The fascinating reformed theology paradox of Hebrew 6:4-6

[ARBITER01]

As i was explaining to you.

Sometimes there isn't a verse that explains, specifically, a Topic.

For example...

"where do the demons come from", or depending on the Version, it can say "devils"..

So, there are 3 options, and i teach my students #2.

Let me show you the options @ARBITER01


1.) God made the demons... and if that is so, then the Bible forgot to tell us that in Genesis.

2.) I TEACH..... "fallen angles" who are now = "the Devil's angels'".... are the demonic "spirits".... and i showed you how to see that, clearly.

Now there is a 3rd option...

And that is... that in the "Pre-Adamic world" .. these demonic beings, (created by God).... were a part of Satan's dominion, (Throne)... and they are still here, after the Flood and after the New Earth was made.

So, i teach #2, but #3, is certainly an option.

#3 is your best option, and why I'm telling you to stop assuming what scripture does not affirm.

Demons seek a body, not angels.

 

[bbbbbbb]

And they had to continue vin the faith till the end as he said

He also supports the idea that they will enjoy a full assurance of their salvation, which would be a vain assurance if, in fact, there was a possibility that they could lost their salvation.

 

[LoveofTruth]

He also supports the idea that they will enjoy a full assurance of their salvation, which would be a vain assurance if, in fact, there was a possibility that they could lost their salvation.

We read of believers who once received the Spirit by faith then we’re in danger of going back under the law and falling from the grace of salvation .This was in Galatians 3-5 and Paul did not give them the eternal security doctrine it a false confidence he said he stood in doubt of them and they needed to have Christ formed in them again.

To say he had hope and encouragement for them to continue in faith and to warn them of falling do not contradict eachother.

Consider what he said in Galatians

Galatians 3: 2. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3. Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”

Galatians 4: 19. My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, 20. I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.”

Galatians 5: 1. Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”

 

[bbbbbbb]

We read of believers who once received the Spirit by faith then we’re in danger of going back under the law and falling from the grace of salvation .This was in Galatians 3-5 and Paul did not give them the eternal security doctrine it a false confidence he said he stood in doubt of them and they needed to have Christ formed in them again.

To say he had hope and encouragement for them to continue in faith and to warn them of falling do not contradict eachother.

Consider what he said in Galatians

Galatians 3: 2. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3. Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”

Galatians 4: 19. My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, 20. I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.”

Galatians 5: 1. Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”

Do you believe that Peter lost his salvation and is now enduring torment in hell? After all, Paul rebuked him to his face and condemned him personally.

 

[LoveofTruth]

He also supports the idea that they will enjoy a full assurance of their salvation, which would be a vain assurance if, in fact, there was a possibility that they could lost their salvation.

No, full assurance and confidence comes when we abide in Christ through faith and have a conscience void of offended and lay hold of eternal life. There will be no condemnation as we abide in Christ if we walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

There is no unconditional promises for final salvation unless we abide in Christ by faith and overcome.

1 John 3: 18. My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 21…Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.”

Hebrews 6: 11. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:”
This was his desire for them and it must be unto the end in continuing holding the beginning of their confidence through faith unto the end and they are warned not to harden their hearts

Hebrews 3: 12. Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15. While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.”

And many “if” verses,

Colossians 1: 23. If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”

The man is deceived if he thinks he will enter the kingdom of God and does this,

1 Corinthians 6: 9. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

Our faith is not fatalism. We did not just get forced to be in Christ we had to repent and believe. And so if we willfully deny him in our life testimony and works and have an evil heart of unbelief what assurance can we have. God does not force any to be saved or kept by His power unless they continue in the faith and grace abiding in him.

It is always by continual faith (not fatalism)

Ephesians 3: 12. In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.”

Hebrews 3: 6. But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. ..14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;”

 

[bbbbbbb]

No, full assurance and confidence comes when we abide in Christ through faith and have a conscience void of offended and lay hold of eternal life. There will be no condemnation as we abide in Christ if we walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

There is no unconditional promises for final salvation unless we abide in Christ by faith and overcome.

