Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

[com7fy8]

It seems much importance is no put on what the individual can get out of life and doing everything to ensure they are fullfilled, happy and satisfied above all else.

About "is no put on" > I think you mean "is now put on". Spell check didn't know if it should be "no" or "not" or "now"

We cannot hurt or help people in how we treat others.

I can see you saying that we "cannot" hurt others, meaning we shouldn't hurt others. But "cannot" "help" others, I don't quite get. What do you mean, here, please? Thanks. As you can see, I read your responses lolololololololol

 

[stevevw]

About "is no put on" > I think you mean "is now put on". Spell check didn't know if it should be "no" or "not" or "now"

Lol I have a tendency to do this and I have to keep going back and correcting. Looks like I missed this one. Yes you got it right.

I can see you saying that we "cannot" hurt others, meaning we shouldn't hurt others. But "cannot" "help" others, I don't quite get. What do you mean, here, please? Thanks. As you can see, I read your responses lolololololololol

Thankyou once again for pointing this out as it may give the wrong message. The point I was trying to make in that muddled mess was that because morality is primarily about how we interact with others it is inevitable that how we interact will either hurt or help people.

Human interaction brings out morality in us naturally. We have a natural sense of empathy towrds others unless we have some mental disorder.

But as humans have both the tendency or nature to be good or evil towards each other we need a ground to place morality into that will unify everyone. These are our social norms and depending on which ideological beliefs society has about how we should order ourselves and society will determine those norms and how we behave towards one another.

But if these norms don't have a grounding in something beyond humans then they will be determined by whoever can influence those norms be it through our institutions and politics. Whoever can put themselves in the position to influence such as through power and money or through activism or just making a lot of noise.

The point is society without some grounding beyond themselves will inevitably lead to a breakdown in democracy and morality and this will eventually lead to its downfall.

 

[stevevw]

Someone here is arguing that if we remove God from the picture, morality becomes a matter of feelings. But this is clearly not the only option. In fact, it seems highly plausible that morality can be grounded in the behaviors which promote the well-being of the society.

The problem is what can be regarded as the right behaviour to wellbeing is itself subjective which often come down to beliefs and attitudes which are based on how people feel about things.

Without some ground beyond humans themselves a bit like how we ground objective reality then its open for however humans believe and feel based on their limited understanding.

For example, one does not need to be Albert Einstein to recognize that behaviors like murder, adultery, theft, lying, etc when practiced in the society lead, on average, to compromise of basic human goals such as peace, justice, opportunity, freedom.

What makes it more complex is that despite these human ideas for grounding morals and the obvious negative consequences we experience people still murder, rape, steal, commit adultery ect and even sometimes promote it believing that it is good. Like adultery, we now think it is just a byproduct of modern human life and therefore permissable if it brings true fullfillment and happiness based on the idea that finding a true partner is the optimal key to happiness in life.

So an alternative moral basis can be believed as being good and right due to humans ideas about what is good and right and yet may well be the destruction of our society in the sense it undermines the natural order of things.

An important point - morality determined on this basis is arguably quite objective, not subjective. In particular, it is highly plausible that certain behaviors in a very objective sense reduce the degree to which desirable societal goals are attained.

Sam Harris thinks along these lines with his 'Moral Landscape' which basically grounds morality in human wellbeing. I think there is some merit in this but I don't think it fully explains human behaviour.It works for obvious wrongs like rape and murder and I think there is some truth that we innately know these things are wrong.

For example babies are born or at least from around 3 months well before any social learning they have a moral sense for empathy, justice and kindness. Tests show gaze on kind behaviour and negative reactions to unkind or unjust behaviour. Babies cry at the sound of other babies crying in pain ect.

But culture can change this into the particular norms it believes are best which as we see can be very different. But fundementally we all know that murder or talkking another persons stuff is wrong, we react intuitively like its wrong or that something is wrong when this happens. Even if we may make rationalisations that its not. The fact we care so much to rationalise and justify things shows we know it means something important to us.

In summary, one need not fall back onto "feelings" to ground morality in something other than God. It seems eminently plausible that one can have objective standards of morality without appealing to a divinity.

