Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

[RDKirk]

Thats a false analogy of the CHristian God. The 10 Commandments also say don't steal or commit adultery but many do and its the same for all religions. God has His laws just like society does but that doesn't force anyone to follow those laws. God gives us the free will to choose or not choose to believe and follow Him.

No it doesn't. It was more than just that. Its principles of making all equal before the law whether king or peasant is the same principle as all people being equal in other rights. These same principles were evolved into early Bill of Rights and then national Constitutions and Declarations.

But like I said we can go back further to when Christianity became the religion of the Roman Empire. At the time the Empire religion was Paganism which regarded people as property. Males were above women who were above slaves. Males were allowed adultery and homosexuality was the norm for many well to do men.

Christianity changed all that making all people including women equal as a biblical principle of being equal in Christ whether slave or free. Of course adultery was stopped giving wives more protection and homosexuality and other practices with Pagan belief. People were given more worth as being made in Gods image.

These same principle went on to form the basis for the average persons Rights which were reflected in the Magna Carta, Bill of Rights and especially the American Declaration of Independence. The same principles are found in Human Rights.

The principle that all humans are made in Gods image is still reflected in HR in that all people are endowed with natural unalienable Rights. Meaning no human whether State or any power can deny those Rights. Humans are born with those Rights like they are a law of nature.

Enlightment era philosophers had already been "tainted" by those concepts of Christianity.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Not sure what you mean. Mentioning how the entertainment industry is practicing Pagan rituals and beliefs is related to the OP as following false beliefs was part of going down the road to S&G. They just happened to follow similar beliefs.

The "entertainment industry" isn't "practicing" pagan rituals and beliefs. SMH. Do you not know about "performative provocation"? Are you thinking of that rapper who did the whole think with "satan" on stage at a recent major event? (And similar things.) What makes you think these are beliefs and not performance? They are doing this to get attention and get people worked up. It looks like it is working on you.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Well that would have been interesting. But how does that show that wearing animalistic head rests is a Christian ritual.

I didn't say that animal skins were part of Christian rituals, I said that the last time I saw someone in "pagan headdress" they were praying to Jesus in a government building. (The "Q-shaman" in the US Senate chamber on Jan 6th during the insurrection.) My point is that when you see someone in "pagan dress" it is not necessarily a sign that they are not Christian.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Many new age beliefs are based in Paganism in worshiping nature, animals, crystals, trees ect and this seems to be the biggest growth in belief. Even the Vikings gods are becoiming more popular or the worship of astrology and the sun and moon. Even events like Halloween are takking on new meaning as a form of paganism and witchery.

Why paganism and witchcraft are making a comeback
Witchcraft, which includes Wicca, paganism, folk magic and other New Age traditions, is one of the fastest-growing spiritual

Some people have other religions. So what? That's all this part of your complaint is. Would you issue the same panic about the existence of Hindus worshiping their gods? (Perhaps you would, I don't know.)

 

[Hans Blaster]

When people don't choose to believe in God or a god they make gods out of humans.

I never chose to believe or not in any god. Nor did I make a god of any human. (I don't know anyone who makes a god of any human.)

It is the natural thing to do if people believed in some sort of divine aspect of reality they would endow the divinity with human qualities and make themselves gods or vessels for the gods to speak on behalf of the gods to the people.

And what if we don't believe in any divine aspect of reality? What then?

Why, don't secularist believe in subjective morality, that morals are based on feelings and not anything objective. It seems a natural evolution that if God is removed as the moral law giver then morality would naturally fall back on feelings. If it feels good is morally good and if it causes pain and displeasure its morally bad.

Until you make even the slightest effort to understand any secular moral or ethical system, there is no point in continuing any discussion involving the topic with you.

 

[dlamberth]

But like I said we can go back further to when Christianity became the religion of the Roman Empire. At the time the Empire religion was Paganism which regarded people as property. Males were above women who were above slaves. Males were allowed adultery and homosexuality was the norm for many well to do men.

Christianity changed all that making all people including women equal as a biblical principle of being equal in Christ whether slave or free. Of course adultery was stopped giving wives more protection and homosexuality and other practices with Pagan belief. People were given more worth as being made in Gods image.

