20. I could go on and on.

Of course, this could all have been prevented if Israel and its supporters would have simply not continued their concentration camp and the murder and pillaging of Palestinians and their land.

 

[Ana the Ist]

False.

True.

False.

True.

Israeli supporters are ignorant of the meaning.

That's certainly possible...but the Hamas supporters definitely don't know the meaning.

False.

True.

Universities are invested in arms manufactures who supply arms to murder babies and children.

We've already been over the apartheid stuff...

Go ahead and tell me which universities are invested in arms manufacturing and how much they've invested in arms manufacturing.

I couldn't find any such information but hey, maybe you did.

False.

True.

Red herring.

Not a red herring...just my personal opinion.

They haven't fizzled out because the issue is real.

What issue?

Joe's going to lose the election because he took Israel's side.

As long as he loses...frankly I don't care why. He's failed on basically every issue. I know he's losing the black vote in record numbers and I doubt it's because of Israel....more likely it's his destruction of the economy.

Here's a fun fact though...no matter who wins, they'll support Israel. It doesn't matter if they promise to support Hamas....they'll support Israel.

 

[Ana the Ist]

1. Don't use 2000lb bombs.

Why not?

2. Don't destroy and bulldoze farms.

Why not?

3. Don't destroy and bulldoze cemeteries.

Why not?

4. Don't target children and babies.

They don't...Hamas does hide behind them like cowards though.

5. Don't leave babies to slowly die in hospitals.

They don't.

6. Don't torture people in custody to death.

Is this advice for Hamas?

7. Allow food and water in.

Why?

8. Don't bomb the safe zones you tell people to evacuate to.

It's war...mistakes happen.

9. Open up your own territory to temporarily evacuate civilians.

Nonsense. Egypt can open up its territory to evacuate civilians.

10. Don't bomb hospitals.

Don't build military bases under hospitals.

11. Don't lie about bombing hospitals.

Don't build military bases under hospitals.

12. Don't destroy bakeries.

Why not?

13. Don't destroy water purification equipment.

Why not?

14. Don't destroy sewage treatment facilities.

Why not?

15. Don't murder paramedics.

Paramedics shouldn't be hiding Hamas fighters.

16. Don't murder reporters.

It's a war....reporters risk their lives by getting too close.

17. Don't bomb the routes to the safe zones you tell people to evacuate to.

See above.

18. Allow medicine, including painkillers, in.

Why? Shouldn't those civilians be fleeing??

19. Don't murder aid workers.

Don't hide Hamas fighters.

20. I could go on and on.

I wouldn't waste your time...you should inform yourself first.

Of course, this could all have been prevented if Israel and its supporters would have simply not continued their concentration camp and the murder and pillaging of Palestinians and their land.

That's not why this war started.

This war started because Hamas decided to murder 1200 civilians who were at a concert...and then kidnap another 200....including the elderly and babies.

Btw...this is Gaza pre-war...

This is the Dachau concentration camp...

This is the Aushwitz concentration camp...

You may be able to fool some ignorant people who have no idea what a concentration camp is...but you won't fool any jews.