The mind set on the flesh

[zoidar]

Since both David and Noah are listed in Hebrews 11, I think it’s safe to say they are both in glory with Christ.

Yes!? Is your understanding then their sins were of no offense to God?

 

[Hammster]

The Greeks pursue wisdom of the world, the Jews want signs. What God wants is for them to pursue the wisdom of God that comes through faith. How is that the same thing as Greeks seeking wisdom of the world? Paul is again showing salvation is through faith, not by worldly wisdom, not by signs (and not by works Rom 9:31).

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
— 1 Corinthians 1:21

I’m not sure how you aren’t seeing it. Yes, God justified believers (that’s what’s meant by saving in vs 21).

but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
— Romans 9:31-32

I’m not sure why you posted this. If you read all of 9 you’ll see that they didn’t have faith because God didn’t show all of Israel mercy.

 

[Hammster]

Yes!? Is your understanding then their sins were of no offense to God?

You are having two different categories. There’s a difference between eternal punishment and temporal discipline. Plus, it never says that Noah sinned.

 

[fhansen]

So why doesn’t it work?

It means that being born again/salvation isn't a done deal such that a believer can't possibly die all over again. If one persistently fails to walk by the Spirit they won't be entering heaven.

 

[zoidar]

You are having two different categories. There’s a difference between eternal punishment and temporal discipline.

Of course, but the question we are discussing is if all sins are equally offensive to God. You say they are, I say they aren't.

Plus, it never says that Noah sinned.

No, but we know from from Scripture getting drunk is a sin ...

 

[zoidar]

I’m not sure how you aren’t seeing it. Yes, God justified believers (that’s what’s meant by saving in vs 21).

I agree with you it's the called who will understand, but we don't agree on who the called are, on what basis they are called and what they are called for. You believe they are called for salvation, I believe they are called to live a holy life.

I’m not sure why you posted this. If you read all of 9 you’ll see that they didn’t have faith because God didn’t show all of Israel mercy.

I don't know where you see that in Rom 9, but maybe that is for another discussion.

 

[Hammster]

Of course, but the question we are discussing is if all sins are equally offensive to God. You say they are, I say they aren't.

Did Christ die equally for all sin?

No, but we know from from Scripture getting drunk is a sin ...

Okay, when did God tell Noah?

 

[Hammster]

I agree with you it's the called who will understand, but we don't agree on who the called are, on what basis they are called and what they are called for. You believe they are called for salvation, I believe they are called to live a holy life.

Everyone is called to live a holy life.

I don't know where you see that in Rom 9, but maybe that is for another discussion.

Possibly.

 

[zoidar]

Did Christ die equally for all sin?

Yes! There is only one remedy for sin, it's equal for all sin no matter the severity.

Okay, when did God tell Noah?

When did God tell Cain not to murder? Cain had the moral law written in his heart and so had Noah, but it does not have to be Noah. There are other examples. When the apostles disputed over who of them was the greatest (Luke 22:24), was their sin equally offensive to God as David murdering Bathsheba's husband?

Everyone is called to live a holy life.

Only believers are called/elect to live a holy life. Unbelievers are not called/elect at all.

Possibly.

 

[Hammster]

Yes! There is only one remedy for sin, it's equal for all sin no matter the severity.

Well, we agree on something.

When did God tell Cain not to murder? Cain had the moral law written in his heart and so had Noah, but it does not have to be Noah. There are other examples. When the apostles disputed over who of them was the greatest (Luke 22:24), was their sin equally offensive to God as David murdering Bathsheba's husband?

We know Cain sinned because God said Cain sinned. Noah was never chastised.

Only believers are called/elect to live a holy life. Unbelievers are not called/elect at all.

The command is for everyone to repent. The command is to be perfect for God is perfect. The command is to be holy for God is holy.

 

[zoidar]

Well, we agree on something.

Yeah, that's a good thing!

We know Cain sinned because God said Cain sinned. Noah was never chastised.

If Noah sinned being drunk is not the most important topic. I'm sure it was a sin, but correct, we don't see any chastisement. That was kind of my point, God dealing with sin differently.