I read this and felt the need to say that through out most of Christian history women were very much considered little more than slaves owned and controlled by men. Males were absolutely considered above women in every way. And women were often treated very badly both in the home and in society. I'd argue that enlightenment changed things...not Christianity.

 

[expos4ever]

Someone here is arguing that if we remove God from the picture, morality becomes a matter of feelings. But this is clearly not the only option. In fact, it seems highly plausible that morality can be grounded in the behaviors which promote the well-being of the society.

For example, one does not need to be Albert Einstein to recognize that behaviors like murder, adultery, theft, lying, etc when practiced in the society lead, on average, to compromise of basic human goals such as peace, justice, opportunity, freedom.

An important point - morality determined on this basis is arguably quite objective, not subjective. In particular, it is highly plausible that certain behaviors in a very objective sense reduce the degree to which desirable societal goals are attained.

In summary, one need not fall back onto "feelings" to ground morality in something other than God. It seems eminently plausible that one can have objective standards of morality without appealing to a divinity.

 

[com7fy8]

Also in those times people were made gods when theres no transcendent God. As self is god desires and feelings and self experience becomes the god. Therefore pleasure and all the good feelings are moral and the aweful feeling ones are sin.

So are we seeing a repeat of the down fall of society like Sodom and Gormorrah or like with how Empires have fallen where sexxual immorality and pleasure and where the created is worshipped and not the Creator.

"One thing leads to another."

There could be a domino effect sort of a thing. One thing falls, then another fad stands until it falls, then another fad stands and gets taken down.

Jesus seems to say that people in Capernaum were worse than the ones in Sodom and Gomorrah.

"And you, Capernam, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been one in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.'" (Matthew 11:23)

And the ones in Sodom weren't just gay, but trying to gang rape the angels who visited at Lot's house. And Jesus seems to say Capernaum was worse . . . maybe because they were directly rejecting Jesus Himself.

So, it is possible that religious hypocrites are more displeasing to Jesus, than gays are.

I myself have been very conceited, able to use my religious stuff to seem like I was superior to others. I was possibly worse than some number of immoral people. I could welcome an excuse to look down on someone else, instead of caring about any other person and praying with hope for the person.

 

[com7fy8]

Yes this is based on Human Rights which is founded on Christian values and principles. But speaking of murdering people because of their identity that is exactly what Woke identity politics has created in modern society.

Well, sodomites were supposed to be stoned, under Mosaic Law. And in later history we have had plenty of killing of peoples of a different race, including how the American military and vigilantes murdered Indian wives and their children, in order to take their lands. And this happened even after "rights" of the individual was written into American documents.

So, in case Woke does favor some sort of culling ones not of their feather . . . it is not their invention.

But both Communists and Democrats in history have used killing in order to get their way; and then they say, "Oh, let's have peace and equality" . . . for somebody. And if you challenge them, once they have gotten what they so treasure, they can get very upset at how they are being treated so badly!!

But kids can do this >

"No you can't have more candy."
"YOU HATE ME!!"

If you mess with what is a real treasure for a person, that person can get very nasty and negative and explosive and crazy with anger.

Even in recent military escapades of democratic countries, we have seen thousands of noncombatants killed. They seem to value the lives of their soldiers more than the lives of the noncombatants where they are fighting. Possibly, it has something to do with how it can cost half a million dollars to prepare one soldier, and/or other reasons? Anyway, ones can readily forget equality, if it means sacrificing your money or your own people.

One of the core beliefs of CHristianity that we are made in Gods image with natural God given unalienable rights is a core fundemental truth principle for which Human Rights are based on.

Well . . . what matters is how we use any rights we may have.

And God is about family caring and sharing. So, I need to use my rights as a means to join and share in sensitive caring with others who are able to love as God's family. I need to not isolate myself with what I might have a right to have, but be able to sacrifice whatever keeps me from sensitively and kindly sharing with others, or reaching to ones who do not know how to love.