I am not sure about this by the way we behave and actually live. Look at the state of affairs in society at the moment and how people are so divided and antagonistic towards each other for even minor infractions. Cancel culture and PC seems to have made us super sensitive about everything, micro agressions and moralizing about even our thinking being the wrong kind of thinking.

 

[stevevw]

Given how it is not showing up in the broader culture, it would seem that this "expression of society" is limited to a sub-culture at best.

Beliefs in Paganism or occultism isn't always that obvious. Look at celebrations like Halloween and how this is seen as just kids having fun and yet its actually influencing culture with how witchery and other pagan rituals and practices are becoming popular especially among the young.

Social media has a powerful influence able to reach billions. As mentioned “WitchTok” has reached something like 18.7 billion views so its influence is far reaching and quick. Especially in an age where young people are looking for meaning. Often much of these beliefs are around spiritual meaning in life, something beyond the day to day experiences which takes people into a happier and make believe reality.

Ideas like “WitchTok” are made consumer friendly and mainstreamed because they are intertwined with appeals to finding the answers to life so people are attracted to stuff like this. Unreal worlds can be created online where people are easily influenced.

Or in Iceland do the gods build temples to themselves:

Surtr - Wikipedia

At least that would be impressive (and demonstrative).

Perhaps more the case that people are once again coming back to these ancient beliefs about the gods working through nature. The point is they are alternatives to belief in supernatural divinity beyond humans even if the gods are given human qualities or that humans give nature godlike qualities.

You have yet to state why any particular form of non-Christian religion is more problematic than any other. Why concern yourself with "paganism" and not Hinduism for example?

The first point is that most if not all religions have a similar core beliefs about creation, the soul, afterlife and morals. They are just expressed in different ways. Flood mythology is one example of how similar beliefs are expressed in different stories.

It makes sense that if there is a God that he installed in us the ability to know him through nature and his creation and morals and meaning to life.

It also makes sense that if there is a god there can only be one God as God represents one truth and order. As for which God that is a another debate which can be made for and against which gods and belief aligns best with the truth and reality asw God is also the God of reality and nature.

The main point is that as humans we will look for gods and believe in divine concepts of the soul and afterlife so spiritual belief is a reality for humans and not some myth or imagination or evolutionary byproduct. Its a real part of being human. So we cannot exist as a society with gods and who we choose as gods to believe in is important as this is what will determine tyhe outcomes for society.

 

[stevevw]

If I accept your claim that society *needs* religion, why are these forms of religion you call "pagan" not acceptable to meet that "need"?

I guess the main source is from our experiences. How exactly belief pans our for us in real life. If it aligns with who we are and the world we live in and is not just some irrational ideology that leads to chaos and a breakdown of society. All beliefs is provide some level of comfort and meaning but it is how it actually aligns with the order of reality of nature and who we are and how the world is.

It seems much of these religions are really about disguising religions beliefs over human ideas and desires. Making our instincts gods like sex because the determination and moral is placed in what humans want and not what the gods require which is something beyond our human desires.

Its no coincident I think that many of these alternative modern beliefs align so well with the free expression of desires, of base instincts along the lines of being animals and not spiritual beings. Rather than having limitations on these desires. Paganism seems to align well with carnal instincts as being divine or made into gods.

Steve, the reality is that most of us who do not believe in your god do not care enough about it to be in "opposition" to it. It is irrelevant to us and our lives. That doesn't matter if we follow another religion or just don't bother with sprituality of any kind, or something in between. Why waste precious time mocking your god? Most don't, not even the pagans.

Hum that doesn't seem to be the case in how people are so desperate to come onto Christian sites and tell Christians or believers how unreal they are and that they hold the truth to life and reality.

I think even atheism or the claim that someone is not religious or doesn't care about religion is in itself a belief position that is not based in any independent basis. Everyone believes in spiritual and divine concepts, Its a basic human cognition just like love is. So the idea that some people think religious belief is a myth and irrelevant is in itself a myth.

 

[dzheremi]

I like living in a secular society, so I don't see many of the issues the OP does. It's not that entertainment that flirts with the Satanic is somehow good (it is obviously not), but that an alternative vision wherein no one can dissent from whatever the 'party line' may be with the government is so prone to horrendous abuse that anyone with half a brain should want to avoid that, as it has never worked out well.

