The fascinating reformed theology paradox of Hebrew 6:4-6

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

The letter is addressed to believers in Christ, yet the problem is you can always find make believers mixed in with the group. Just because a letter is addressed to believers does not mean that everyone in a group of professing believers is a genuine believer. If you visited a new church on Sunday morning (particularly a very large church) and the Pastor of that church addressed the congregation with, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ" would you automatically assume that EVERYONE attending church that morning MUST be a genuine believer?

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed together throughout various churches. The writer of Hebrews is addressing groups of people who all "profess" to be Christians without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart.

Elsewhere in the book of Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in THOSE who heard it.

For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.


These fallen angels have made their choice and unbelievers have made their choice. Genuine believers are sealed until/for the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)


1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

*Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In vs. 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother.

*Notice that walks in darkness, hates his brother is descriptive of children of the devil.


IF is conditional and is also a confirmation.


That's false and culminates in "type 2 works salvation." Once again, continuing is proof of genuine conversion. Genuine believers believe to the saving of the soul and do not draw back to perdition. (Hebrews 10:39) Make believers come short of the grace of God. (NASB) The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. (Hebrews 12:15)

I have noticed there are different flavors of works-based salvation. You mentioned "Type 2 works salvation". Is there a list of different flavors you are referencing?

 

[PrincetonGuy]

So, you didn't answer the question. If a person breaks the condition and loses his salvation, can he get it back?

We have probably all seen it if we've been around long enough. But everyone I have seen it happen to could easily fall into the "never saved" or "saved but burned out on legalism" categories.

Satan allowed the doctrine of conditional salvation stand unopposed for 1500 years? Satan raised up millions of men to oppose it? Satan fooled people into believing the Bible couldn't be understood until he raised up Calvin to explain it?

This is the devil saying this? Didn't he know that the Bible wasn't widely available to the masses for maybe 1400 of those 1500 years?

So, what inspired that tirate? Do you think Calvin started the concept of eternal security? I certainly don't.

We have massive amounts of data showing us very clearly and in great detail what pre-reformation Christians believed going back to the early Ante-Nice Church Fathers. That data includes massive amounts of data showing us that very many of them taught conditional security and never in a defensive manner because the opposing view was unknown to them and did not become known until the early days of the Protestant Reformation.

Please learn how to spell the word ‘tirade’ and learn what it means.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

That's a good question. You're talking about Hebrews 6:4-6, right?

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. (Heb 6:4–6)​

I'm sure if I studied it and submitted to the guidance of the Holy Spirit that I could give you a solid answer. But in the meantime, I am one hundred percent confident that it is not talking about the possibility that what I have with Christ may be perishable.

If you see eternal life as perishable, please answer a question I have asked several times on this forum but have not received any answers.

Hypothetically, if a person gains eternal life then loses it, is there any way he can he get it back again?

The answer in the two passages from Hebrews that are favord by those who believe salvation is perihable seems to be "no". Here, it says, "it is impossible... to renew them again to repentance", and in Hebrews 10:26 it says of them, "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins".

I'd like an answer from anyone who does not believe in eternal security.

Hebrews 6:4. For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt.
7. Ground that drinks up the rain falling on it repeatedly, and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.
8. But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is worthless and on the verge of being cursed; its end is to be burned over.
9. Even though we speak in this way, beloved, we are confident of better things in your case, things that belong to salvation. (NRSV, 1989)

A fundamental Christian concept is that of being “in Christ”—a concept that is referenced by name 91 times in the New Testament. All genuine believers are “in Christ” and are partakers of His life—a life that is eternal. However, when a genuine believer becomes fully apostate, he is severed from Christ and His eternal life.

From the very earliest days of Christianity, we find Christians asking if an apostate can be restored to the body of Christ. The Bible does not explicitly answer that question and hence many answers have been put forth. The Bible says “it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away. . . .” but it does not say for whom it is impossible to perform the restoration.


I own and consulted these exegetical commentaries on the Greek text of Hebrews:

Allen, David L. - New American Commentary 671 pages, 2010
Bruce, Alexander B 460 pages, 1899
Bruce, F. F. - N.I.C. lxiv, 447 pages, 1964
Bruce, F. F. - N.I.C., Revised xxii, 426 pages, 1990
Buchanan, George Wesley - A.B. xxx, 282, 1972
Cockerill, Gareth - N.I.C.N.T. xlix, 742 pages, 2012
Delitzsch, Franz xii, vii, 893 pages, 1871
Ellingworth, Paul - N.I.G.T.C. xcviii, 764 pages, 1993
Heen, Erick M., Philip D. W. Krey, etc., Editors A.C.C.S. xxvi, 292 pages, 2005
Hughes, Philip xv, 623 pages, 1977
Johnson, Luke Timothy - N.T.L. xxviii, 402 pages, 2006
Kleinig, John W. - C.C. 656 pages, 2017
Koester, Craig - A.B. 640 pages, 2001
Lane, William L. - W.B.C. clvii, xlvi, 617 pages in two volumes, 1991, 2000
Lunemann, Gottlieb - Meyer 427 pages, 1884 (English)
Milligan, R. - N.T.C. 396 pages, 1879
Moffatt, James - I.C.C. lxxvi, 264 pages, 1924
Montefiore, Hugh - H.N.T.C. ix, 272 pages, 1964
Owen, John - Goold edition xii, 3,964 pages, 1855
Robinson, Theodore H. - M.N.T.C. xx, 206 pages, 1933
Westcott, Brooke Foss lxxxiv, 504 pages, 1892