Jesus left Heaven itself, in order to personally and compassionately share with us and bring us to God. And He chose His twelve "that they might be with Him," we have in Mark 3:14, "and that He might send them forth to preach," > so, Jesus did not only call people so He could use them, but He wants tender and personal sharing with us, and then do what is our service and ministerial calling.

And this is so better than what our human rights might be able to get for us.

So, if we put our attention into the wrong place, we can keep finding ourselves in the wrong place.

 

[stevevw]

The "entertainment industry" isn't "practicing" pagan rituals and beliefs. SMH. Do you not know about "performative provocation"? Are you thinking of that rapper who did the whole think with "satan" on stage at a recent major event? (And similar things.) What makes you think these are beliefs and not performance? They are doing this to get attention and get people worked up. It looks like it is working on you.

Art has always been the barometer of expressing where society is at and thinking. The growth and popularity of beliefs like Paganism and other New Age spiritualism have been emerging in the last couple of decades. Its more than just entertainment value and actually becoming a part of culture.

Some nations like Iceland are building temples to the Nordic gods once again, worshipping at places like Stonehenge and the solstic are becoming popular in England and Europe. In Scotland many are now celebrating the ancient Celtic Fire Festivals and in the UK Burning Man Festivals.

In Greece, Hellenists are promoting the worship of the ancient deities Zeus, Apollo, and Athena, while at the Getty Museum in Los Angeles, children write prayers to Aphrodite or Venus, the Greco-Roman goddess of love and lust—and patron goddess of prostitutes. In Eastern Europe, people celebrate ancient fertility rites by dancing around and jumping over fires, customs from a pre-Christian past.

In Russia, church leaders note with concern the growing interest in pagan traditions. In America, the fastest-growing religion is witchcraft, and statues promoting satanism appear on public grounds. The U.S. Air Force Academy has even constructed a pagan chapel.

These same themes are present in the entertainment industry which represents and relects where society is at. There is a general spiritual growth in ancient beliefs associated with idols, mother earth, nature, crystals, witchery, satanism, paganism and the anciest gods.

THE RISE OF MODERN PAGANISM
Today, the Western nations, once considered “Christian,” appear to be in the midst of a “pagan revival,”

The Rise of Modern Paganism

Ancient nature religions, long thought dead by many, are reemerging across Western nations. Why is this happening? And what does it portend?

www.tomorrowsworld.org

WitchTok: the rise of the occult on social media has eerie parallels with the 16th century

WitchTok: the rise of the occult on social media has eerie parallels with the 16th century

What’s behind Gen Z’s appetite for tarot and spells? 16th century debates about witchcraft help explain why the occult has become viral on TikTok.

theconversation.com

 

[stevevw]

I didn't say that animal skins were part of Christian rituals, I said that the last time I saw someone in "pagan headdress" they were praying to Jesus in a government building. (The "Q-shaman" in the US Senate chamber on Jan 6th during the insurrection.) My point is that when you see someone in "pagan dress" it is not necessarily a sign that they are not Christian.

I think for the most part it does. Its not something that Christians would usually where considering its anti Christian Aassociations. I am not sure this "Q-shaman" fellow was in the right frame of mind anyway to be saying he represents Christians wearing a pagan headdress by the looks of what Wiki says about him.

Jacob Anthony Angeli Chansley (born 1988),[1] also known as the QAnon Shaman,[2] Q Shaman,[1][3] and Yellowstone Wolf,[4][5] is an American far-right conspiracy theorist, rioter,[6] and convicted felon.

Felony - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[stevevw]

Some people have other religions. So what? That's all this part of your complaint is. Would you issue the same panic about the existence of Hindus worshiping their gods? (Perhaps you would, I don't know.)

My point was that society cannot operate religion free or be without some sort of spiritual aspect to life. When God is removed from society as the basis for belief then a void is left which has to be filled with something.

That could be any religion , god, spiritual idea, divine concept. It seems at present some form of modern paganism is filling the void. Its interesting that this was the same kind of belief that the ancients turned to when they rejected God.

The modern form seems to even mock God, blantantly act in opposition to God which is interesting. I think its popular because it allows people to express themselves spiritually and gives some meaning like religion where people belong to a group of likeminded people.