Of course, while writing this, I also recognize that there have been plenty of times when the Church in a given location clearly benefitted from close ties to civil leaders and regimes, so it's not as simple as saying that Church-State symphonia is "good" or "bad" -- it's just something that either is or isn't, to whatever degree it applies or does not apply in whatever place we are looking. In Orthodox Ethiopia, for example, it led to the official refutation of those who refused to honor St. Mary as Theotokos, not by the spilling of blood, but by the decree of Emperor Zar'a Yaqoub (15th century) that all churches within his kingdom would have altars built into them in honor of St. Mary as Theotokos, so that no one would be able to come to any church and somehow avoid at least being reminded of the Church's (and the Empire's) official position, regardless of whether or not they personally agreed with it as a parishioner.

In stark contrast to an example like the above (and sadly much more well-known to most of this website, for obvious demographic reasons), there are also examples where a lack of secularism in the government got people killed for religious reasons, as during the burning of heretics in places like Spain and Switzerland in previous eras.

SO, I would argue that secular society is on the whole a good thing. I don't like the way that America and many other nations are arriving at it -- heedlessly and without any sense that there could be any downside to it at all for anyone ever (because, as another poster pointed out, it is seen as "rational", which a certain kind of western secularist apparently takes as some kind of synonym for "good"?) -- but other places that have actually felt the sting of sectarianism in their very recent past, like Lebanon, have shown a better way towards it, as when Christian and Muslim religious leaders have marched together under banners that declare "Religion is for God -- the homeland is for everyone" (in response to the attempt of some very sick people to foist Saudi-style Islamic terrorism on historically multiconfessional Lebanon), or when the Egyptian 'left' (such that there is one...) has pushed for the elimination of religious sect on official government documents. (No prizes for guessing that having that information on your government ID opens the door to persecution and mistreatment of minorities like Christians, Baha'i, and secularists or atheists, which is absolutely what happens; read up on the stories of people like Sharif Gaber, Mohamed Hegazy, and others whose religious identities or lack thereof are used by serious people in that country to call for their deaths, sometimes with the backing of major Sunni institutions in the country like Al Azhar.)

As far as all this cultural stuff (music, movies, etc.), for as cantankerous as she could be, I think my late grandmother Jean was onto something when she used to repeat to me the mantra "Garbage in, garbage out" (when 8-year-old me wanted to go see Robocop in the theater or whatever). She was an atheist, oddly enough (as was my grandfather, as far as I could ever tell; my mother caused a big stir in the family in the late 1960s when she converted to Christianity, which no one else did, then or subsequently), but even she recognized that there is wisdom in simply not consuming things that leave you worse off for having seen them. Turns out you don't need to be religious to have a good sense of that. And if my eventually 98-year-old atheist grandmother could see that, then certainly Christians can too. You don't have to consume what the overarching culture and worldview presents to you. That's basically how Christian monasticism started (sorta), so you'd be in good company with our fathers and mothers like St. Anthony, St. Moses, Amma Syncletica, Amma Sarah, St. Paul of Thebes, etc. Stepping away from the vainglories of the world so as to better focus on its salvation and transformation is just about the 'most Christian' thing you can do.

 

[BCP1928]

I guess the main source is from our experiences. How exactly belief pans our for us in real life. If it aligns with who we are and the world we live in and is not just some irrational ideology that leads to chaos and a breakdown of society. All beliefs is provide some level of comfort and meaning but it is how it actually aligns with the order of reality of nature and who we are and how the world is.

It seems much of these religions are really about disguising religions beliefs over human ideas and desires. Making our instincts gods like sex because the determination and moral is placed in what humans want and not what the gods require which is something beyond our human desires.

Its no coincident I think that many of these alternative modern beliefs align so well with the free expression of desires, of base instincts along the lines of being animals and not spiritual beings. Rather than having limitations on these desires. Paganism seems to align well with carnal instincts as being divine or made into gods.

So, as usual, it's about sex.

Hum that doesn't seem to be the case in how people are so desperate to come onto Christian sites and tell Christians or believers how unreal they are and that they hold the truth to life and reality.

I think even atheism or the claim that someone is not religious or doesn't care about religion is in itself a belief position that is not based in any independent basis. Everyone believes in spiritual and divine concepts, Its a basic human cognition just like love is. So the idea that some people think religious belief is a myth and irrelevant is in itself a myth.

