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Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Hans Blaster

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Then you know better than the research and behavioural science.
I would suggest you go and read that research carefully. In science we do not speak in the sort of absolutes that you think you are repeating when you say that *EVERYONE* believes in something (or whatever it is you say.)
Sure people can be encultured to not believe but that doesn't mean that we don't have an innate spirituality.
I was "encultured" to believe. It failed. Spirituality is irrelevant to my experience.
Thats fair enough. Perhaps once it was and maybe will be in the future.
It wasn't and it won't.
But its a natural part of being human and has been proven so.
"Proven" -- another sign you didn't understand what you read. Not the kind of language we use.
The most common belief people have including many who don't believe in God or gods is the soul or consciousness beyond mind.
Don't have it and I could demonstrate it doesn't exist, but we've already been there and done that. I don't feel like a second show.
 
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stevevw

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As I've grown, I honer the sensuous, or the flesh as you call it as a vehicle for God to speak to us. For instance, God speaks to our Heart through nature. Nature touches our senses. Take the beauty of a Rose or the laughter of an infant with the sparkle of light in her eyes and how that touches us. Or even Jesus who came in the flesh. That Pagan's get that reality and Christian's don't has much to do with the OP and to be honest, my own spiritual preferences.
Yes that spark of life, the essence of some life force that we cannot reduce to a physical or material basis has been pondered over for millenia. We all sense it but we can put different meanings to it. The materialist position is that its just a epiphenomena and byproduct of the physical and nothing real as far as reality is concerned. As far as being able to give us any knowledge about reality.

But that life force is a powerful thing, just as powerful as any objective reality. It can drive humans to go beyond their physical limitations and adds meaning when the material world has nothing to offer in that sense.
As an aside, the more I read your posts the more I'm convinced that you have no real world experience of the what, why and how of Paganism.
Well no I have not been a pagan. But what is paganism, its such an ambigious belief. As far as I understand, what I have researched paganism can be harmless as with naturalism and spiritualism and being in harmony with nature and the earth and universe. But it can also be debased. There certainly doesn't seem to be any limits to expressing fleshly desires.

As mentioned some of the gods were born out of violent sex and killing so this stands in contrast to how some religions make sex and love sacred and life the ultimate worth or how limits are put on indulging in the flesh as opposed to restraint in the spirit over our fleshly desires.
 
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stevevw

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It's obvious Christians have no response for paganism beyond it's bad. They've yet to reconcile the most unattractive element of Christianity are its adherents. Pagan practices reveal a willingness to believe in the unseen, study the elements of their beliefs and apply them in daily living.

They're more likely to encounter a church than a fellow pagan while out and about. But there's something about the church that's so off-putting they'd rather go to witchtok than in the building. That's the elephant in the room. Not the latest TikTok trend.

~bella
My main point was that atheists claim society and the world can live religious free in some secular uptopia, a bit like Lennons song Imagine lol. Though I like Lennons music.

If we only get rid of Christianity and religion then the world will be a better place. But as humans are natural believers in divine ideas getting rid of God will be replaced with other beliefs in divine ideas. Paganism is just one and its growing fast since God has been rejected. But there are many others that are similar to paganism, but more new age and soirtual mysticism.

It seems whatever we have replaced God with be it another belief or no belief we are no better off and in some ways worse off as far as mental health is concerned. At least one thing Christian belief does is offer hope and meaning beyond this world and actually has been proven to bring better health and wellbeing.

Sure other beliefs may bring comfort but as they are often really about promoting human aspects into gods they are still limiting in that they still ground reality in human limitation and meaning.
 
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bèlla

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At least one thing Christian belief does is offer hope and meaning beyond this world and actually has been proven to bring better health and wellbeing.

Do you understand the difference between knowing a truth experientially and observing others for the same? That's the crux of the problem. I shouldn't have to listen to platitudes and well worn Christianisms. Our lives should bear witness to all you've said. Which on its own would generate discourse and questions about our hope and confidence in God.