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Hebrews 3:8-10 says, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers.

Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of UNBELIEF. That is the heart of the issue.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Did you see that? DID NOT BELIEVE.

In Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence firm to the end.

*Notice that the wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end. It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end.

What about the faltering Hebrews who end up departing from God after beginning with some level of confidence and profession of loyalty, but then later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

All good here except one fine tuning... Hebrews 3:14's "we have become" is not past tense, but perfect tense, meaning past action with a resultant state of being with the emphasis on the current state of being.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

We have massive amounts of data showing us very clearly and in great detail what pre-reformation Christians believed going back to the early Ante-Nice Church Fathers. That data includes massive amounts of data showing us that very many of them taught conditional security and never in a defensive manner because the opposing view was unknown to them and did not become known until the early days of the Protestant Reformation.

Please learn how to spell the word ‘tirade’ and learn what it means.

oh brother.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

A fundamental Christian concept is that of being “in Christ”—a concept that is referenced by name 91 times in the New Testament. All genuine believers are “in Christ” and are partakers of His life—a life that is eternal.

Yes, they have His life, His eternal life (1 John 5:11-12), and having been joined to the Lord they are one spirit with Him (1 Corinthians 6:17).

However, when a genuine believer becomes fully apostate, he is severed from Christ and His eternal life.

Now you're bringing in an extra-biblical term, "apostate". Cambridge dictionary defines it as "someone who has given up their religion or left a political party". Someone could give up Christianity without being a Christian. They would fit the definition of "apostate". But you are referencing a person who was once joind to the Lord, was one spirit with Him, and possessed His eternal life then later decided to not trust Christ, was severed from the Lord and lost his oneness with Him and His eternal life, right? This brings up a couple of questions.

First, what verses make it clear the steps a saved person must take to become an apostate?
Second, Is apostasy the only condition that leads to loss of salvation? If not, what are the other conditions?

From the very earliest days of Christianity, we find Christians asking if an apostate can be restored to the body of Christ. The Bible does not explicitly answer that question and hence many answers have been put forth. The Bible says “it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away. . . .” but it does not say for whom it is impossible to perform the restoration.

I would think that if the ancient Christians you are referencing believed as you do that apostates (and perhaps other categories of Christians) lose their salvation, they would have reason to wonder if those formerly saved and now lost people could be saved again. And there is a reasonable explanation as to why after more than 2000 years of Bible study they are yet to find the answer. Perhaps it's not in there because their premise is wrong.

I own and consulted these exegetical commentaries on the Greek text of Hebrews:

Allen, David L. - New American Commentary 671 pages, 2010
Bruce, Alexander B 460 pages, 1899
Bruce, F. F. - N.I.C. lxiv, 447 pages, 1964
Bruce, F. F. - N.I.C., Revised xxii, 426 pages, 1990
Buchanan, George Wesley - A.B. xxx, 282, 1972
Cockerill, Gareth - N.I.C.N.T. xlix, 742 pages, 2012
Delitzsch, Franz xii, vii, 893 pages, 1871
Ellingworth, Paul - N.I.G.T.C. xcviii, 764 pages, 1993
Heen, Erick M., Philip D. W. Krey, etc., Editors A.C.C.S. xxvi, 292 pages, 2005
Hughes, Philip xv, 623 pages, 1977
Johnson, Luke Timothy - N.T.L. xxviii, 402 pages, 2006
Kleinig, John W. - C.C. 656 pages, 2017
Koester, Craig - A.B. 640 pages, 2001
Lane, William L. - W.B.C. clvii, xlvi, 617 pages in two volumes, 1991, 2000
Lunemann, Gottlieb - Meyer 427 pages, 1884 (English)
Milligan, R. - N.T.C. 396 pages, 1879
Moffatt, James - I.C.C. lxxvi, 264 pages, 1924
Montefiore, Hugh - H.N.T.C. ix, 272 pages, 1964
Owen, John - Goold edition xii, 3,964 pages, 1855
Robinson, Theodore H. - M.N.T.C. xx, 206 pages, 1933
Westcott, Brooke Foss lxxxiv, 504 pages, 1892

Hopefully they are electronic.

