The Triumph of Bidenomics!

[probinson]

Blackouts already cause major disruptions, even with the entire country depending on gasoline for their travel.

Yes, and the more people rely solely on electricity, the more disruptive it will be.

OTOH, EVs can be quite helpful in a blackout, as you can use your car to power necessities in your home while the power is out. A 70kWh battery in a car can power a home for two normal days (using electricity normally, not trying to conserve). If you limit what you are spending power on (as I would likely need to, since the EV6 will only supply 3.6 kW), it will last even longer. But even just with the EV6, you can power your refrigerator, heater, lights, etc. -- the things you would need to comfortably survive a blackout. This video talks of getting 5 days of backup power from the Ioniq 5 (the Hyundai sibling to the EV6, with the same drivetrain and battery system).

This all assumes that your EV is charged at the beginning of the blackout. Better hope the blackout doesn't happen right when you get home from a trip before you've had time to re-charge! I know, I know. That's just an "edge case".

Granted, you could buy a generator but that is an extra cost and, to ensure it will run when needed, you need to have a regular maintenance plan to keep it free of leaves and other debris, regular oil changes (regardless if it is used), test/replace the gasoline as it will go bad if it sits too long, etc.

I have a small portable generator and a transfer switch. When the power goes out, I simply roll it out of the garage, plug into the outside plug, flip the transfer switch and go on with my day. The generator is garage-kept when not in use, and the maintenance is pretty minimal.

I'm sure you'll try to object that you won't have advance warning and the EV may not be charged;

It's like you're clairvoyant.

again, you start the day with an EV at a high charging state (even if that is 80%). For most owners, even if they drive it all day (assuming an evening blackout), they still likely have 50% or so left (this will vary per individual -- though some may be higher if they charge at work. The car system also has a limit, which you as the owner set, to ensure your battery is not drained too low. Of course, for most people, once power is back you disconnect the house from the car and then plug the car in to the charger.

Story time: Last year, there were some very high winds that took out hundreds of power lines and poles all over the Northeast. I lost power on Saturday afternoon and did not get it back until late Tuesday night. I was one of the lucky ones. Many around here were without power for over a week.

An EV might have helped them for the first day or two, but then they would have been out of luck. I guess they could have made a run on the 3 charging stations we have here in town to juice up, but then, they probably weren't working either (since the power was out). OTOH, I just went about 500 ft to the nearest gas station and filed up a 5 gallon gas can. Pulled the cord and voila! instant power. When the tank ran out, I just filled it up again.

If the only energy resource you have is electricity and there is no electricity for an extended period of time, you're in trouble. The batteries will discharge and there will be no way to recharge them.

Since even experts (those who dabble in the gas and oil futures markets) don't agree, and are often wrong, I don't think either of us know, either, so I don't know what you are trying to argue here.

The point is that EVs require more per unit (kWh) than ICE vehicles do per unit (gallons) which means that even small changes in electricity price means big impacts in charging costs.

FTR, First Energy has said that "significant reductions" are on the way in our electric rates this summer. I have no idea what that means, but it would certainly change the calculus on my earlier example. Although I suspect I'd still be looking at a multi-year ROI on gas savings.

I already said we'd need more public chargers. At the same time, I don't think we'll need as many fast chargers, as what you are thinking, or public chargers. First, for those in apartments, what will likely happen is that landlords will need to start offering charging for tenants (assuming the apartment has a parking lot for tenants). These won't be public but private chargers, much like some businesses have for employees today, and likely have some type of security to ensure only the tenant uses the charger.

You think landlords are just going to eat the cost of installing EV chargers for their tenants? Not likely.

Yes, in cities where there is "row housing" there will likely be public L2 chargers on the street -- what I've seen is charging outlets that look similar to parking meters.

These are all wonderful plans. Let's talk again when they materialize.

Why would you need to wait an hour to charge "in an emergency?" You start every morning with 80%, you drive your 30 mile per day average (or whatever it is), leaving you over 70% if there is an "emergency" to get out of the area.

I know you're stuck on "averages", but you need to understand that your idealized world doesn't exist for everyone in every scenario.

(The following scenario is based on real life events)

Let's say I have an EV and I have to drive to Pittsburgh. That is about 160 miles round trip for me. And then when I get home that evening, something unexpected happens and I need to take my kid to the ER. But I wouldn't have enough charge to get to the hospital. We've already determined that an hour on a level 2 charger will net me about 44 miles. So, I guess I would just have to plug in and wait an extra hour (or more) before going to the ER.

EVs require advanced planning. You've talked about that at length in this thread. But not everything in life is planned, and if something happens that you didn't plan for, you might just find yourself unable to react quickly. OTOH, I can hop in my ICE car and stop at a gas station, even if I'm running on fumes, and go wherever I need to after just a few short minutes of fueling.

I know you'll just dismiss this an "edge case", but it's a very real scenario.

No, you are acting as if the rental agencies in Maui are all trying to rent out EVs

You're just making stuff up now. I've never said anything remotely resembling this.