I don't believe the average Christian emits the health and well-being you suggest which encourages society to look elsewhere for answers. We're supposed to be beacons of light. Beacons attract others from afar and guide the lost when it's dark. When that's your constitution you needn't explain who you are. The difference is obvious.

~bella
 
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stevevw

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I would suggest you go and read that research carefully. In science we do not speak in the sort of absolutes that you think you are repeating when you say that *EVERYONE* believes in something (or whatever it is you say.)
The science I am speaking of comes from many studies done over the years with babies and infants, Its observational science and the behaviour of the subjects is what is being observed in how they respond and react to moral situations or in how infants can express divine concepts teleological thinking which are not about anthropomorphizing humans into gods.

As well as studies on culture and social aspects of humans throughout the world and how there is a common thinking and spirituality that is ingrained in humans.
I was "encultured" to believe. It failed. Spirituality is irrelevant to my experience.
Fair enough then you miss an important part of being human. I think that is the nature of belief that its about believing despite the objective evidence. In fact studies show that belief comes natural and is easy to take on for children. But it takes a concerted effort of enculturation and indoctrination to get belief out of a child.
It wasn't and it won't.
Fair enough though I have heard people say that and they still came to belief. I did not believe at one point.
"Proven" -- another sign you didn't understand what you read. Not the kind of language we use.
Yeah I thought that when I wrote it. I know science don't like the word. But they sure act that way sometimes. Ok the study results have been replicated independently.
Don't have it and I could demonstrate it doesn't exist, but we've already been there and done that. I don't feel like a second show.
Well the vast majority of people believe in the idea of a soul. I mean look at the idea of some soul force beyond the world which is used in movies, commercials, throughout society. Even belief in aliens has an element of a supernatural lifeforce beyond our world.

More than eight-in-ten Americans believe that people have a soul or spirit (83%)

Stuck with the soul
Modern science hasn’t yet come up with an alternative answer to what, precisely, makes something alive. Soul-sceptics can make their arguments but should probably also recognise that this concept fits so neatly into the human psyche that it will not be readily dislodged.

Does the Soul Exist? Evidence Says ‘Yes’

Humans 'predisposed' to believe in gods and the afterlife
New research finds that humans have natural tendencies to believe in gods and an afterlife. Research suggests that people across many different cultures instinctively believe that some part of their mind, soul or spirit lives on after-death. The studies demonstrate that people are natural 'dualists' finding it easy to conceive of the separation of the mind and the body.

Most atheists believe in the supernatural, despite trusting science
Belief in the supernatural is still alive and kicking, even among people who don’t believe in a god. Research on atheists and agnostics around the world has revealed that almost nobody can claim to completely reject irrational beliefs such as life after death, astrology, and the existence of a universal life-force.
 
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stevevw

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Do you understand the difference between knowing a truth experientially and observing others for the same? That's the crux of the problem.
Experience is a real phenomena in itself and in fact everything we do is a sort of experience as our consciousness makes it so. But phenomenal realism is something that can give us deep knowledge about the world and reality that objective reality lacks. Science can tell us everything there is to know about the material processes involved but it cannot tells us anything or measure the experience of color for example.

If we knew everything technical about how color works in the brain and with light and we experiences the colour red for the first time we can say that the experience gave us some new information about the world and reality that the technical stuff could not.

But we can know that others also have these experiences such as people standing together in awe at the starry night sky sharing their experience. So we can together experience this phenomena and it has real force in the world. Some say the combined force has some influence on the world such as with mind over matter.
I shouldn't have to listen to platitudes and well worn Christianisms. Our lives should bear witness to all you've said. Which on its own would generate discourse and questions about our hope and confidence in God.
Yes God is reflected in us, in life and in nature so its natural that we can relate to these things even without God. But Christianity is the westernised expression of a religious movement that began a little over 2000 years ago with Christ in Jerusalem and this went on to become how we express these things. As opposed to other religions.
I don't believe the average Christian emits the health and well-being you suggest which encourages society to look elsewhere for answers.
Well there is ample evidence from studies and research. Especially for mental illness. I guess its got something to do with offering something beyond the misery people feel in this world and its understandable as this world can be a pretty uncaring, cold and dark place if this is all there is.