It's your particular religious belief we are talking about.

 

[expos4ever]

The problem is what can be regarded as the right behaviour to wellbeing is itself subjective which often come down to beliefs and attitudes which are based on how people feel about things.

Let me clarify. I maintain, although I concede I cannot prove this, that it is an objective fact that all human beings who are not "damaged" (e.g., by faulty "wiring" in the brain) have certain values in common: peace, justice, freedom, equal opportunity, comfort, challenge, etc. Furthermore, I suggest it is also an objective fact the certain behaviours - murder, theft, adultery, etc. - work against those values. Therefore, we can reasonably say that prohibitions against such behaviours do indeed constitute an objective moral code.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Beliefs in Paganism or occultism isn't always that obvious. Look at celebrations like Halloween and how this is seen as just kids having fun and yet its actually influencing culture with how witchery and other pagan rituals and practices are becoming popular especially among the young.

Oh good grief -- "Halloween is making kids into pagans". I know this notion has been around for a while, but then so has Halloween. Frankly Halloween seems a good time to teach kids that mummies are just dead people, zombies don't exist, "witches" are either not real (movie witches) or just people with another powerless religion, vampires aren't real (except the bat kind), and superheros don't have real powers.

Social media has a powerful influence able to reach billions. As mentioned “WitchTok” has reached something like 18.7 billion views so its influence is far reaching and quick. Especially in an age where young people are looking for meaning. Often much of these beliefs are around spiritual meaning in life, something beyond the day to day experiences which takes people into a happier and make believe reality.

Ideas like “WitchTok” are made consumer friendly and mainstreamed because they are intertwined with appeals to finding the answers to life so people are attracted to stuff like this. Unreal worlds can be created online where people are easily influenced.

We need to teach kids about skepticism, science, and rationality. Then they won't for for so many shiny things online.

Perhaps more the case that people are once again coming back to these ancient beliefs about the gods working through nature. The point is they are alternatives to belief in supernatural divinity beyond humans even if the gods are given human qualities or that humans give nature godlike qualities.

Frankly tying your spirituality to real things like nature makes more sense. It's still pointless to me, but at least it makes more sense than the tri-omni kinds of gods.

The first point is that most if not all religions have a similar core beliefs about creation, the soul, afterlife and morals. They are just expressed in different ways. Flood mythology is one example of how similar beliefs are expressed in different stories.

It makes sense that if there is a God that he installed in us the ability to know him through nature and his creation and morals and meaning to life.

It also makes sense that if there is a god there can only be one God as God represents one truth and order. As for which God that is a another debate which can be made for and against which gods and belief aligns best with the truth and reality asw God is also the God of reality and nature.

The main point is that as humans we will look for gods and believe in divine concepts of the soul and afterlife so spiritual belief is a reality for humans and not some myth or imagination or evolutionary byproduct. Its a real part of being human. So we cannot exist as a society with gods and who we choose as gods to believe in is important as this is what will determine tyhe outcomes for society.

I'm not interested in this argument and it doesn't answer my question. What's the specific problem with "paganism" instead of other religions? You seem willing to make excuses for people following other religions, but not "paganism".

 

[stevevw]

So, as usual, it's about sex.

Not just about sex but considering sex is such a central aspect of being human which is behind just about every behaviour then yes sex is a big part. Afterall it is the primary reason why we are hear and whether we continue to be hear.

But we can also see the basic instincts at play in all aspects of life. For example the basic instinct for food is another aspect is made into gods. The many harvest festivals and fire burnings associated with solstice and bring hearty crops to make the society strong and godly. These beliefs are becoming popular again throughout the world.

The many new age spiritual beliefs about astrology and readings which are about finding love and happiness or doom in life are along similar lines. Basically pagan and new age spiritualist beliefs are about nature and mother earth being divine so naturally basic human instincts, our animal instincts become part of the belief. Especially sex as its so central to life.

It's your particular religious belief we are talking about.

Why, why do you want to talk about my religion when my point was about the fact that we all have a natural inclination to believe in the supernatural and divine concepts.

