Israel-Hamas Thread II

[MartyF]

"We must remind the US and the West that while Israel is the one fighting this war, it is not just Israel's war. It is being waged against those who view Israel as the spearhead of Western civilization. This is a war over the global and regional order, against the radical axis that has united two rival camps – Shiites and Sunnis – solely due to their shared desire to annihilate Israel and weaken Western influence.
Israel must act resolutely to achieve all war aims, unconditionally and as soon as possible. Discussing operational plans with the Biden administration leaves it no choice but to oppose the operation, as it would not want to be seen as approving actions that could harm uninvolved civilians - which despite best efforts, cannot be guaranteed. If so, we should re-evaluate the need for such joint discussions and at what level they should take place.
The struggle against Hamas must be defined as a perpetual mission – total war against the terror organization wherever it exists."

https://www.israelhayom.com/opinions/hamas-defeat-must-come-as-part-of-a-new-regional-order-that-targets-iran/

Yes Israel is the settler colonial project of the west as well as the U.S. Israel was started through the rape, pillage, and murder of Palestinians.

The question is whether the U.S. will side with the Israelis and their desire for greater slaughter and conquest or stop their support for such affairs.

As a resistance organization, the first goal of Hamas is to survive. The second goal is to resist.

 

[MartyF]

Hamas tells negotiators it doesn’t have 40 Israeli hostages (of the right type) needed for first round of ceasefire​

Hamas has indicated it is currently unable to identify and track down 40 Israeli hostages needed for the first phase of a ceasefire deal, according to an Israeli official and a source familiar with the discussions, raising fears that more hostages may be dead than are publicly known.

The framework that has been laid out by negotiators says that during a first six-week pause in the fighting, Hamas should release 40 of the remaining hostages, including all the women as well as sick and elderly men. In exchange, hundreds of Palestinian prisoners would be released from Israeli prisons.

With Hamas appearing to be unable to reach 40 in the proposed categories, Israel has pushed for Hamas to fill out the initial release with younger male hostages, including soldiers, the Israeli official said.

Soldiers aren't hostages, they are PoWs. They are returned after a war.

 

[MartyF]

I think it's pretty obvious now where you stand. You talk a big game but then off all kinds of excuses for terrorist actions and those that support them. Even referring to stolen land while conveniently forgetting who the land where Israel sits belonged to in the first place.

Look the way of the world is this. The land belongs to whomever takes it and holds it. That's it. No it's not Christ like but expecting the world to be like Christ goes against everything the scripture teaches us about the world. The Arabs in the area have stolen the land from others and each other. I don't here you admonishing them for it. Every country in the world has been gained by conquering and subduing others. While God gave the land to the Jews they had to march in and take it, with his help. God even used other countries to come in and take it from them.

So please dont try and sell us on the fact that the Arabs in the region are poor innocent victims of the mean Israelis.

They have their own land. And had a lot of it even after Israel was formed. The fact that they chose to do nothing with it, and not live in peace and to continuously try and destroy and t ach their children to hate and destroy Israel is evidence they have and have had no intention of trying to live in peace and build their own thriving community. This could have ended a long time ago and they could have a thriving country right now, but they chose the way of war Everytime.

And Israel has their land back and they haven't tried to conquer anything else. They could have wiped out Gaza long before now, but chose to just try and be defensive in nature.

I'll take what Jesus said about the Jews of today.

John 8:44

I think supporting the Jews of today is in opposition to the will of Jesus Christ.

Mark 11:12-25

Nothing good will come from Israel again.

 

[MartyF]

Israel has been attacked in a horrendous and barbaric butchery of innocents, and no country in the world has or would meet the high standards of Israel in avoiding innocent casualties as has Israel. Can you imagine if a foreign power sent rockets into the United States, attacked on the ground and butchered babies and raped women and then kidnapped innocents and took them hostage? Do you believe it would be correct to demand U.S. soldiers just sit still while women hostages were still being raped and tortured, and that a cease fire be called for without the release of the hostages? If Hamas is not eliminated they will recruit massive numbers of new terrorists who will glorify Hamas as heroic leaders who defeated Israel and the United States.

Never happened on October 7 or after to Israel.

However, Israel has been taking kidnapped innocent Palestinians and taken them hostage for many decades.

Israel is currently butchering babies.

 

[Valletta]

Yes Israel is the settler colonial project of the west as well as the U.S. Israel was started through the rape, pillage, and murder of Palestinians.

The question is whether the U.S. will side with the Israelis and their desire for greater slaughter and conquest or stop their support for such affairs.

As a resistance organization, the first goal of Hamas is to survive. The second goal is to resist.

Japan was the same way in World War II, claiming they were the victims. A savage jihadist organization like Hamas must be stopped.

 

[MartyF]

Japan was the same way in World War II, claiming they were the victims.