But also because its about overcoming sin and people are reminded everyday to do the right thing to be saved. So it sort of acts as a conscience thing where people are more sensitive to doing wrong. Maybe a fear or respect for God and the consequences of sin.

Science Says: Religion Is Good For Your Health
“Most studies have shown that religious involvement and spirituality are associated with better health outcomes, including greater longevity, coping skills, and health-related quality of life (even during terminal illness) and less anxiety, depression, and suicide. Several studies have shown that addressing the spiritual needs of the patient may enhance recovery from illness.”

Religious faith can lead to positive mental benefits

The findings reveal a large body of evidence across numerous psychiatric disorders. Although solid evidence is now available for depression, suicidality, and substance use, other diagnosis, such as post-traumatic stress disorder, psychosis, and anxiety, have also shown promising results. The effects of S/R on mental health are likely bidirectional, and the manner in which religious beliefs are used to cope with distress (i.e. negative and positive), may affect mental health outcomes.

Religion gives people something to believe in, provides a sense of structure and typically offers a group of people to connect with over similar beliefs. These facets can have a large positive impact on mental health — research suggests that religiosity reduces suicide rates, alcoholism and drug use. Here are some of religion’s main mental health benefits.
We're supposed to be beacons of light. Beacons attract others from afar and guide the lost when it's dark. When that's your constitution you needn't explain who you are. The difference is obvious.

~bella
Well said. Live the Word. That is what Christ was saying to the Pharisees who were concerned with the detail of the law while an unknown and meek old women was putting her last coin in the donation box.
 
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Hans Blaster

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The science I am speaking of comes from many studies done over the years with babies and infants, Its observational science and the behaviour of the subjects is what is being observed in how they respond and react to moral situations or in how infants can express divine concepts teleological thinking which are not about anthropomorphizing humans into gods.

As well as studies on culture and social aspects of humans throughout the world and how there is a common thinking and spirituality that is ingrained in humans.
Common, yes. Universal, no.
Fair enough then you miss an important part of being human.
Did that and it was a waste of time and useless. I miss nothing about it.
I think that is the nature of belief that its about believing despite the objective evidence.
That doesn't sound good to me. I like objective evidence and if something doesn't have objective evidence I can cast it aside without much trouble.
In fact studies show that belief comes natural and is easy to take on for children. But it takes a concerted effort of enculturation and indoctrination to get belief out of a child.
No one tried to get belief out of me and I wasn't a child when it happened.
Fair enough though I have heard people say that and they still came to belief. I did not believe at one point.
Please stop. I'm not going back. Period. If there was even the slightest hope (or rather threat) of that, CF has certainly worked it out of me.
Yeah I thought that when I wrote it. I know science don't like the word. But they sure act that way sometimes. Ok the study results have been replicated independently.

Well the vast majority of people believe in the idea of a soul. I mean look at the idea of some soul force beyond the world which is used in movies, commercials, throughout society. Even belief in aliens has an element of a supernatural lifeforce beyond our world.

More than eight-in-ten Americans believe that people have a soul or spirit (83%)

Stuck with the soul
Modern science hasn’t yet come up with an alternative answer to what, precisely, makes something alive. Soul-sceptics can make their arguments but should probably also recognise that this concept fits so neatly into the human psyche that it will not be readily dislodged.

Does the Soul Exist? Evidence Says ‘Yes’

Humans 'predisposed' to believe in gods and the afterlife
New research finds that humans have natural tendencies to believe in gods and an afterlife. Research suggests that people across many different cultures instinctively believe that some part of their mind, soul or spirit lives on after-death. The studies demonstrate that people are natural 'dualists' finding it easy to conceive of the separation of the mind and the body.

Most atheists believe in the supernatural, despite trusting science
Belief in the supernatural is still alive and kicking, even among people who don’t believe in a god. Research on atheists and agnostics around the world has revealed that almost nobody can claim to completely reject irrational beliefs such as life after death, astrology, and the existence of a universal life-force.
Well well well. See now that's what I was saying. That absolutist "everyone" notion is clearly not supported by this research. Majorities, even large majorities, are not everyone. Hopefully you will keep this in mind in the future.
 