The command is for everyone to repent. The command is to be perfect for God is perfect. The command is to be holy for God is holy.

There is the general command, but I think the calling is different from the command. Being called, means have been elected for something you can accomplish, live out. Unbelievers aren't elect for holy living. It's impossible for unbelievers to live a holy life.

 

[Hammster]

Yeah, that's a good thing!

If Noah sinned being drunk is not the most important topic. I'm sure it was a sin, but correct, we don't see any chastisement. That was kind of my point, God dealing with sin differently.

Let’s look at is this way. Is incest a sin?

There is the general command, but I think the calling is different from the command. Being called, means have been elected for something you can accomplish, live out. Unbelievers aren't elect for holy living. It's impossible for unbelievers to live a holy life.

Any command given is one that must be obeyed. I’m not sure how you can get around that.

 

[zoidar]

Let’s look at is this way. Is incest a sin?

Are you saying since God might have made an exception to the rules regarding incest, because there was no other way, God might also have made an exception to the rules regarding getting drunk?

Maybe you will say there was no command against getting drunk. Well, there was no command against murder either.

Any command given is one that must be obeyed. I’m not sure how you can get around that.

Commands must be obeyed, but being called to holy living goes beyond that. Being called means you have been given a new life, which you live in a deeper relationship with God in Spirit and obedience. Being commanded just means you should live a certain way.

Everyone is commanded to report the crime witnessed, but only the policeman is not only commanded but also called to report the crime, because he has a different profession.

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
- 1 Thess 4:7 (NIV)

 

[Hammster]

Are you saying since God might have made an exception to the rules regarding incest, because there was no other way, God might also have made an exception to the rules regarding getting drunk?

Maybe you will say there was no command against getting drunk. Well, there was no command against murder either.

What I’m getting at is that at one time incest was not a sin.

Commands must be obeyed, but being called to holy living goes beyond that. Being called means you have been given a new life, which you live in a deeper relationship with God in Spirit and obedience. Being commanded just means you should live a certain way.

Everyone is commanded to report the crime witnessed, but only the policeman is not only commanded but also called to report the crime, because he has a different profession.

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
- 1 Thess 4:7 (NIV)

Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now commanding men that everyone everywhere should repent,
— Acts 17:30

 

[zoidar]

What I’m getting at is that at one time incest was not a sin.

Ok!

Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now commanding men that everyone everywhere should repent,
— Acts 17:30

Yes, but what I have been saying is commanded and called is not the same thing. Everyone is commanded, only believers are called.

 

[Hammster]

Ok!

Yes, but what I have been saying is commanded and called is not the same thing. Everyone is commanded, only believers are called.

Why is everyone commanded to repent if not to live a holy life?

 

[zoidar]

Why is everyone commanded to repent if not to live a holy life?

Everyone is commanded to live a holy life. Everyone is not called to live a holy life. I explained the distinction between "commanded" and "called" in post #333. A calling is much more than a command. You can use "called" to a holy life interchangably with "elect" for a holy life.

 

[Hammster]

Everyone is commanded to live a holy life. Everyone is not called to live a holy life. I explained the distinction between "commanded" and "called" in post #333. A calling is much more than a command. You can use "called" to a holy life interchangably with "elect" for a holy life.

So only some are called. I guess I can live with that.

 

[zoidar]

So only some are called. I guess I can live with that.

... yeah, for a holy life.

I think I will have to make a correction or clarification. The Bible does not always use the word "called" the same way. You can say unbelievers are called to repent. That means they are commanded to repent. Believers are called to live a holy life. That means they are elected/chosen for a holy life. Believers are also called/elected/chosen to inherit eternal life. So Biblically "called" does not always mean the same thing.

 

[Hammster]

... yeah, for a holy life.

I think I will have to make a correction or clarification. The Bible does not always use the word "called" the same way. You can say unbelievers are called to repent. That means they are commanded to repent. Believers are called to live a holy life. That means they are elected/chosen for a holy life. Believers are also called/elected/chosen to inherit eternal life. So Biblically "called" does not always mean the same thing.

If God only wants saved folk to live holy lives, what does He want for the rest of the world?