I was trying to establish the fact that if its not the Christian God of society then it will be some god or form of spiritualism that takes its place. That its unreal to pretend that we can be belief free or neutral about belief even if someone claims that religion or belief is not a thing in modern society.

Even the fact that the modern idea that no belief is how we should set society up is a belief which competes with religious belief. They are all beliefs. Belief in no religion or the supernatural is belief in nature, materialism, physicalism or even science itself.

You can't seperate philosophy from science because the human is involved and belief is a natural part of being human so any assumption or belief that everything comes down to material matter, the closure of the physical to explain reality and everything is a belief itself.

So the point is whatever belief we choose to satify our inclination to believe in the supernatural and divinity will dictate who we are and how we will order society.

We use to be united that the Christian God was that basis and now for the first time since Christianity became the religion of the Roman Empire and the West we are removing God from the public square completely and even pushing it to the fringes.

In doing that some other belief has come or is being cultivated to fill that void. Many say this is Wokism which began as PC around the same time secular society was finalising the last reminants of Christianity was being removed completely around 20 odd years ago with the redefining of marriage and the removal of the bible and pray from public institutions.

It is inevitable that some belief will fill the void left by God for the West and we will have to wait and see what this will bring. But so far at this present time with the Christian God rejected we are not in a great situation with society divided, waring parties and nations around the world and old enermies like antisemetism and denails of free speech rearing their ugly heads again while democracy seems to be crumbling towards totalitarianism.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I guess the main source is from our experiences. How exactly belief pans our for us in real life. If it aligns with who we are and the world we live in and is not just some irrational ideology that leads to chaos and a breakdown of society. All beliefs is provide some level of comfort and meaning but it is how it actually aligns with the order of reality of nature and who we are and how the world is.

So paganism is no different than any other religion then.

It seems much of these religions are really about disguising religions beliefs over human ideas and desires.

Did you mean the other way around? Using the precepts of a religion to excuse ones desires?

Making our instincts gods like sex because the determination and moral is placed in what humans want and not what the gods require which is something beyond our human desires.

Again, as it has been from the beginning and always shall be, this is about your prudery.

Its no coincident I think that many of these alternative modern beliefs align so well with the free expression of desires, of base instincts along the lines of being animals and not spiritual beings.

We *are* animals, just look at a bit of your tissue under a microscope. It will do wonders for your understanding. That is true no matter what the "spiritual beings" nature of humans actually is.

Rather than having limitations on these desires. Paganism seems to align well with carnal instincts as being divine or made into gods.

Again you seem to misunderstand what a god is. Certainly some religions invoke more worldly desires as *expressions* of divine or spirtual nature, but that doesn't mean "sex is a god".

Now we move into the "explain how the other person is wrong about themselves section of the post...

Hum that doesn't seem to be the case in how people are so desperate to come onto Christian sites and tell Christians or believers how unreal they are and that they hold the truth to life and reality.

I am not desperate to come here (and I've never been on any other Christian site). I came because a rabbit hole of pseudoscience lead me on afternoon to a very long thread on that pseudoscience and the site seemed interesting and welcoming of that kind of discussion. After some time I joined and eventually spread out into other parts of CF with a focus on discussions built on false "facts" or premises.

I think even atheism or the claim that someone is not religious or doesn't care about religion is in itself a belief position that is not based in any independent basis.

It's based on not finding a religious claim to be believable or worth wasting time on. So what.

Everyone believes in spiritual and divine concepts, Its a basic human cognition just like love is.

No we don't. I know this because *I* don't believe in any spritual or divine concepts. None.

So the idea that some people think religious belief is a myth and irrelevant is in itself a myth.

I don't think people believing in things is a myth. It is very clear that they do (including you). It doesn't seem to be irrelevant to your life, but it is to mine.

 

[BCP1928]

Not just about sex but considering sex is such a central aspect of being human which is behind just about every behaviour then yes sex is a big part. Afterall it is the primary reason why we are hear and whether we continue to be hear.

But we can also see the basic instincts at play in all aspects of life. For example the basic instinct for food is another aspect is made into gods. The many harvest festivals and fire burnings associated with solstice and bring hearty crops to make the society strong and godly. These beliefs are becoming popular again throughout the world.