 

[SimplyMe]

Yes, and the more people rely solely on electricity, the more disruptive it will be.



This all assumes that your EV is charged at the beginning of the blackout. Better hope the blackout doesn't happen right when you get home from a trip before you've had time to re-charge! I know, I know. That's just an "edge case".



I have a small portable generator and a transfer switch. When the power goes out, I simply roll it out of the garage, plug into the outside plug, flip the transfer switch and go on with my day. The generator is garage-kept when not in use, and the maintenance is pretty minimal.



It's like you're clairvoyant.



Story time: Last year, there were some very high winds that took out hundreds of power lines and poles all over the Northeast. I lost power on Saturday afternoon and did not get it back until late Tuesday night. I was one of the lucky ones. Many around here were without power for over a week.

An EV might have helped them for the first day or two, but then they would have been out of luck. I guess they could have made a run on the 3 charging stations we have here in town to juice up, but then, they probably weren't working either (since the power was out). OTOH, I just went about 500 ft to the nearest gas station and filed up a 5 gallon gas can. Pulled the cord and voila! instant power. When the tank ran out, I just filled it up again.

Did you not notice the video, where his power lasted 5 days from his Ioniq 5? If power is out for a week or more, then you have many more issues than just the lack of home power.

If the only energy resource you have is electricity and there is no electricity for an extended period of time, you're in trouble. The batteries will discharge and there will be no way to recharge them.

Why will the batteries discharge? Again, maybe you are the batteries as a power source for your home but that should give you plenty of power.

The point is that EVs require more per unit (kWh) than ICE vehicles do per unit (gallons) which means that even small changes in electricity price means big impacts in charging costs.

FTR, First Energy has said that "significant reductions" are on the way in our electric rates this summer. I have no idea what that means, but it would certainly change the calculus on my earlier example. Although I suspect I'd still be looking at a multi-year ROI on gas savings.

But 1 cent increase is considerable for electricity -- 5 cents is extremely rare. Five cents difference in cost of gas is less than the difference between buying between Sheetz and Sam's Club. In fact, the difference in gas prices between summer and winter is often more than a $0.25; and that is ignoring when there are gas increases caused by worldwide oil prices.

You think landlords are just going to eat the cost of installing EV chargers for their tenants? Not likely.

If they were smart, I'm pretty sure they could have already installed them for minimal cost, taking advantage of federal tax credits (that may no longer be available). I suspect we'll see that type of tax credit again, though I'm sure landlords will want to raise their rates to cover it anyway. OTOH, paying some fee like "charger rental" as part of monthly rent is still likely going to not cost more than the cost of electricity plus the rental fee, at least for most tenants.

These are all wonderful plans. Let's talk again when they materialize.



I know you're stuck on "averages", but you need to understand that your idealized world doesn't exist for everyone in every scenario.

(The following scenario is based on real life events)

Let's say I have an EV and I have to drive to Pittsburgh. That is about 160 miles round trip for me. And then when I get home that evening, something unexpected happens and I need to take my kid to the ER. But I wouldn't have enough charge to get to the hospital. We've already determined that an hour on a level 2 charger will net me about 44 miles. So, I guess I would just have to plug in and wait an extra hour (or more) before going to the ER.

So you'll have a car with a max (100%) range of 200 miles? If I was going to drive 160 miles, I'd likely have another 90-ish miles left when I returned home. Though, honestly, it would likely be more (unless below freezing all day), as I would think that was a great day to do my monthly charge (that Kia tells me to do) to 100%.

Beyond that, if you are really going to run that close to hitting your max range, you likely are going to stop at a charging station for a few minutes (maybe 5 minutes, but possibly 10 to be safe) in Pittsburgh before you return.

And, in the end, what you may just do is take your other car.

EVs require advanced planning. You've talked about that at length in this thread. But not everything in life is planned, and if something happens that you didn't plan for, you might just find yourself unable to react quickly. OTOH, I can hop in my ICE car and stop at a gas station, even if I'm running on fumes, and go wherever I need to after just a few short minutes of fueling.

I know you'll just dismiss this an "edge case", but it's a very real scenario.

I'm sure you'll try to invent some other scenario since your first one didn't really work.

You're just making stuff up now. I've never said anything remotely resembling this.

You said "You seem to vastly underestimate the tourist industry in Hawaii and the number of people that would benefit." Maybe I misinterpreted it, but you seemed to be implying that lots of people would not be able to charge the EVs they rented. Did I misunderstand?

 

[probinson]

Did you not notice the video, where his power lasted 5 days from his Ioniq 5?

I call shenanigans.

I don't fully understand these calculations, but this article from CNET claims that an F-150 Lightning, with its much larger 98 kWh battery, can power the house for up to three days. The Ioniq 5 has a 77.4 kWh battery. I suppose it depends on how much electricity you use, but I sincerely doubt that unless you were in some serious energy conservation mode, you wouldn't get anywhere near 5 days of power.

Why will the batteries discharge?