Not even remotely the same.

No settler colonial project ever existed in Japan.

Japan was a colonial power.

A savage jihadist organization like Hamas must be stopped.

What makes them “savage”?

Why do you think the genocide of the Palestinians needs to succeed?

 

[rjs330]

Yes Israel is the settler colonial project of the west as well as the U.S. Israel was started through the rape, pillage, and murder of Palestinians.

The question is whether the U.S. will side with the Israelis and their desire for greater slaughter and conquest or stop their support for such affairs.

As a resistance organization, the first goal of Hamas is to survive. The second goal is to resist.

No their first order is to murder the Jews. And they've been fulfilling that for decades. Their goal now is to survive after Israel finally had enough.

 

[Philip_B]

No their first order is to murder the Jews. And they've been fulfilling that for decades. Their goal now is to survive after Israel finally had enough.

This sounds like propaganda. This forum deserves better. I am unclear if you are referring to Hamas or the Palestinians. In either case, you appear to be doing it without a balanced view of history.

 

[Valletta]

This sounds like propaganda. This forum deserves better. I am unclear if you are referring to Hamas or the Palestinians. In either case, you appear to be doing it without a balanced view of history.

Understanding Hamas’s Genocidal Ideology​

A close read of Hamas’s founding documents clearly shows its intentions. . .

Released on August 18, 1988, the original covenant spells out clearly Hamas’s genocidal intentions. Accordingly, what happened in Israel on Saturday is completely in keeping with Hamas’s explicit aims and stated objectives. It was in fact the inchoate realization of Hamas’s true ambitions.

The most relevant of the document’s 36 articles can be summarized as falling within four main themes:

1. The complete destruction of Israel as an essential condition for the liberation of Palestine and the establishment of a theocratic state based on Islamic law (Sharia),
2. The need for both unrestrained and unceasing holy war (jihad) to attain the above objective,
3. The deliberate disdain for, and dismissal of, any negotiated resolution or political settlement of Jewish and Muslim claims to the Holy Land, and
4. The reinforcement of historical anti-Semitic tropes and calumnies married to sinister conspiracy theories.

Understanding Hamas’s Genocidal Ideology

A close read of Hamas’s founding documents clearly shows its intentions.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[JosephZ]

Understanding Hamas’s Genocidal Ideology​

A close read of Hamas’s founding documents clearly shows its intentions.

Released on August 18, 1988, the original covenant spells out clearly Hamas’s genocidal intentions. Accordingly, what happened in Israel on Saturday is completely in keeping with Hamas’s explicit aims and stated objectives. It was in fact the inchoate realization of Hamas’s true ambitions.

The most relevant of the document’s 36 articles can be summarized as falling within four main themes:

1. The complete destruction of Israel as an essential condition for the liberation of Palestine and the establishment of a theocratic state based on Islamic law (Sharia),
2. The need for both unrestrained and unceasing holy war (jihad) to attain the above objective,
3. The deliberate disdain for, and dismissal of, any negotiated resolution or political settlement of Jewish and Muslim claims to the Holy Land, and
4. The reinforcement of historical anti-Semitic tropes and calumnies married to sinister conspiracy theories

Understanding Hamas’s Genocidal Ideology

A close read of Hamas’s founding documents clearly shows its intentions.

www.theatlantic.com

Palestinians≠Hamas

 

[Valletta]

Hamas≠Palestinians

A poll showed over 70% of Palestinians supported the massacre. Additionally, Hamas members are Palestinians.

 

[rjs330]

I'll take what Jesus said about the Jews of today.

John 8:44

I think supporting the Jews of today is in opposition to the will of Jesus Christ.

Mark 11:12-25

Nothing good will come from Israel again.

Rather than a scriptural discussion, which I can have if you want, I will say this. There has been nothing good that has come from the Palestinians and there never will be. They are a group of people who have shown nothing but hatred and barbarism.

Why even now they could stop this if they surrendered to Israel, turned over all the leaders and soldiers of Hamas. Showed Israel where all the tunnels are located and vowed to never attack Israel again. But they won't. They will continue to dismiss their complicity in Hamas and their desire to destroy Israel. Israel could have destroyed Gaza and tak n it by now but didn't. They endured the attacks from the beginning.

The deaths are solidly on the heads of the Palestinians. Yes children have been killed. I dont doubt it. And the children didn't choose this. But this is a strong message on exactly how the sins of the fathers are visit d upon the children. The Children always pay consequences for their parents actions. In some way or another. Sometimes with their own lives. The father's brought this on their children. Not one of those kids would be dead right now if parents and grandparents had done what was right a long time ago.

Israel is not absolved of all wrong doing here. If some of their commanders ordered the deaths of people out of spite or anger with no military purpose, then they should pay the penalty for their actions. If a soldier deliberately killed people out of spite, hatred or anger with no military purpose then they too should pay the penalty for their actions.