The many new age spiritual beliefs about astrology and readings which are about finding love and happiness or doom in life are along similar lines. Basically pagan and new age spiritualist beliefs are about nature and mother earth being divine so naturally basic human instincts, our animal instincts become part of the belief. Especially sex as its so central to life.

Why is that a problem for you?

Why, why do you want to talk about my religion when my point was about the fact that we all have a natural inclination to believe in the supernatural and divine concepts.

Because you only ever talk about your religion, vs. all the other religions including other Christians.

I was trying to establish the fact that if its not the Christian God of society then it will be some god or form of spiritualism that takes its place. That its unreal to pretend that we can be belief free or neutral about belief even if someone claims that religion or belief is not a thing in modern society.

Even the fact that the modern idea that no belief is how we should set society up is a belief which competes with religious belief. They are all beliefs. Belief in no religion or the supernatural is belief in nature, materialism, physicalism or even science itself.

You can't seperate philosophy from science because the human is involved and belief is a natural part of being human so any assumption or belief that everything comes down to material matter, the closure of the physical to explain reality and everything is a belief itself.

So the point is whatever belief we choose to satify our inclination to believe in the supernatural and divinity will dictate who we are and how we will order society.

We use to be united that the Christian God was that basis and now for the first time since Christianity became the religion of the Roman Empire and the West we are removing God from the public square completely and even pushing it to the fringes.

In doing that some other belief has come or is being cultivated to fill that void. Many say this is Wokism which began as PC around the same time secular society was finalising the last reminants of Christianity was being removed completely around 20 odd years ago with the redefining of marriage and the removal of the bible and pray from public institutions.

Here, for example, you speak about your religion as if it was the entirety of Christianity

 

[stevevw]

Let me clarify. I maintain, although I concede I cannot prove this, that it is an objective fact that all human beings who are not "damaged" (e.g., by faulty "wiring" in the brain) have certain values in common: peace, justice, freedom, equal opportunity, comfort, challenge, etc.

Yes I agree and supported this with how humans are born with a sense of justice, kindness and empathy towards others.

Furthermore, I suggest it is also an objective fact the certain behaviours - murder, theft, adultery, etc. - work against those values. Therefore, we can reasonably say that prohibitions against such behaviours do indeed constitute an objective moral code.

In theory yes and we sort of make them objective by encoding them in laws and make them unalienable under Human Rights. But at the same time we contradict ourselves in that we also believe these are relative, that another culture different from our Western moral understanding may have developed a different morality due to their relative position.

So even what we would consider wrong such as the death penalty, different sexual beliefs such as polygamy, child brides, female circumcision, are to be tolerated as just different cultural beliefs rather than being objectively wrong.

So we can't have it both ways where we say morals are relative and at the same time say they are objective and then force every culture to conform to the Wests ideas and beliefs about morality. Some would even say that even objective science and rationalism itself is a tool for imposing a westernised ideology of belief about what is true knowledge anout morality and reality.

The strange thing is we should if ever there was a time for believing in objective science or evolution to ground morals its now, today where we have more information on how these bad behaviours can do damage. Yet it seems Postmodern society is rejecting objective truths in favour of relativism, self referential reality and truth.

Many are rejecting science as an oppressive tool of the west and vying for self discovered truths in identity which is subjective and based on self percieved feelings and beliefs about humans and the world. So it seems objective science is not enough, it seems to be missing something which is beyond objective reality.

Thats why I think humans are limited in their understanding of morality and limiting it to rationality is not enough. Morals cannot be reduced to facts or figures and theres another dimension beyong this that is missing in the equation even if the facts and figures add up.

 

[BCP1928]

Yes I agree and supported this with how humans are born with a sense of justice, kindness and empathy towards others.

In theory yes and we sort of make them objective by encoding them in laws and make them unalienable under Human Rights. But at the same time we contradict ourselves in that we also believe these are relative, that another culture different from our Western moral understanding may have developed a different morality due to their relative position.

So even what we would consider wrong such as the death penalty, different sexual beliefs such as polygamy, child brides, female circumcision, are to be tolerated as just different cultural beliefs rather than being objectively wrong.

Sex again. And the death penalty, that's a nice change. A majority of Christians in this country support the death penalty.