 

[Danthemailman]

All good here except one fine tuning... Hebrews 3:14's "we have become" is not past tense, but perfect tense, meaning past action with a resultant state of being with the emphasis on the current state of being.

Past tense with ongoing present results.

 

[Danthemailman]

I have noticed there are different flavors of works-based salvation. You mentioned "Type 2 works salvation". Is there a list of different flavors you are referencing?

There are different flavors which culminate in works-based salvation. Some may believe that we are "initially" saved by faith and not by works, but then after that, salvation is ultimately "maintained" by works. Others believe we are saved by faith and works from beginning to end, yet still others believe that salvation is by "grace plus law, faith plus works."

 

[LoveofTruth]

The letter is addressed to believers in Christ, yet the problem is you can always find make believers mixed in with the group. Just because a letter is addressed to believers does not mean that everyone in a group of professing believers is a genuine believer. If you visited a new church on Sunday morning (particularly a very large church) and the Pastor of that church addressed the congregation with, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ" would you automatically assume that EVERYONE attending church that morning MUST be a genuine believer?

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed together throughout various churches. The writer of Hebrews is addressing groups of people who all "profess" to be Christians without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart.

Elsewhere in the book of Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in THOSE who heard it.

For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.


These fallen angels have made their choice and unbelievers have made their choice. Genuine believers are sealed until/for the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)


1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

*Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In vs. 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother.

*Notice that walks in darkness, hates his brother is descriptive of children of the devil.


IF is conditional and is also a confirmation.


That's false and culminates in "type 2 works salvation." Once again, continuing is proof of genuine conversion. Genuine believers believe to the saving of the soul and do not draw back to perdition. (Hebrews 10:39) Make believers come short of the grace of God. (NASB) The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God. (Hebrews 12:15)

When we read

Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;” (KJV)
The “we” includes the writer of the letter as well a saved man. Yet the warnings are fir all saved men including himself.

 

[LoveofTruth]

There are different flavors which culminate in works-based salvation. Some may believe that we are "initially" saved by faith and not by works, but then after that, salvation is ultimately "maintained" by works. Others believe we are saved by faith and works from beginning to end, yet still others believe that salvation is by "grace plus law, faith plus works."

Is is needful to have God working in believers for salvation?

Yes.

We do not work for salvation in our flesh we repent and believe God’s righteousness revealed in the gospel. Then Christ dwells in our heart by faith and God now works in us to will and to do. These works of God that happen through our faith are always needful.

Do you agree that we are saved by works, but these works are of God through faith .

Hebrews 13: 20. Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21. Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

Philippians 2: 12. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”

1 Thessalonians 1: 3. Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;”

 

[Danthemailman]

Is is needful to have God working in believers for salvation?

Yes.

We do not work for salvation in our flesh we repent and believe God’s righteousness revealed in the gospel. Then Christ dwells in our heart by faith and God now works in us to will and to do. These works of God that happen through our faith are always needful.

Do you agree that we are saved by works, but these works are of God through faith .

Hebrews 13: 20. Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21. Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

Philippians 2: 12. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”

1 Thessalonians 1: 3. Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;”

I believe that we are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Also see (Romans 4:5-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

There is a difference between doing God's will in order to become saved: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND

Doing God's will after we have been saved: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

Notice in Philippians 2:12 that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ. In verse 13, Paul goes on to say, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

In regard to 1 Thessalonians 1:3, notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work "followed" as a result or consequence "of" their faith. So, work "of" faith does not equate to work "is" faith. Faith is faith and works are works and we are saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

 

[BNR32FAN]

So, what does it mean that "it is impossible to renew them again to repentance"? If it is possible to turn someone who strays from the truth back to the truth and save his soul from death, then must we conclude Hebrews 6:4-6 is not talking about the same thing?

And what does it mean that "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins"? How does the one who lost his salvation in James 5:19-20 get it back without Jesus' sacrifice covering his sins?

Well my personal position on Hebrews 6 is that the author is saying that if someone who has received the Holy Spirit and the knowledge that comes from Him and recognized God’s glory and then chooses to turn away there is no evidence we can produce that is going to persuade such a person to repent because they’ve already witnessed the evidence directly from God. They already know what it is to be a Christian so we won’t be able to reveal anything that they don’t already know. That’s the best interpretation that I can think of.

As far as Hebrews 10:26 I believe the author is saying that for those who continue to sin willfully there are no more animal sacrifices that will atone for their sin and only those who abide in Christ can be forgiven. So they can’t turn away from Christ and go back to animal sacrifices for atonement, the only way they can receive atonement is by abiding in Christ.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I believe that we are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Also see (Romans 4:5-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

There is a difference between doing God's will in order to become saved: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND

Doing God's will after we have been saved: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

Notice in Philippians 2:12 that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ. In verse 13, Paul goes on to say, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

In regard to 1 Thessalonians 1:3, notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work "followed" as a result or consequence "of" their faith. So, work "of" faith does not equate to work "is" faith. Faith is faith and works are works and we are saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Yes, we are not saved by works of our own but we are saved by God’s works. His work on the cross and his work in us as we abide in him by faith.
NThe fruit of the tree is evidence that we are in God we are saved as we continue in faith and grace.