 

[stevevw]

I never chose to believe or not in any god. Nor did I make a god of any human. (I don't know anyone who makes a god of any human.)

Makes gods of human ideas and beliefs like nature or even science itself. Materialism, money, people, celebs ect.

celebs
And what if we don't believe in any divine aspect of reality? What then?

Everyone believes in some sort of divine aspect of reality. They just express it in different ways even if that is some humanistic idea that transcends objective reality. Human aspects are injected into divine or supernatural entities. Even superheroes are a form of supernaturalism given to those human form superheroes.

Until you make even the slightest effort to understand any secular moral or ethical system, there is no point in continuing any discussion involving the topic with you.

So secular morality has nothing to do with feelings. I gave you evidence showing that the new measure of morality is feelings.

 

[stevevw]

I read this and felt the need to say that through out most of Christian history women were very much considered little more than slaves owned and controlled by men. Males were absolutely considered above women in every way. And women were often treated very badly both in the home and in society. I'd argue that enlightenment changed things...not Christianity.

Under Roman rule married women had not rights and were treated like 2nd class citizens. Husbands could have affairs as a right and wives had to put up with it. Wives had no rights to their husbands estate.

But once Christianity took over wives were seen as equal and could inherit their husbands estate, husbands were not allowed to have affairs or commit adultery or at least it was frowned upon and forbidden.

These were fundemental teachings of Christianity where women as with all people were seen as equal in Christ and marriage and sex was between husband and wife while marriage was a lifelong commitment.

I realize that later and on other occassions males became dominant and then forced women to be subserviant in work and society. But this was not just a Christian thing. As early forms of work were labour intensive males being stronger naturally dominated work and industry. It was from this natural evolving basis that males oppressed women by creating situations to hold onto that domination while denying women progression.

It was still wrong in Christian terms and it seems the Church has continually drifted away from Christian teachings and Gods word. But this doesn't change the fact that it was the Christian teachings that introduced these new moral standards for society to base how we see people, wives, husbands, sex, marriage and how each person has intrinsic equal worth as being made in Gods image with unalienable rights.

 

[stevevw]

"One thing leads to another."

There could be a domino effect sort of a thing. One thing falls, then another fad stands until it falls, then another fad stands and gets taken down.

Jesus seems to say that people in Capernaum were worse than the ones in Sodom and Gomorrah.

"And you, Capernam, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been one in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.'" (Matthew 11:23)

And the ones in Sodom weren't just gay, but trying to gang rape the angels who visited at Lot's house. And Jesus seems to say Capernaum was worse . . . maybe because they were directly rejecting Jesus Himself.

So, it is possible that religious hypocrites are more displeasing to Jesus, than gays are.

This is interesting. All people have the knowledge of God and His laws in their hearts and conscience even before Christ so are still accountable for their sin. Sin is the road to death and left unjudged will destroys a city or nation as in the Old Testament days.

But it seems because we have Christ we have more responsibility. The people in Capernaum witnessed Christ and yet still did not believe. Such is human nature to rebel against God and give in to worldly desires and sin.

This is the case today in that CHrist is still in the world and His presense is seen and felt and yet many still don't believe and choose to go along with this world over Gods Kingdom.

But even many who claim to be of Christ are Pharisees and hypocrites who have even more responsibility as they know Christ but decieve others for personal gratification and to make themselves look good before others. Thats why I guess the first will be last and the last will be first.

I myself have been very conceited, able to use my religious stuff to seem like I was superior to others. I was possibly worse than some number of immoral people. I could welcome an excuse to look down on someone else, instead of caring about any other person and praying with hope for the person.

We can all be like this and its good you recognise this. Being too comfortable and conplacent in our faith and using it as a crutch. But I think today if we are truely in Christ we will be challenged to faith as society will hate Christ more today and as we are seeing Christianity is seen as hate and trouble making to modern ideas of what is right and good.

But Christ showed us how we can enter Gods kingdom through the Good Samaritan story. So I agree caring for others especially those who society may reject or look down on or even hate you is being Christlike.

 

[stevevw]

Well, sodomites were supposed to be stoned, under Mosaic Law. And in later history we have had plenty of killing of peoples of a different race, including how the American military and vigilantes murdered Indian wives and their children, in order to take their lands. And this happened even after "rights" of the individual was written into American documents.