So we can't have it both ways where we say morals are relative and at the same time say they are objective and then force every culture to conform to the Wests ideas and beliefs about morality. Some would even say that even objective science and rationalism itself is a tool for imposing a westernised ideology of belief about what is true knowledge anout morality and reality.

The strange thing is we should if ever there was a time for believing in objective science or evolution to ground morals its now, today where we have more information on how these bad behaviours can do damage. Yet it seems Postmodern society is rejecting objective truths in favour of relativism, self referential reality and truth.

What objective truths are these?

 

[stevevw]

Oh good grief -- "Halloween is making kids into pagans". I know this notion has been around for a while, but then so has Halloween. Frankly Halloween seems a good time to teach kids that mummies are just dead people, zombies don't exist, "witches" are either not real (movie witches) or just people with another powerless religion, vampires aren't real (except the bat kind), and superheros don't have real powers.

Well that doesn't seem to be whats happening. Like I said witchery is becoming the faster growing belief online with young people. So celebrating Halloween is only going to reinforce this belief. It has taken on new meaning beyond just a fun activity for kids.

We need to teach kids about skepticism, science, and rationality. Then they won't for for so many shiny things online.

I agree but in an age where we have more access to facts, and science it seems that is not enough to stop people believing in supernatural ideas. So to some extent science and rationality is not enough to stop belief because its innate in us. The very idea of belieeef is to believe despite knowing the facts.

Frankly tying your spirituality to real things like nature makes more sense. It's still pointless to me, but at least it makes more sense than the tri-omni kinds of gods.

Belief should cohere with nature and objective reality. If God is the creator of nature and reality then it makes sense that His order should be reflected in His creation.

Christian belief, the core truths about Gods order for nature and human nature align with reality and create order as they are in harmony with Gods order. But when beliefs move away from this it brings chaos.

I'm not interested in this argument and it doesn't answer my question. What's the specific problem with "paganism" instead of other religions? You seem willing to make excuses for people following other religions, but not "paganism".

Not sure what you mean by making excuses for other religions. The paganistic belief we have today has morphed into a modern version which reflects modern life. The problem is modern paganism is really a vehicle for basically allowing people to live with whatever moral feelings they think are ok. Mixing feelings and human instinct into divine status over any inhibition.

Thats why its often about dancing around fires, drum beats, acting like animals. Its appealing to the senses as being divine whereas traditional religion is about limiting those base desires because they are what leads to sin. The bible calls them sins of the flesh. So paganism and the nature and earth beliefs are about celebrating the flesh aspect of being human in the spiritual sense as opposed to Christianity focusing on the spiritual aspect as a fight against the flesh.

 

[BCP1928]

Well that doesn't seem to be whats happening. Like I said witchery is becoming the faster growing belief online with young people. So celebrating Halloween is only going to reinforce this belief. It has taken on new meaning beyond just a fun activity for kids.

I agree but in an age where we have more access to facts, and science it seems that is not enough to stop people believing in supernatural ideas. So to some extent science and rationality is not enough to stop belief because its innate in us. The very idea of belieeef is to believe despite knowing the facts.

Belief should cohere with nature and objective reality. If God is the creator of nature and reality then it makes sense that His order should be reflected in His creation.

Christian belief, the core truths about Gods order for nature and human nature align with reality and create order as they are in harmony with Gods order. But when beliefs move away from this it brings chaos.

No, when beliefs move away from what you think "God's order" is, it doesn't bring chaos. In fact, it is a positive development.

Not sure what you mean by making excuses for other religions. The paganistic belief we have today has morphed into a modern version which reflects modern life. The problem is modern paganism is really a vehicle for basically allowing people to live with whatever moral feelings they think are ok. Mixing feelings and human instinct into divine status over any inhibition.

Thats why its often about dancing around fires, drum beats, acting like animals. Its appealing to the senses as being divine whereas traditional religion is about limiting those base desires because they are what leads to sin. The bible calls them sins of the flesh. So paganism and the nature and earth beliefs are about celebrating the flesh aspect of being human in the spiritual sense as opposed to Christianity focusing on the spiritual aspect as a fight against the flesh.

"Fight against the flesh." Sex again.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Not sure what you mean by making excuses for other religions. The paganistic belief we have today has morphed into a modern version which reflects modern life. The problem is modern paganism is really a vehicle for basically allowing people to live with whatever moral feelings they think are ok. Mixing feelings and human instinct into divine status over any inhibition.