Because that's what batteries do when you use them. And if there is a power outage, there is no way to recharge them once they're empty.

But 1 cent increase is considerable for electricity -- 5 cents is extremely rare.

Is it? I mean looking at my historical prices here, I've seen prices jump from $0.05/kWh to $0.11/kWh in just a year. If you have a 100 kWh battery, that equates to $5 more per charge.

Five cents difference in cost of gas is less than the difference between buying between Sheetz and Sam's Club.

Not really. Sometimes the difference between those two Is much greater than that.

In fact, the difference in gas prices between summer and winter is often more than a $0.25; and that is ignoring when there are gas increases caused by worldwide oil prices.

Sure. But when filling up a 15 gallon gas tank, the price difference is $3.75 for each $0.25 gas increases. And a full tank will give you far more range than an EV charge. There's no doubt that small fluctuations in electricity prices will have big impacts on EV charging costs.

If they were smart, I'm pretty sure they could have already installed them for minimal cost, taking advantage of federal tax credits (that may no longer be available). I suspect we'll see that type of tax credit again, though I'm sure landlords will want to raise their rates to cover it anyway. OTOH, paying some fee like "charger rental" as part of monthly rent is still likely going to not cost more than the cost of electricity plus the rental fee, at least for most tenants.

I'm sure they will raise their rent. Even for tenants that don't have EVs.

So you'll have a car with a max (100%) range of 200 miles? If I was going to drive 160 miles, I'd likely have another 90-ish miles left when I returned home. Though, honestly, it would likely be more (unless below freezing all day), as I would think that was a great day to do my monthly charge (that Kia tells me to do) to 100%.

Beyond that, if you are really going to run that close to hitting your max range, you likely are going to stop at a charging station for a few minutes (maybe 5 minutes, but possibly 10 to be safe) in Pittsburgh before you return.

Huh. I can drive to Pittsburgh and back at least two times on a full tank of gas. With an EV, I'd have to stop. Which is odd, because you were just talking about how much time you save with an EV because you don't have to stop to get gas. Ah, but that's only if you're driving the piddly 30-40 miles you think everyone drives every day all the time. Of course, you do realize that a substantial number of people need to drive far more than that for that to be the average, right?

And, in the end, what you may just do is take your other car.

Sure, because I'm fortunate enough to have 2 cars. But not everyone is.

I'm sure you'll try to invent some other scenario since your first one didn't really work.

And I'm sure you'll hand wave every very real, plausible scenario I bring up, because you seem fully incapable of admitting that there are plenty of use-cases where EVs are simply not ideal.

Did I misunderstand?

In spades.

 

[SimplyMe]

I call shenanigans.

I don't fully understand these calculations, but this article from CNET claims that an F-150 Lightning, with its much larger 98 kWh battery, can power the house for up to three days. The Ioniq 5 has a 77.4 kWh battery. I suppose it depends on how much electricity you use, but I sincerely doubt that unless you were in some serious energy conservation mode, you wouldn't get anywhere near 5 days of power.

The "three days" is based on Ford's own calculations, if a home uses 30 kWH of electricity per day; though it is worth pointing out the EV6 would allegedly give you two and a half days (based on the same calculations). And, the big answer, in a power outage you actually try to conserve energy and not use the 30 kWh you would normally use to extend the life of the battery. It isn't that hard, conserving electricity, to make the battery last 5 days.

Because that's what batteries do when you use them. And if there is a power outage, there is no way to recharge them once they're empty.

Okay, so you have a gas generator and can even charge your electric car, or you install solar power to power your home. So, your house has power during the day, even recharging the car, and the car acts as a battery for power at night. Regardless, in a power outage, my experience is it is hard to get gasoline; the times I've been through extended blackouts there have been hours long lines for gasoline, if it was available at all.

Is it? I mean looking at my historical prices here, I've seen prices jump from $0.05/kWh to $0.11/kWh in just a year. If you have a 100 kWh battery, that equates to $5 more per charge.

Let's get serious. Yes, you've seen one large increase in power prices. When was the last time you saw an increase of even half of that increase? You keep trying to act like this is an annual increase, it was a one time ever increase (or did you have free power before the last increase of this size?). By contrast, that difference between summer and winter prices is a cycle gasoline goes through pretty much every year.

Not really. Sometimes the difference between those two Is much greater than that.

Which tends to support my point, unless I misunderstood you.

Sure. But when filling up a 15 gallon gas tank, the price difference is $3.75 for each $0.25 gas increases. And a full tank will give you far more range than an EV charge. There's no doubt that small fluctuations in electricity prices will have big impacts on EV charging costs.

Yes, but the price difference can be $1.00 per fill up, based on what you've stated, between Sheetz and Sam's Club. There are always "not so small" variations in gasoline prices. Yet your electric prices rarely change drastically, which is why you keep cherry-picking the one time they did.

I'm sure they will raise their rent. Even for tenants that don't have EVs.

Just like they've done without adding any new benefits.