So, in case Woke does favor some sort of culling ones not of their feather . . . it is not their invention.

Yes I agree, its just a new manifestation of an ideology that believes and claims its doing the right thing but is actually not. A misguided or perhaps selfly motivated idea where they deny reality, deny the reality of their behaviour causing others harm rather than good. Even if its wrapped in nobel causes and protecting others. Or as they say "we are doing this for your own good or for the good of humankind".

Groups like Extinction rebellion are a good example of how they even express the idea that its ok to allow people to suffer and even die now to save the planet. Or its ok to deny the rights of some to protect others even to the point they suffer and have their lives destroyed.

But both Communists and Democrats in history have used killing in order to get their way; and then they say, "Oh, let's have peace and equality" . . . for somebody. And if you challenge them, once they have gotten what they so treasure, they can get very upset at how they are being treated so badly!!

But kids can do this >

"No you can't have more candy."
"YOU HATE ME!!"

If you mess with what is a real treasure for a person, that person can get very nasty and negative and explosive and crazy with anger.

I think we as a society have personalised everything. Words and language are seen as violence. People have thin skins and cannot handle reality. Certainly mental illness is a big problem today where people feel like life has no meaning and they feel they are not good enough.

Even in recent military escapades of democratic countries, we have seen thousands of noncombatants killed. They seem to value the lives of their soldiers more than the lives of the noncombatants where they are fighting. Possibly, it has something to do with how it can cost half a million dollars to prepare one soldier, and/or other reasons? Anyway, ones can readily forget equality, if it means sacrificing your money or your own people.

I think media and social media has changed how people see things and we have blow by blow coverage of everything and people are being thrust into these situations in their lounge rooms and its getting to them. Everyone has a voice through social media and theres millions of voices all expression themselves and we soon cannot tell what is really happening. Fake news mixed with real news, wars one minute and celebrity and reality TV the next.

Well . . . what matters is how we use any rights we may have.

Or whats important is to know what Rights we have and to realise they are intrinsic and unalienable. Universal Rights as humans beings not as identity groups which divide rather than unite us.

And God is about family caring and sharing. So, I need to use my rights as a means to join and share in sensitive caring with others who are able to love as God's family. I need to not isolate myself with what I might have a right to have, but be able to sacrifice whatever keeps me from sensitively and kindly sharing with others, or reaching to ones who do not know how to love.

Yes and the key word is 'sacrifice' as Christ did. Sacrifice ourselves for the sake of the other, the group if personal desires stand in the way.

This is missing in modern society, the idea that people sacrifice themselves in marriage, in duty to society, to others in need and sometimes forgo personal ambition, desire or fullfillment. It seems much importance is no put on what the individual can get out of life and doing everything to ensure they are fullfilled, happy and satisfied above all else.

Jesus left Heaven itself, in order to personally and compassionately share with us and bring us to God. And He chose His twelve "that they might be with Him," we have in Mark 3:14, "and that He might send them forth to preach," > so, Jesus did not only call people so He could use them, but He wants tender and personal sharing with us, and then do what is our service and ministerial calling.

Yes and we need a lot more of it. Actually going out there and sacrificing for Christ. The world would be in a much better place. But it would be in a much worse place if not for the many Churches and charities that take care of others which society forgets and neglects.

And this is so better than what our human rights might be able to get for us.

I think its living human rights. Morality is actually about how we treat others. Morality is created when people come together as a natural aspect of interacting. We cannot hurt or help people in how we treat others. We have a natural born empathy for others but unfortunately we also have this evil side to us.

I think its only when we ground ourselves in God or some greater transcendent good that we can overcome that selfish nature.

So, if we put our attention into the wrong place, we can keep finding ourselves in the wrong place.

Yes we are what we eat and we reep what we sow. We are what we fill our hearts and minds with.

The Pharisees tried to look good on the outside being all rightous but they were full of deceit and corruption on the inside. While others may look unworthy on the outside but are quietly helping others and full of Christ.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Art has always been the barometer of expressing where society is at and thinking. The growth and popularity of beliefs like Paganism and other New Age spiritualism have been emerging in the last couple of decades. Its more than just entertainment value and actually becoming a part of culture.