When it is convenient to your argument, any god will do but paganism for some reason. I think you are confusing hedonism with paganism and I doubt you have the slightest clue what modern pagans are teaching about morality or ethics. You just see a ritual and project some opinion on it.

 

[dlamberth]

So paganism and the nature and earth beliefs are about celebrating the flesh aspect of being human in the spiritual sense as opposed to Christianity focusing on the spiritual aspect as a fight against the flesh.

As I've grown, I honer the sensuous, or the flesh as you call it as a vehicle for God to speak to us. For instance, God speaks to our Heart through nature. Nature touches our senses. Take the beauty of a Rose or the laughter of an infant with the sparkle of light in her eyes and how that touches us. Or even Jesus who came in the flesh. That Pagan's get that reality and Christian's don't has much to do with the OP and to be honest, my own spiritual preferences.

As an aside, the more I read your posts the more I'm convinced that you have no real world experience of the what, why and how of Paganism.

 

[bèlla]

It's obvious Christians have no response for paganism beyond it's bad. They've yet to reconcile the most unattractive element of Christianity are its adherents. Pagan practices reveal a willingness to believe in the unseen, study the elements of their beliefs and apply them in daily living.

They're more likely to encounter a church than a fellow pagan while out and about. But there's something about the church that's so off-putting they'd rather go to witchtok than in the building. That's the elephant in the room. Not the latest TikTok trend.

~bella

 

[stevevw]

So paganism is no different than any other religion then.

No because theres not really any restrictions on sin and in fact can promote our base desires.

Did you mean the other way around? Using the precepts of a religion to excuse ones desires?

yes

Again, as it has been from the beginning and always shall be, this is about your prudery.

If you want to call having some moral standards to sex and other desires being something more than just base desire.

We *are* animals, just look at a bit of your tissue under a microscope. It will do wonders for your understanding. That is true no matter what the "spiritual beings" nature of humans actually is.

Yes but humans are more than just our base animal desires and instinct. We are spiritual and moral beings as well. An animal can rape, kill and steal another animals catch as part of its animalistic nature and its just what they do. But its completely different when humans do it to each other.

Again you seem to misunderstand what a god is. Certainly some religions invoke more worldly desires as *expressions* of divine or spirtual nature, but that doesn't mean "sex is a god".

Actually I think you are misunderstanding the pagan gods. They make sex a god or make sex divine in how other gods came about or in how they give sex divine power.

Of course the gods of love and ferility are involved as well but they are all about human aspects being made divine or godlike. But it seems the sex god is the big daddy of the gods which births other gods. For example the gods Uranus and Thalassa births several gods through violent and graphic sex including Aphrodite which is the god of sex and beauty.

Now we move into the "explain how the other person is wrong about themselves section of the post...

But havn't you already started doing that. I thought we were already in that phase when you started telling Christians and people how wrong they are about themselves and their beliefs.

I am not desperate to come here (and I've never been on any other Christian site). I came because a rabbit hole of pseudoscience lead me on afternoon to a very long thread on that pseudoscience and the site seemed interesting and welcoming of that kind of discussion. After some time I joined and eventually spread out into other parts of CF with a focus on discussions built on false "facts" or premises.

It's based on not finding a religious claim to be believable or worth wasting time on. So what.

Fair enough.. But I find it interesting that some atheists more or less do the same as Christians in preaching but in reverse which to me seems more a reflection of belief. I mean I have seen sites that have some crazy ideas but I don't bother getting involved and spend time trying to show them the error of their thinking.

It just seems to me that some spend an aweful lot of time and energy trying to dispute something they don't believe in.

No we don't. I know this because *I* don't believe in any spritual or divine concepts. None.

Then you know better than the research and behavioural science. Sure people can be encultured to not believe but that doesn't mean that we don't have an innate spirituality.

I don't think people believing in things is a myth. It is very clear that they do (including you). It doesn't seem to be irrelevant to your life, but it is to mine.

Thats fair enough. Perhaps once it was and maybe will be in the future. But its a natural part of being human and has been proven so. The most common belief people have including many who don't believe in God or gods is the soul or consciousness beyond mind.