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BCP1928

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Yes God is reflected in us, in life and in nature so its natural that we can relate to these things even without God. But Christianity is the westernised expression of a religious movement that began a little over 2000 years ago with Christ in Jerusalem and this went on to become how we express these things. As opposed to other religions.
Christianity? Westernized Christianity? As opposed to "other religions" What "other religions" do you have in mind? Eastern Christianity? Or only those which don't do sex the way you think they should? I'm a Christian, I guess I would have to admit that I'm "Western" Christian" but I'm not particularly proud of it. I want to see your God of Western Christian Culture gone from public life, the God who gives the Gospel of Christ a bad name. Honestly, I think we would all be better off as pagans.
 
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stevevw

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Christianity? Westernized Christianity? As opposed to "other religions" What "other religions" do you have in mind? Eastern Christianity? Or only those which don't do sex the way you think they should? I'm a Christian, I guess I would have to admit that I'm "Western" Christian" but I'm not particularly proud of it. I want to see your God of Western Christian Culture gone from public life, the God who gives the Gospel of Christ a bad name. Honestly, I think we would all be better off as pagans.
Wait a minute it was the westernised Christian nations who many in the world were fleeing to because of horrible things happening because we represented freedom, democracy, and Human Rights. WE developed Human Rights and constitutions that treated people as equals and of worth and dignity being created in Gods image.

We may not be perfect but it was the best reflection of Christianity at the time. Not so much now but there was a time we were held up as the bastian of Christian values such as Rule of Law, Human worth, democracy, equal rights, freedoms of opportunity which most other nations denied.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Wait a minute it was the westernised Christian nations who many in the world were fleeing to because of horrible things happening because we represented freedom, democracy, and Human Rights.

We may not be perfect but it was the best reflection of Christianity at the time. Not so much now but there was a time we were held up as the bastian of Christian values such as Rule of Law, Human worth, democracy, equal rights, freedoms of opportunity which most other nations denied.

I asked this before, but when? Can you name a year? A decade? A century? When was this true?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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BCP1928

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Wait a minute it was the westernised Christian nations who many in the world were fleeing to because of horrible things happening because we represented freedom, democracy, and Human Rights. WE developed Human Rights and constitutions that treated people as equals and of worth and dignity being created in Gods image.

We may not be perfect but it was the best reflection of Christianity at the time. Not so much now but there was a time we were held up as the bastian of Christian values such as Rule of Law, Human worth, democracy, equal rights, freedoms of opportunity which most other nations denied.
What sentimental hogwash. Who's "we" anyway? The "we" who stuck it to the Native Americans in God's name? The "we" who founded a religious denomination (still the largest Protestant denomination) on the basis that chattel slavery was OK with God? Or was it "we" as in all of us, with "Western Christians" helping or hindering as suited their personal interests . What you are talking about is American Exceptionalism, a toxic myth which has done us more harm than any of our other founding fairy stories.
 
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stevevw

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What sentimental hogwash. Who's "we" anyway? The "we" who stuck it to the Native Americans in God's name? The "we" who founded a religious denomination (still the largest Protestant denomination) on the basis that chattel slavery was OK with God? Or was it "we" as in all of us, with "Western Christians" helping or hindering as suited their personal interests . What you are talking about is American Exceptionalism, a toxic myth which has done us more harm than any of our other founding fairy stories.
None of that negates the Christian values and truth principles the west established such as Rule of law, Human Rights, Consitutions and Declarations that support human worth and dignity, free speech, democracy, marriage, morals ect ect.

Those examples you give were not based on Christian values but on selfish and unbiblical ideas that actually strayed away from Christ teachings. Christ teachings are "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus". Promoting slavery is against Christ teachings and it took a Christian in Wilberforce to point this out and bring an end to slavery.