Huh. I can drive to Pittsburgh and back at least two times on a full tank of gas. With an EV, I'd have to stop.

Why are you driving two times to Pittsburgh in a single day?

Which is odd, because you were just talking about how much time you save with an EV because you don't have to stop to get gas.

So this is a weekly or even monthly event, driving to Pittsburgh twice in a single day?

Ah, but that's only if you're driving the piddly 30-40 miles you think everyone drives every day all the time. Of course, you do realize that a substantial number of people need to drive far more than that for that to be the average, right?

You act like 40 miles is all the range an EV gets; not the 250-300 most of the better EVs get. And, as I've pointed out, you can recharge the full range overnight (so you can drive over 200 miles per day) with a simple 220V charger; and the cost of that charger is less than the difference in what it cost for you to get the GT-Line exterior trim, even if you have to add wiring to your house for the charger. I've also provided plenty of statistics but you still insist, without refuting or providing other statistics, that I have this unrealistic view of how much people drive.

Sure, because I'm fortunate enough to have 2 cars. But not everyone is.

Ok. Still, a third of US households do have 2 cars and it would seem reasonable that the more miles people in a home the more vehicles they have. Yes, some number of people in the US have to drive 200 miles in a day regularly; but as the statistics show, that is a small percentage.

And I'm sure you'll hand wave every very real, plausible scenario I bring up, because you seem fully incapable of admitting that there are plenty of use-cases where EVs are simply not ideal.

I've admitted that EVs don't work for everyone, so I'm not sure why you are even bothering to say that. For example, I've admitted for the small percentage that need to drive 200+ miles on a daily basis, an EV is likely an issue, particularly if you live on the island of Maui (or are renting a car there).

In spades.

Odd that you don't try to explain what your point was then, or how I was wrong about that sentence you wrote.

 

[SimplyMe]

Huh. I can drive to Pittsburgh and back at least two times on a full tank of gas. With an EV, I'd have to stop. Which is odd, because you were just talking about how much time you save with an EV because you don't have to stop to get gas. Ah, but that's only if you're driving the piddly 30-40 miles you think everyone drives every day all the time. Of course, you do realize that a substantial number of people need to drive far more than that for that to be the average, right?

I realized that I should probably add one further comment; that this was based on my saying that if you got home and felt you needed more range -- after driving that 160 miles -- that you could just stop at a charger for 5 minutes. I wasn't proposing you stop for a full charge, instead, something much closer to a fuel stop with your ICE car. In five minutes at a lower state of charge you can get 70 miles of added range in 5 minutes, or even about 140 miles of range in 10 minutes.

Now, I know you are claiming that isn't a stop you'd need to make in a gas car and that is partly true. OTOH, it can likely be combined with a bathroom break or getting a drink, something you may well want to do before heading home; you'd basically just be combining a bathroom break/snack and drink stop with adding a bit of range to your car. Much like adding gas to your car, this isn't something that should be a huge inconvenience. And this is assuming there is no charger where you are headed that you can plug into while you are doing whatever you went to Pittsburgh for (and, a Level 2 charger in the city over a couple of hours can likely recharge your car, putting back in all the miles you drove to get to Pittsburgh).

But again, the stop shouldn't be needed in most cases, nor should it be an issue even if there is an "emergency."

 

[probinson]

It isn't that hard, conserving electricity, to make the battery last 5 days.

I guess that depends when the power outage happens and how you heat and/or cool your home. And how many appliances you need to run to salvage your food. And any other myriad of factors that we can't account for.

Regardless, in a power outage, my experience is it is hard to get gasoline; the times I've been through extended blackouts there have been hours long lines for gasoline, if it was available at all.

Y'all have some serious struggles getting gas. Even when we had the week-long outage last year, it was not at all difficult to get gas anywhere.

Let's get serious. Yes, you've seen one large increase in power prices. When was the last time you saw an increase of even half of that increase?

You keep trying to act like this is an annual increase,

I have never said anything of the sort. You just keep making things up. You should stop it.

it was a one time ever increase (or did you have free power before the last increase of this size?). By contrast, that difference between summer and winter prices is a cycle gasoline goes through pretty much every year.

Sure. Energy prices fluctuate. In other news, grass is green.

The point is, small fluctuations in electricity prices will have major impacts on charging costs. And the larger those batteries get, the bigger the impact will be.

Yes, but the price difference can be $1.00 per fill up, based on what you've stated, between Sheetz and Sam's Club. There are always "not so small" variations in gasoline prices. Yet your electric prices rarely change drastically, which is why you keep cherry-picking the one time they did.

They don't have to change "drastically". Again, all it takes is for electricity to increase $0.01 to cause the price of charing a 100 kWh battery to increase $1.00

Just like they've done without adding any new benefits.

Ah, but now they'll have a reason. Progress!

Why are you driving two times to Pittsburgh in a single day?

I'm not. It was a simple illustration that I could easily drive to Pittsburgh twice on a full tank of gas (not necessarily in the same day) while you're saying I'll need a bit more juice just to make it home on my first trip in an EV.