But again none of this would be happening if the Palestinians had done what should have been done a long time ago.

 

[JosephZ]

A poll showed over 70% of Palestinians supported the massacre.

For the third time:

This is not true. If you will recall, I showed you earlier in the thread that the reason for the high percentage of Palestinians who support the October 7th attack is not because they approve of the atrocities that took place; it's because of the attention it brought to their plight. Only 20% of those polled were even aware that Hamas committed atrocities on October 7th. The same pollster also found that 78% of Palestinians (84% in the West Bank and 68% in Gaza) believe that attacks on or the killing of civilians in their homes are war crimes.

 

[JosephZ]

There has been nothing good that has come from the Palestinians and there never will be. They are a group of people who have shown nothing but hatred and barbarism.

How many Palestinians do you personally know?

 

[Valletta]

For the third time:

It is true, you are providing an excuse.

 

[JosephZ]

It is true, you are providing an excuse.

You're misinterpreting the poll.

It is clear from the findings however, that support for the offensive does not mean support for Hamas. Instead, the findings show that three quarters of the Palestinians believe that the offensive has put the Palestinian-Israeli issue at the center of attention after years of neglect at the regional and international levels.

 

[Valletta]

You're misinterpreting the poll.

It is clear from the findings however, that support for the offensive does not mean support for Hamas. Instead, the findings show that three quarters of the Palestinians believe that the offensive has put the Palestinian-Israeli issue at the center of attention after years of neglect at the regional and international levels.

Violence is not the way and no one should support those who preach violence. Thousands of rockets were fired into Israel in the years before the massacre. Gazans used the vast amounts of money and supplies flowing into their country to build tunnels and weapons. Pipes for plumbing went into rockets. By now those in Gaza should have discussed just what did happen. They need to drop the "from the river to the sea," reverse their broken educational system for starters, and most of all live in peace.

 

[JosephZ]

Gazans used all of the money and supplies flowing into their country to build tunnels and weapons. Pipes for plumbing went into rockets. They need to drop the "from the river to the sea," reverse their broken educational system for starters, and most of all live in peace.

Gazans Hamas used all of the money and supplies flowing into their country to build tunnels and weapons. Pipes for plumbing went into rockets. They need to drop the "from the river to the sea," reverse their broken educational system for starters, and most of all live in peace.

 

[Valletta]

Gazans Hamas used all of the money and supplies flowing into their country to build tunnels and weapons. Pipes for plumbing went into rockets. They need to drop the "from the river to the sea," reverse their broken educational system for starters, and most of all live in peace.

The two major parties in the close election both consisted of jihadists. And many, many people had to be aware of the extensive tunnel building and should have reported that information to Israel.

 

[MartyF]

There has been nothing good that has come from the Palestinians and there never will be. They are a group of people who have shown nothing but hatred and barbarism.

Similar comments were made by Hitler of the Jews.

People dehumanize those whom they want to murder.

Why even now they could stop this if they surrendered to Israel, turned over all the leaders and soldiers of Hamas. Showed Israel where all the tunnels are located and vowed to never attack Israel again. But they won't. They will continue to dismiss their complicity in Hamas and their desire to destroy Israel.

If a wife obeyed her "Christian" husband, the "Christian" husband would stop beating her.

Your argument is commonly used by those by those who are domestic abusers.

And as always, your argument is false.

Israel could have destroyed Gaza and tak n it by now but didn't. They endured the attacks from the beginning.

They have destroyed Gaza and are in the process of killing the rest of the population. They have murdured people trying to defend themselves from their murderous actions.

The deaths are solidly on the heads of the Palestinians. Yes children have been killed. I dont doubt it. And the children didn't choose this. But this is a strong message on exactly how the sins of the fathers are visit d upon the children. The Children always pay consequences for their parents actions. In some way or another. Sometimes with their own lives. The father's brought this on their children. Not one of those kids would be dead right now if parents and grandparents had done what was right a long time ago.

Collective punishment is against international law, U.S. tradition, and Christian beliefs.

In domestic abuse, the abuser commonly blames the victim for his or her death.

Israel is not absolved of all wrong doing here. If some of their commanders ordered the deaths of people out of spite or anger with no military purpose, then they should pay the penalty for their actions. If a soldier deliberately killed people out of spite, hatred or anger with no military purpose then they too should pay the penalty for their actions.

Unless Israel falls, this will never happen since Israel approves of the genocide of the Palestinians.

But again none of this would be happening if the Palestinians had done what should have been done a long time ago.

What did the Palestinians do to deserve the Balfour Agreement?

Rather than a scriptural discussion, which I can have if you want, I will say this.

The Israelis are anti-Christ and murdering and persecuting Christians. Do you support them? If so, why?