1 John 3: 18. My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 21…Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.”

Hebrews 6: 11. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:”
This was his desire for them and it must be unto the end in continuing holding the beginning of their confidence through faith unto the end and they are warned not to harden their hearts

Hebrews 3: 12. Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15. While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.”

And many “if” verses,

Colossians 1: 23. If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;”

The man is deceived if he thinks he will enter the kingdom of God and does this,

1 Corinthians 6: 9. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

Our faith is not fatalism. We did not just get forced to be in Christ we had to repent and believe. And so if we willfully deny him in our life testimony and works and have an evil heart of unbelief what assurance can we have. God does not force any to be saved or kept by His power unless they continue in the faith and grace abiding in him.

It is always by continual faith (not fatalism)

Ephesians 3: 12. In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.”

Hebrews 3: 6. But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. ..14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;”

As long as salvation is conditional, there cannot be assurance. How could an ancient Mayan priest be assured that the sun would rise in the morning unless he performed the necessary sacrifices?

 

[Aviel]

#3 is your best option, and why I'm telling you to stop assuming what scripture does not affirm.

Demons seek a body, not angels.

Who told you that fallen angels have a body?

 

[ARBITER01]

Who told you that fallen angels have a body?

Is that what I said?

 

[Aviel]

Is that what I said?

Angels have spirits. (they are called " son's of God") (look it up).

And fallen angels are demonic spirits.

As far as i can tell, by studying the word... the "Gadarene" "Legion" was the highest concentration of them in a single human as found in the bible.

Mary Magdalene also had quite a few., but not as many as the "Gadarene" issue.

 

[ARBITER01]

Angels have spirits. (they are called " son's of God") (look it up).

And fallen angels are demonic spirits.

As far as i can tell, by studying the word... the "Gadarene" "Legion" was the highest concentration of them in a single human as found in the bible.

Mary Magdalene also had quite a few., but not as many as the "Gadarene" issue.

You didn't answer my question again, .....is that what I said?

 

[Aviel]

You didn't answer my question again, .....is that what I said?

You dont want to learn, ??? then don't.

But if you do, then i already showed you what you need to know, and you can study it out for yourself.

I showed you the 3 options.

And if you are interested in Demonology, then go study.
When you do, if you do, then you'll learn that what i showed you is what you'll find.

If you decide to get into the Dake's Theology, regarding the "pre-adamic", then you'll find that interesting, as it answers the "how old is the EARTH:" debate.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You didn't answer my question again, .....is that what I said?

I think he is either unwilling or incapable of answering a direct question. A simple yes or no would suffice, I think.

 

[ARBITER01]

I think he is either unwilling or incapable of answering a direct question. A simple yes or no would suffice, I think.

Exactly.

He's not the first one on here that I've seen avoid questions.

 

[ARBITER01]

You dont want to learn, ??? then don't.

But if you do, then i already showed you what you need to know, and you can study it out for yourself.

I showed you the 3 options.

And if you are interested in Demonology, then go study.
When you do, if you do, then you'll learn that what i showed you is what you'll find.

If you decide to get into the Dake's Theology, regarding the "pre-adamic", then you'll find that interesting, as it answers the "how old is the EARTH:" debate.

You're funny.

 

[LoveofTruth]

As long as salvation is conditional, there cannot be assurance. How could an ancient Mayan priest be assured that the sun would rise in the morning unless he performed the necessary sacrifices?

No, if there was no faith needed then our salvation is fatalism, not based on faith.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No, if there was no faith needed then our salvation is fatalism, not based on faith.

The scenario you described precludes assurance of salvation, which is precisely what the writer to the Hebrews promised them. Because they had faith, they had assurance. If their faith carried the weight of potential failure and eternal loss (it is impossible to renew the apostate nation of Israel to repentance) then there would be no assurance, would there be?