The wrongs done in the name of so called Christainity was mixed with imperialism and colonialism which are political ideas. The church overstepped their mark. Christianity was no longer the rule and secular political ideologies were the rule. But this doesn't mean the Christian truths the western nations brought to the world are made invalid. In fact Christianity also brought the stop of canabalism, and other barbaric practices and gave those same people a better life, education, health, democracy, Rule of law ect.
 
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stevevw

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I asked this before, but when? Can you name a year? A decade? A century? When was this true?

-CryptoLutheran
I am not sure what you mean. I mentioned earlier how Christian values changed the Greco Roman way of doing things, changed social norms to be more about equality and human worth rather than the pagan norms of slavery, adultery, homosexuality and treating humans like animals.

Sure the Church fell away from this Christian values and incorporated worldly ideas such as colonialism and imperialism but we often came back to those basic Christian values. The church is not immune to corrupting Christs teachings. Even Gods own people the Isrealites fell away from Gods laws and then came back. That is our rebellious nature against God.

But we established these beliefs with for example the Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights which was the forerunner of Human Rights that was taken up by most Western Nations. Then the Consitutions and Declarations of western nations that supported natural God given and unalienable human rights and value.

This was followed by Human Rights itself after the 2nd WW which was primarily created by western nations especially America and Britain and this has been the basis for many of our laws and polices in western nations.

Its not that Chrristian values came once and changed the west forever. They came in stages but were established in stone despite that we did not follow these at times they still stood and we came back to them over and over. They have stood the test of time.

THis is opposed to say China who went down the Communist road or Russia who supported hard socialism which denied human rights in principle. Or with Islam's own ideology that supports slavery, treating women badly or treating any belief opposed as infidels. We in the west allow free speech, freedom of religion, Rule of law regardless of status, equality regardless of race, religion and political views.

Freedom from torture, abuse, arbitray arrest, imprisonment, equal opportunity, anti descrimination, equality ect. These were established gradually as we realised that we feel short of Christs teachings so they did not happen all at once or caused us to automatically abide by them. They were truth principles we set from the early days but were gradually taken up as we learned from our experience.

The point is they were the truths we believed were set in stone and unalienable so we did not compromise these truths themselves but rather we fell short of living up them them. But its because we chose these particular truths as opposed to other cultures that we could fall back on is the point.
 
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stevevw

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Common, yes. Universal, no.
Yes universal. Why do you think we make Human Rights universal. Because we know that these truths apply to everyone, every culture regardless of their relative view. If they don't we believe they should know these truths to be able to make them universal.

The studies found the same core moral truths in all cultures they studied which included many diverse cultures including 3rd world cultures. That means if all cultures in the study agreed then all cultures are the same. You would expect there would be some variation but studies show they all share the same core belief values.

Most of the differences percieved with morals are not actually differences on the core truth but rather differences in facts surrounding those morals. When the facts are corrected all cultures share similar beliefs. Like some cultures believe some humans are like animals and don't have a souls such as Muslims about women. So they treat them like slaves. When the facts are corrected that all humans are the same they end up having the same beliefs.

Seven moral rules found all around the world
Anthropologists at the University of Oxford have discovered what they believe to be seven universal moral rules.

ALL GREAT RELIGIONS AND TRADITIONS OVERLAP WHEN IT COMES TO FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES OF HUMAN CONDUCT

Humans 'predisposed' to believe in gods and the afterlife
People across many different cultures instinctively believe that some part of their mind, soul or spirit lives on after-death. The studies (both analytical and empirical) conclude that humans are predisposed to believe in gods and an afterlife, and that both theology and atheism are reasoned responses to what is a basic impulse of the human mind.

All people have the same morality; the differences that we see—however important they are to our everyday lives—are variations on a theme.
Did that and it was a waste of time and useless. I miss nothing about it.
So you didn't even enjoy the cup of tea and chat afterwards or the singalongs lol. Even a non believer enjoys the social gatherings and sense of community and friendly concern for each other thats often missing from life.
That doesn't sound good to me. I like objective evidence and if something doesn't have objective evidence I can cast it aside without much trouble.
There are many things that don't have objective evidence and yet we still believe they are real and true. Like experiences of beauty, love, awe, colours. What about testimony. Or how do you verify that your partner loves you and is not cheating. You have to trust them. If you went around seeking evidence then you destroy the relationship of trust.