So this is a weekly or even monthly event, driving to Pittsburgh twice in a single day?

Not for me. But as I've already told you, there are a fair number of people that live around here and commute to Pittsburgh on a regular basis. I know this flies in the face of your theory that hardly anyone ever drives more than 40 miles in a day, but it's the reality.

I've admitted that EVs don't work for everyone, so I'm not sure why you are even bothering to say that.

Then why are we still talking? I've said from the beginning that if all you do is short-distance driving, an EV is ideal for you. Where is the disagreement?

Odd that you don't try to explain what your point was then, or how I was wrong about that sentence you wrote.

Quite frankly, talking with you is exhausting. I feel like you are being intentionally obtuse.

Why don't we just leave it at this: Enjoy your EV. I'm sure it's amazing for your purposes. I thought I might be ready for an EV, but after our discussion, I've decided that EVs still have quite a ways to go before they would be a good fit for me. So I'll drive my ICE vehicles and be happy, and you drive your EV and be happy.

 

[probinson]

I realized that I should probably add one further comment; that this was based on my saying that if you got home and felt you needed more range -- after driving that 160 miles -- that you could just stop at a charger for 5 minutes.

Right. Because I'd be anticipating the unexpected emergency later that night.

Now, I know you are claiming that isn't a stop you'd need to make in a gas car and that is partly true.

It's completely true.

OTOH, it can likely be combined with a bathroom break or getting a drink, something you may well want to do before heading home; you'd basically just be combining a bathroom break/snack and drink stop with adding a bit of range to your car.

Sure. Provided there is a charger along my route and I don't have to drive too far off my route to find one. Glancing at available chargers between here and Pittsburgh, there aren't a lot of options.

Much like adding gas to your car, this isn't something that should be a huge inconvenience.

It shouldn't be, but because charging stations are not anywhere near as ubiquitous as gas pumps, it's not nearly as convenient as if I needed to get gas.

But again, the stop shouldn't be needed in most cases, nor should it be an issue even if there is an "emergency."

I guess that depends on what and where the unexpected takes you.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The supposedly-left-wing media seems to be doing a great job of discussing Biden's age, but not such a great job covering the stunning success of Bidenomics. Here are some numbers grudgingly reported by the right-wing media.

Inflation is receding and even reversing!

https://www.wsj.com/economy/goods-deflation-is-back-it-could-speed-inflations-return-to-2-c782d434?st=tyypnprf9k8adhu&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

Prices for long-lasting items, known as durable goods, have fallen on a year-over-year basis for five straight months. In October, they were down 2.6% from their peak in September 2022, according to data released Thursday by the Commerce Department. That has helped bring down core inflation, which excludes the volatile food and energy categories, to 3.5% in October, from 5.5% in September 2022, as measured by the personal-consumption expenditures price index, the Fed’s preferred inflation gauge.

The economy is growing at the amazing pace of 5.2%!

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/stock-market-today-dow-jones-11-29-2023/card/economy-grew-faster-than-thought-in-q3-but-slowdown-expected-CivDqG8scwqDUnP0qZSh

The economy grew faster than previously estimated during the third quarter—at a blistering seasonally- and inflation-adjusted 5.2% annual rate—because there was more fixed investment as well as state and local government spending than initially thought, the Commerce Department said Wednesday.

Even with the UAW strike, job creation is solid. Fears of a recession are disappearing.

US labor market loosens as job gains slow, unemployment rate hits 3.9%​

• Nonfarm payrolls increase 150,000 in October
• Auto strikes reduce payrolls by 33,000 jobs
• Unemployment rate rises to 3.9% from 3.8%
• Average hourly earnings gain 0.2%; up 4.1% year-on-year

The economy added 101,000 fewer jobs in August and September than previously estimated, also suggesting slowing labor market momentum. The report strengthened financial market expectations that the Federal Reserve is done raising interest rates for the current cycle, and improved the chances of the U.S. central bank engineering a "soft-landing" for the economy rather than plunging it into recession as some economists had feared.

Manufacturing employment dropped 35,000, with the UAW strike at Ford Motor (F.N), General Motors (GM.N) and Chrysler parent Stellantis (STLAM.MI) factories as well as at Mack Trucks plants subtracting 33,000 jobs.


Seriously, there isn't much to complain about where the economy is concerned. But you have to go looking for the information.

Of course inflation will drop right after a dramatic increase due to the pandemic that’s nothing to brag about. It’s still higher than it was before the pandemic, and gas prices are still up what 40%-50% from what they were before he took office?

 

[SimplyMe]

I guess that depends when the power outage happens and how you heat and/or cool your home. And how many appliances you need to run to salvage your food. And any other myriad of factors that we can't account for.



Y'all have some serious struggles getting gas. Even when we had the week-long outage last year, it was not at all difficult to get gas anywhere.