 

[LoveofTruth]

The scenario you described precludes assurance of salvation, which is precisely what the writer to the Hebrews promised them. Because they had faith, they had assurance. If their faith carried the weight of potential failure and eternal loss (it is impossible to renew the apostate nation of Israel to repentance) then there would be no assurance, would there be?

The just shall live by faith and that is if we continue in the faith and if we continue in the grace we have confidence and assure our hearts before God. But if we deny him or forsake him or have an evil heart if unbelief in departing from the living God then we can only look for a fearful looking of judgement as the Hebrews writer says in Hebrews 10 and Hebrews 3 etc.

And the writer of Hebrews is writing to believers including himself in the warnings not to unbelievers. Unbelievers do not understand nor can understand te things if God (1 Cor 2:14,15 KJV) .Although sone unbelievers may read these things and God could give them understanding and if they are hungry after righteousness they would be filled.

But we see many Jewish believers (thousands in fact we’re still going to the temple in Paul’s time and we’re all zealous of the law and the customs (Acts 21:17-26 KJV). They needed to understand the old and new covenant. And the end of the shadows for the substance (Christ).

Hebrews 10: 26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? …35. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.”

Hebrews 3: 1. Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;… 6. But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. 12. Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;”

Spoken to believers…

Hebrews 13: 7. Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation…13. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach…20. Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21. Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. 22. And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation: for I have written a letter unto you in few words.”

 

[bbbbbbb]

The just shall live by faith and that is if we continue in the faith and if we continue in the grace we have confidence and assure our hearts before God. But if we deny him or forsake him or have an evil heart if unbelief in departing from the living God then we can only look for a fearful looking of judgement as the Hebrews writer says in Hebrews 10 and Hebrews 3 etc.

And the writer of Hebrews is writing to believers including himself in the warnings not to unbelievers. Unbelievers do not understand nor can understand te things if God (1 Cor 2:14,15 KJV) .Although sone unbelievers may read these things and God could give them understanding and if they are hungry after righteousness they would be filled.

But we see many Jewish believers (thousands in fact we’re still going to the temple in Paul’s time and we’re all zealous of the law and the customs (Acts 21:17-26 KJV). They needed to understand the old and new covenant. And the end of the shadows for the substance (Christ).

Hebrews 10: 26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? …35. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.”

Hebrews 3: 1. Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;… 6. But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. 12. Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;”

Spoken to believers…

Hebrews 13: 7. Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation…13. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach…20. Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21. Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. 22. And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation: for I have written a letter unto you in few words.”

I think we have beaten this poor horse to death.

 

[Danthemailman]

I think we have beaten this poor horse to death.

Yes indeed and I came to that same conclusion myself back in post #174. I already thoroughly covered Hebrews 3:8-14 in post #111, #114 and #159.

Now in regard to Hebrews 10:26, to
"sin willfully" carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows ongoing, willful, continuous action. Lifestyle or bent of life. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9) *Hermeneutics.

Now if the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) So in Hebrews 10:10, we clearly read ..WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all and in Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering He has perfected for all time THOSE who are sanctified. To go from sanctified back to un-sanctified would be in contradiction here.

*NOWHERE in the context does it specifically say the person who "trampled underfoot the Son of God and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" was "saved" and/or "lost their salvation." The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.

Strong's Concordance
hagiazó: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Original Word: ἁγιάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Definition: to make holy, consecrate, sanctify
Usage: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.

*In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse (and by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So, the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the seventh day was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), Moses saved the people after coming down off the mountain (Exodus 19:14), the priests and the Levites saved themselves (1 Chronicles 15:14), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36), the Son saved Himself (John 17:19) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to make believers/nominal Christians, not saved people: But WE are not of those who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So, after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as a "professing" believer in this community of Hebrew believers, but later renounces his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received and trampling underfoot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with these Hebrew believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I think we have beaten this poor horse to death.

Not really, the doctrine of Christ and to be saved by grace through faith and abiding in Christ through continual faith is not a “dead horse”

I preach faith not fatalism but sone may perhaps unknowingly teach fatalism not faith.