What about testimony of experiences. What are you going to do ask everyone to show evidence and when they can't just dismiss them. We live by faith everyday.
No one tried to get belief out of me and I wasn't a child when it happened.
Fair enough, that happens. So what are you going to say that because you don't believe that those that do are deluded when they honestly believe its true. How do you even disprove their belief in the first place.
Please stop. I'm not going back. Period. If there was even the slightest hope (or rather threat) of that, CF has certainly worked it out of me.
Well as the research shows there not really any such thing as an atheist and they even believe in the idea of not such thing as belief in God.
Well well well. See now that's what I was saying. That absolutist "everyone" notion is clearly not supported by this research. Majorities, even large majorities, are not everyone. Hopefully you will keep this in mind in the future.
I didn't say absolutely everyone but the vast majoirty and thats what the research shows, not my opinion or yours. When you consider the idea of the soul can mean anything from the religious meaning to even the idea of a detached mind from the body which many atheist and scientists support in one way or another its quite common.

I mean look at how many people are into ghosts and all that stuff. Ghost type movies are some of the most popular movies and are making a big comeback. Look online and billions are into that sort of stuff.
 
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BCP1928

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None of that negates the Christian values and truth principles the west established such as Rule of law, Human Rights, Consitutions and Declarations that support human worth and dignity, free speech, democracy, marriage, morals ect ect.
You forgot to mention sliced bread, radial tires and the automatic elevator. Here in town we have a great food truck round up called Taco Tuesday which must have resulted from Christian truth principles, too.
Those examples you give were not based on Christian values but on selfish and unbiblical ideas that actually strayed away from Christ teachings. Christ teachings are "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus". Promoting slavery is against Christ teachings and it took a Christian in Wilberforce to point this out and bring an end to slavery.

The wrongs done in the name of so called Christainity was mixed with imperialism and colonialism which are political ideas.
And it's those political ideas which distinguish the Western Christian Culture you are promoting from the Gospel of Christ which you don't actually seem to know much about.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Sure the Church fell away from this Christian values and incorporated worldly ideas such as colonialism and imperialism but we often came back to those basic Christian values. The church is not immune to corrupting Christs teachings. Even Gods own people the Isrealites fell away from Gods laws and then came back. That is our rebellious nature against God.

Then it fell away a long time a go. The primary mode of expansion of Christianity has been imperialism, colonialism, and force conversion since Constantine converted the Roman Empire. Then the expansion across Europe, the Americas, Africa, etc.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Yes universal. Why do you think we make Human Rights universal. Because we know that these truths apply to everyone, every culture regardless of their relative view. If they don't we believe they should know these truths to be able to make them universal.

The studies found the same core moral truths in all cultures they studied which included many diverse cultures including 3rd world cultures. That means if all cultures in the study agreed then all cultures are the same. You would expect there would be some variation but studies show they all share the same core belief values.

Most of the differences percieved with morals are not actually differences on the core truth but rather differences in facts surrounding those morals. When the facts are corrected all cultures share similar beliefs. Like some cultures believe some humans are like animals and don't have a souls such as Muslims about women. So they treat them like slaves. When the facts are corrected that all humans are the same they end up having the same beliefs.
We were talking about *belief* in a deity or spiritual thing, not morality. That is not universal. Do pay attention. (Of course core morals are "universal", that's the only way we could evolve to live in cooperative groups just like the other apes.)
 