When you live in a metropolitan area that is bigger than several US states (about 8 of them), a power outage that covers that area (and beyond) is a huge issue. That includes huge issues with transportation as, without traffic control systems, such as lights, traffic very quickly bogs down. Throw things like a hurricane (lots of debris, flooding, etc), heavy flooding, or a deep freeze (realizing Texas cars aren't "winterized" -- no snow or similar tires), you can't get the goods in and people have trouble getting to where they can be purchased, even if you have a way to sell them. Not to mention that grocery stores and gas stations are near empty if there is advance warning (such as a hurricane) from everyone trying to stock up before it hits.

View attachment 346410

So occasional increased by maybe a cent or so, with one large increase.

I have never said anything of the sort. You just keep making things up. You should stop it.



Sure. Energy prices fluctuate. In other news, grass is green.

The point is, small fluctuations in electricity prices will have major impacts on charging costs. And the larger those batteries get, the bigger the impact will be.

I've not debated that energy prices fluctuate. What I've claimed is that gasoline prices fluctuate, and even increase, far more than electricity prices (at least as a general rule). Do me a favor, post the changes of gasoline prices over a similar period to your electricity graph above. I'll submit this one but it only goes back a couple of years and only gives monthly costs (since daily would show even more volatility) -- though it does support my claim (even about the seasonal price variations).

What is more, you are comparing prices between using gas and electric at a time when gasoline prices have fallen and electricity prices are still higher than they should be (and you've stated that the electric prices are set to decrease in the near future), so your evaluation of the cost of fuel for an ICE car vs. an EV is already skewed towards ICE cars.

They don't have to change "drastically". Again, all it takes is for electricity to increase $0.01 to cause the price of charing a 100 kWh battery to increase $1.00

You keep missing the point here. You talk about that "drastic" price increase of $1 while ignoring that you will intentionally cross the street, and willingly pay $2 more, to not wait in line. Even adjusting for equivalent miles driven, it is hard to take the complaint of a "drastic" price increase seriously when you will pay $2 more willingly, to not wait in line with your gas car to buy gasoline, but it would be some huge burden to pay an extra $2 in electricity costs so an EV could go the same distance.

Ah, but now they'll have a reason. Progress!

And, in return, the EV owners in the apartments will likely completely make up the cost of the rent increase by charing their cars rather than buying gasoline.

I'm not. It was a simple illustration that I could easily drive to Pittsburgh twice on a full tank of gas (not necessarily in the same day) while you're saying I'll need a bit more juice just to make it home on my first trip in an EV.

Not what I stated at all, it almost seems like you are intentionally trying to twist what I claimed. I said you could make it to Pittsburgh and back and still have roughly enough energy left to drive back to Pittsburgh. My point was, if you wanted to add more mileage that you could stop at a charger for 5 minutes, you could add back most of the range you lost driving to Pittsburgh.

Not for me. But as I've already told you, there are a fair number of people that live around here and commute to Pittsburgh on a regular basis. I know this flies in the face of your theory that hardly anyone ever drives more than 40 miles in a day, but it's the reality.

Again, I have never stated that no one ever drives more than that a day. Do I need to point out there are well over 200 million drivers in the US and most don't drive that number of miles, even if a few hundred people (if it is even really that many) drive that number of miles from your town? Even if it is several hundred, or a thousand, they are a very small percentage of US drivers -- and the statistic confirm they are a small minority (well under 10% of US drivers).

Then why are we still talking? I've said from the beginning that if all you do is short-distance driving, an EV is ideal for you. Where is the disagreement?

But most Americans, by the standards we are talking about, do "short-distance driving" on a daily basis, with the occasional road trip (a few hundred miles) once or twice a year.

Let me try this a different way; I lived in a small city (over 30 thousand people) growing up. Daily driving was relatively minor, though because the town was built on a river, a flood plain ended up dividing separate areas, adding more mileage daily (but still, more in that 30 to 40 mileage range). The nearest larger city was an hour away, and it wasn't uncommon to drive there occasionally, maybe even as often as monthly (shopping, entertainment, etc). I have a much better idea of what you are talking about than you think. At the same time, only about 20% of all Americans do not live in cities.

Quite frankly, talking with you is exhausting. I feel like you are being intentionally obtuse.

Funny, I feel the same with you, particularly, as I show above, when you misstate things I've said. You also seem to believe (or at least you argue as if you believe) your experience in your small area is the same as the entire US; and this is mostly what I've taken issue with -- and seemingly you don't believe it is true, despite the statistics I keep posting.

Also, you have these preconceived biases about how hard an EV is to own. Yes, there is a bit more planning but far less than what you are thinking. Yes, range is less but, since you start out everyday with a full battery (or 80% if you prefer, though it depends on the car/battery type), it isn't nearly the limitation you try to make it out to be. I'll agree, with your situation an EV would likely cost more (because of the several thousand dollar initial price difference) but others, don't have the same situation -- which is part of why EVs are more popular in places like California, where gas prices bring down the cost of ownership substantially.