Given how it is not showing up in the broader culture, it would seem that this "expression of society" is limited to a sub-culture at best.

Some nations like Iceland are building temples to the Nordic gods once again, worshipping at places like Stonehenge and the solstic are becoming popular in England and Europe. In Scotland many are now celebrating the ancient Celtic Fire Festivals and in the UK Burning Man Festivals.

Or in Iceland do the gods build temples to themselves:

Surtr - Wikipedia

At least that would be impressive (and demonstrative).

In Greece, Hellenists are promoting the worship of the ancient deities Zeus, Apollo, and Athena, while at the Getty Museum in Los Angeles, children write prayers to Aphrodite or Venus, the Greco-Roman goddess of love and lust—and patron goddess of prostitutes. In Eastern Europe, people celebrate ancient fertility rites by dancing around and jumping over fires, customs from a pre-Christian past.

In Russia, church leaders note with concern the growing interest in pagan traditions. In America, the fastest-growing religion is witchcraft, and statues promoting satanism appear on public grounds. The U.S. Air Force Academy has even constructed a pagan chapel.

These same themes are present in the entertainment industry which represents and relects where society is at. There is a general spiritual growth in ancient beliefs associated with idols, mother earth, nature, crystals, witchery, satanism, paganism and the anciest gods.

THE RISE OF MODERN PAGANISM
Today, the Western nations, once considered “Christian,” appear to be in the midst of a “pagan revival,”

The Rise of Modern Paganism

Ancient nature religions, long thought dead by many, are reemerging across Western nations. Why is this happening? And what does it portend?

www.tomorrowsworld.org

WitchTok: the rise of the occult on social media has eerie parallels with the 16th century

WitchTok: the rise of the occult on social media has eerie parallels with the 16th century

What’s behind Gen Z’s appetite for tarot and spells? 16th century debates about witchcraft help explain why the occult has become viral on TikTok.

theconversation.com

You have yet to state why any particular form of non-Christian religion is more problematic than any other. Why concern yourself with "paganism" and not Hinduism for example?

 

[Hans Blaster]

My point was that society cannot operate religion free or be without some sort of spiritual aspect to life. When God is removed from society as the basis for belief then a void is left which has to be filled with something.

That could be any religion , god, spiritual idea, divine concept. It seems at present some form of modern paganism is filling the void. Its interesting that this was the same kind of belief that the ancients turned to when they rejected God.

If I accept your claim that society *needs* religion, why are these forms of religion you call "pagan" not acceptable to meet that "need"?

The modern form seems to even mock God, blantantly act in opposition to God which is interesting. I think its popular because it allows people to express themselves spiritually and gives some meaning like religion where people belong to a group of likeminded people.

Steve, the reality is that most of us who do not believe in your god do not care enough about it to be in "opposition" to it. It is irrelevant to us and our lives. That doesn't matter if we follow another religion or just don't bother with sprituality of any kind, or something in between. Why waste precious time mocking your god? Most don't, not even the pagans.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Makes gods of human ideas and beliefs like nature or even science itself. Materialism, money, people, celebs ect.

Seems like a waste of time. (But then, I always found all religion to be a waste of time.)

Everyone believes in some sort of divine aspect of reality.

How many times do I have to tell you -- NO WE DON'T.

They just express it in different ways even if that is some humanistic idea that transcends objective reality. Human aspects are injected into divine or supernatural entities. Even superheroes are a form of supernaturalism given to those human form superheroes.

Superheros are as real to me as any other supernatural thing. (Not at all real.) (And The Batman isn't supernatural, that's why he's the best.)

So secular morality has nothing to do with feelings. I gave you evidence showing that the new measure of morality is feelings.

I told you I won't discuss it with you until you've made a visible effort to understand it.

 

[RDKirk]

You have yet to state why any particular form of non-Christian religion is more problematic than any other. Why concern yourself with "paganism" and not Hinduism for example?

I think the reason there is because it appears to be losing ground that had been presumed secured.