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Hans Blaster

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So you didn't even enjoy the cup of tea and chat afterwards or the singalongs lol.
What "cup of tea and chat" afterward? When Mass was over, we left. (Sing-a-longs? Do you mean the music during the service?)
Even a non believer enjoys the social gatherings and sense of community and friendly concern for each other thats often missing from life.
But that's not what "belief" or religion is. It is not "community".
There are many things that don't have objective evidence and yet we still believe they are real and true. Like experiences of beauty, love, awe, colours. What about testimony. Or how do you verify that your partner loves you and is not cheating. You have to trust them. If you went around seeking evidence then you destroy the relationship of trust.
What's you point? I don't see one.
What about testimony of experiences. What are you going to do ask everyone to show evidence and when they can't just dismiss them. We live by faith everyday.
Testimony of experiences about what? Religious feelings? Miracles? Contact with the beyond? If you want me to believe such things happen or exist you are going to have to do better than "something weird happened in a dream last night" or "my husband's new job is a miracle from god".
Fair enough, that happens. So what are you going to say that because you don't believe that those that do are deluded when they honestly believe its true.
Yes, I am. I have no reason to doubt that someone else believes something no matter how unfounded I may find their belief.
How do you even disprove their belief in the first place.
I'm not trying to disprove the existence of anyone's belief.
Well as the research shows there not really any such thing as an atheist and they even believe in the idea of not such thing as belief in God.
And now you dip into insults. Quit telling me I don't exist. I do. I do not believe any of that supernatural stuff and haven't for quite some time. I do not believe in any god, therefore I *am* an atheist. It is that simple.
I didn't say absolutely everyone but the vast majoirty and thats what the research shows, not my opinion or yours.
Oh yes you have been saying it. You just said it in the previous sentence.
When you consider the idea of the soul can mean anything from the religious meaning to even the idea of a detached mind from the body which many atheist and scientists support in one way or another its quite common.
I don't care what you call it, I don't believe in it and as you already know I don't think the "detached mind" kind of "soul" is physically possible. Count me as not one of the "many" atheists and scientists .(And be careful not to conflate the two groups just because I am in both.)
I mean look at how many people are into ghosts and all that stuff. Ghost type movies are some of the most popular movies and are making a big comeback. Look online and billions are into that sort of stuff.
There is no accounting for the number of irrational things without evidence that people will believe in. Ghosts are certainly one of them.
 
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dlamberth

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As mentioned some of the gods were born out of violent sex and killing so this stands in contrast to how some religions make sex and love sacred and life the ultimate worth or how limits are put on indulging in the flesh as opposed to restraint in the spirit over our fleshly desires.
I have no idea how prevalent the God/Godess you reference is practiced in Paganism. But what I look for is not the outer form which is where your hanging out, but the inner side of things in how a religion is practiced by it's believers. We could take your own religion as an example. Here we have your God impregnating a 14 your old child. In the practice by the believers it's a sacred act. Personally I go with the sacred. But if one were to focus only on the outer, which is what your doing, your God might sound pretty questionable because of that act. Your God also has a history of violence and teaching/encouraging violence and all sorts of really nasty thing. On top of that, when it comes to sexual issues, Christians do not have a sparkly clean history in that regard. These are the outward side that anyone could look at and use as examples in the same sorts ways your doing with Pagans. The point being, what are the believers themselves doing in their spiritual trajectory. In my experience with Pagan friends I've never seen what your projecting onto the Pagan community. You may not like how they experience the Divine, I get that, but you clearly are, at least to my eyes, projecting things that are not generally practiced by the Pagan community as your point of argument. In seeing that is why I knew you have no experience with Paganism and don't really know what your talking about.
 
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stevevw

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You forgot to mention sliced bread, radial tires and the automatic elevator. Here in town we have a great food truck round up called Taco Tuesday which must have resulted from Christian truth principles, too.
Lol, what about MacDonalds, thats quite a famous icon of the west that has spread even to communist China lol.
And it's those political ideas which distinguish the Western Christian Culture you are promoting from the Gospel of Christ which you don't actually seem to know much about.
Yes like I said those aspects that were mixed with Christainity were not Christian ideals. Like they say never mix religion and politics. But that is the nature of humans that they rebel against God and think they know better. Power and money are a bad mix and especially when people get into positions of power even the Church it goes to their head.

This has happened time and time again throughout history where the church as strayed away and then come back to its roots.
 
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