Why don't we just leave it at this: Enjoy your EV. I'm sure it's amazing for your purposes. I thought I might be ready for an EV, but after our discussion, I've decided that EVs still have quite a ways to go before they would be a good fit for me. So I'll drive my ICE vehicles and be happy, and you drive your EV and be happy.

I'm pretty sure I said something like this, though not in the same way, a long time ago.

 

[probinson]

Also, you have these preconceived biases about how hard an EV is to own.

I don't know what your purpose was in this conversation, but all you've succeeded in doing is convincing me that an EV is not a good fit for me right now.

I'm pretty sure I said something like this, though not in the same way, a long time ago.

Great. Then enjoy your EV, and I'll enjoy my K5, and maybe later this year, a K4.

 

[Pommer]

Am I really seeing “I don’t like EVs because I’d have to stop more often”?

Who’s to say that the current infrastructure setup is the only way things can be with EV technology?
Gas stations need enough land to bury the several underground tanks they need.
There is already electricity flowing to rest stops, beef it up and add chargers; one needn’t even leave the Highway!

 

[probinson]

Am I really seeing “I don’t like EVs because I’d have to stop more often”?

Yep. And considerably longer. Depending on how far your trip is, you could be looking at adding many hours to your trip. When my brother-in-law drove his Chevy Bolt from Chicago, IL to Greenville, SC, he had to stop 5 times totaling nearly 3-1/2 hours.

He really doesn't mind. He loves his car. But then, almost all of his driving is city driving. Even though he doesn't have anywhere to charge at home since he lives in an apartment building, he doesn't really drive that often at all and uses public transit almost all the time.

But there's absolutely no way I would willingly add 3-1/2 hours to my trip time. Now granted, more expensive EVs don't require as many stops and can charge faster, but it's still no contest with the amount time it takes to fuel an ICE vehicle on a road trip.

Who’s to say that the current infrastructure setup is the only way things can be with EV technology?
Gas stations need enough land to bury the several underground tanks they need.
There is already electricity flowing to rest stops, beef it up and add chargers; one needn’t even leave the Highway!

I have no doubt that the future of EVs is bright. And I have no doubt that there will continue to be innovations that will improve the infrastructure, range and charge times. When all of that happens and pricing is comparable to ICE vehicles, I'll be first in line to buy one.

 

[SimplyMe]

Yep. And considerably longer. Depending on how far your trip is, you could be looking at adding many hours to your trip. When my brother-in-law drove his Chevy Bolt from Chicago, IL to Greenville, SC, he had to stop 5 times totaling nearly 3-1/2 hours.

View attachment 346457

He really doesn't mind. He loves his car. But then, almost all of his driving is city driving. Even though he doesn't have anywhere to charge at home since he lives in an apartment building, he doesn't really drive that often at all and uses public transit almost all the time.

But there's absolutely no way I would willingly add 3-1/2 hours to my trip time. Now granted, more expensive EVs don't require as many stops and can charge faster, but it's still no contest with the amount time it takes to fuel an ICE vehicle on a road trip.



I have no doubt that the future of EVs is bright. And I have no doubt that there will continue to be innovations that will improve the infrastructure, range and charge times. When all of that happens and pricing is comparable to ICE vehicles, I'll be first in line to buy one.

So you use an example with a car that fast chargers so slowly, that that version isn't built anymore? There isn't a worst example you could have picked. At the same time, if you use what may be the most popular EV in the US, the Tesla Model 3 Long Range, you are only looking at 3 stops that total 48 minutes.

 

[probinson]

So you use an example with a car that fast chargers so slowly, that that version isn't built anymore? There isn't a worst example you could have picked.

I used a real-world example. I'm sorry that my real-world example doesn't support your narrative, but it doesn't make it any less real.

At the same time, if you use what may be the most popular EV in the US, the Tesla Model 3 Long Range, you are only looking at 3 stops that total 48 minutes.

What an inane comparison. Do you have any idea how much more a Tesla Model 3 Long Range is vs. a base-trim Chevy Bolt? That's like saying a Ferrari can go a lot faster than a Kia Forte. I should certainly hope so.

 

[SimplyMe]

I used a real-world example. I'm sorry that my real-world example doesn't support your narrative, but it doesn't make it any less real.

A real world example of a car that is almost a decade old (the design of the powertrain, including the charger) -- shocking that electric cars may have advanced over the last decade. It is so old that it is being refreshed this year, that slow charging model is no longer being made; the new model will be made with GM's current Ultium battery system.

Find me another current model of EV -- one introduced this decade and sold in the US -- that charges anywhere close to as slow as the Bolt.

What an inane comparison. Do you have any idea how much more a Tesla Model 3 Long Range is vs. a base-trim Chevy Bolt? That's like saying a Ferrari can go a lot faster than a Kia Forte. I should certainly hope so.

That is way over the top. At worst, it is closer to your K5 to a Kia Forte -- not to mention the Kia Forte has higher fuel economy than your K5. So maybe not that odd to compare a bigger car that is currently built to an outdated, much smaller, version that is no longer being built; since the larger car should not get better economy than the small one. And before you argue we aren't talking economy, the fact that the two cars both have over 250 miles of real world range but the Bolt has to stop 5 times and the Model 3 only 3 times shows much of it is economy, as well as that the newer Bolt should have charging comparable to the Model 3.

 

[probinson]

A real world example of a car that is almost a decade old (the design of the powertrain, including the charger) -- shocking that electric cars may have advanced over the last decade. It is so old that it is being refreshed this year, that slow charging model is no longer being made; the new model will be made with GM's current Ultium battery system.

Great. That doesn't change the reality for the tens of thousands of people who already own a Bolt. I'm sure that the resale value of those slow-as-molasses charging Bolts will be fabulous.

as well as that the newer Bolt should have charging comparable to the Model 3.

Look at you, always pointing to how much better things will be in the future instead of acknowledging what currently exists. Kind of like I said. When EVs address their shortcomings in the future, mass adoption will take place.

 

[Pommer]

Great. That doesn't change the reality for the tens of thousands of people who already own a Bolt. I'm sure that the resale value of those slow-as-molasses charging Bolts will be fabulous.

In 1980 my brother bought a BetaMax because of the clearly superior picture quality.

Look at you, always pointing to how much better things will be in the future instead of acknowledging what currently exists. Kind of like I said. When EVs address their shortcomings in the future, mass adoption will take place.

Overall, I’m probably closer to the “ICE is ‘good enough’ for me right now!” camp than the EV side.
Still, it is exciting to see the rollout of a developing technology, even if from the sidelines.

 

[probinson]

In 1980 my brother bought a BetaMax because of the clearly superior picture quality.

Kind of like the poor schlubs who bet on the Microsoft Zune over the iPod, or HDDVD over BluRay.

Overall, I’m probably closer to the “ICE is ‘good enough’ for me right now!” camp than the EV side.
Still, it is exciting to see the rollout of a developing technology, even if from the sidelines.

Agreed. There have been some amazing advancements in battery technology in a short period of time, and I expect that will probably continue.

 

[SimplyMe]

Great. That doesn't change the reality for the tens of thousands of people who already own a Bolt. I'm sure that the resale value of those slow-as-molasses charging Bolts will be fabulous.

From what I've seen, it is holding on. The fact is, the Bolt is a great commuter car, if you have ever driven one. They are surprisingly roomy inside, for such a small car, and actually could be fairly comfortable to road trip in (as I'm sure your brother will attest to). The fact that they charge slowly at fast charger isn't likely to hurt them, as they were largely marketed as a "city car" to use as a commuter.

Look at you, always pointing to how much better things will be in the future instead of acknowledging what currently exists. Kind of like I said. When EVs address their shortcomings in the future, mass adoption will take place.

The Tesla Model 3 doesn't already exist? The Bolt is announced, it just is unknown when they will start selling them -- we just know that it is a 2025 model, which means they could start selling them anytime between next month and maybe six months in the future -- this isn't some long term wait, far in the future, we are talking about. But, honestly, your talk of the "future" exists now -- you don't have to wait for the new Bolt to get a car (pretty much any car) that charges faster than the old one.

 

[probinson]

From what I've seen, it is holding on. The fact is, the Bolt is a great commuter car, if you have ever driven one. They are surprisingly roomy inside, for such a small car, and actually could be fairly comfortable to road trip in (as I'm sure your brother will attest to). The fact that they charge slowly at fast charger isn't likely to hurt them, as they were largely marketed as a "city car" to use as a commuter.

Eh. I've seen my brother-in-law's. I was underewhelmed to say the least. But since he primarily uses it in the city, he's quite happy with it.

What is quite likely to hurt the resale value of the Bolt (and pretty much all other current EVs) is advancements in technology. As batteries continue to improve on range and charging times, no one is going to want one of those slow-charging relics. But then, that's the price of early adoption for anything.

The Tesla Model 3 doesn't already exist?

A Bolt that charges as fast as a Tesla Model 3 doesn't exist. And I have no idea why you're pretending these are analogous vehicles. The Tesla Model 3 is WAY more expensive than the current base level Bolt. Their only real similarity is that they're both electric cars.

The Bolt is announced, it just is unknown when they will start selling them -- we just know that it is a 2025 model, which means they could start selling them anytime between next month and maybe six months in the future -- this isn't some long term wait, far in the future, we are talking about.

Right. Because there have never been announcements from companies that were either delayed or turned out to be complete vaporware. Let's just wait and see what actually comes to market. Frankly, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the new Bolt ultimately becomes (another) casualty of their scaled back EV production due to slowing demand. But I could be wrong. Bolts could be sitting on the docks as we speak... but I doubt it.

But, honestly, your talk of the "future" exists now

It really doesn't. The issues I've raised with EVs still exist now, and the price for EVs is absolutely not on par with ICE equivalents.

-- you don't have to wait for the new Bolt to get a car (pretty much any car) that charges faster than the old one.

That's true. So long as you're willing to pay (A LOT) more and deal with the shortcomings I've discussed.