The works show forth our faith . That God is working in us.

But if a person says for example that they have faith but are not born again with the Soirit of God in them then they are not saved.

But as far as Gid working in us. This work is always needed. We must continue in the faith and continue in the grace, continue in Gods work for us and in us.

Yes, we must be saved by grace through faith but when we are saved we are being saved and shall be saved as we abide in him and continue in the faith. Christ dwells in our heart and works in us through faith.

The old man can do nothing but I can DO all things through Christ which strengthens me.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I believe that we are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Also see (Romans 4:5-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

There is a difference between doing God's will in order to become saved: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

AND

Doing God's will after we have been saved: 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

Notice in Philippians 2:12 that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ. In verse 13, Paul goes on to say, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

In regard to 1 Thessalonians 1:3, notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work "followed" as a result or consequence "of" their faith. So, work "of" faith does not equate to work "is" faith. Faith is faith and works are works and we are saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

The work of faith is connected to this verse,

Galatians 5: 6. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

If we say we have faith but it dies not work this way, are we in that saving faith?

 

[Danthemailman]

Yes, we are not saved by works of our own but we are saved by God’s works. His work on the cross and his work in us as we abide in him by faith.
NThe fruit of the tree is evidence that we are in God we are saved as we continue in faith and grace.

The works show forth our faith . That God is working in us.

But if a person says for example that they have faith but are not born again with the Soirit of God in them then they are not saved.

But as far as Gid working in us. This work is always needed. We must continue in the faith and continue in the grace, continue in Gods work for us and in us.

Yes, we must be saved by grace through faith but when we are saved we are being saved and shall be saved as we abide in him and continue in the faith. Christ dwells in our heart and works in us through faith.

The old man can do nothing but I can DO all things through Christ which strengthens me.

That still equates to salvation by faith AND works. Salvation by works at the back door.

 

[Danthemailman]

The work of faith is connected to this verse,

Galatians 5: 6. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

If we say we have faith but it dies not work this way, are we in that saving faith?

Faith works through love and the love of God has been poured out in the hearts of believers by the Holy Spirit who was given to them. (Romans 5:5)

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Well my personal position on Hebrews 6 is that the author is saying that if someone who has received the Holy Spirit and the knowledge that comes from Him and recognized God’s glory and then chooses to turn away there is no evidence we can produce that is going to persuade such a person to repent because they’ve already witnessed the evidence directly from God. They already know what it is to be a Christian so we won’t be able to reveal anything that they don’t already know. That’s the best interpretation that I can think of.

I have been toying with this angle for a few days. It would go well with the "if God permits" comment which preceeds it, meaning that going on to bigger and better things may not be profitable. It would explain that "impossible" means "impossible for us (or another people)" not "impossible for God". It would make "repentance" mean repentance and not salvation. And it would support the "near to being cursed" comment which reserves curses only for the lost.

As far as Hebrews 10:26 I believe the author is saying that for those who continue to sin willfully there are no more animal sacrifices that will atone for their sin and only those who abide in Christ can be forgiven. So they can’t turn away from Christ and go back to animal sacrifices for atonement, the only way they can receive atonement is by abiding in Christ.

I have been cogitating on this one for a long time. It it is clearly preceeded by and introduced by two sentences which summarize the concepts explored in detail in the preceeding chapters of Hebrews:

19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. (Heb 10:19–23)​

And it is followed by this admonition:

35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:​

​

37 “For yet a little while,​

And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.​

38 Now the just shall live by faith;​

But if anyone draws back,​

My soul has no pleasure in him.”​

​

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. (Heb 10:35–39)​

My conlusion is that "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth" (Heb 10:26) is a reference to people (especially Hebrews) who have been confronted with the truths that Jesus is the promised Savior who offered Himself without spot to God, who washes clean our consciences, who tore down the veil which seperated us form God, and who paved the way for us to draw near to God. But having been confronted with these truths, though they may have toyed with them, they never fully accepted that Jesus did these things for them personally. They never trusted Him, they never received His forgiveness, and they never received Him into their hearts. They were confronted with the truth, but they continued to "miss the mark" through willfully not trusting in Him, though He is the most trustworthy person in the universe.

Verse 39 contrasts those who draw back to perdition with those who believe to the saving of their souls. It is interesting that the Greek word, ὑποστολή, translated "draw back" is a rare word in Kione Greek, only found in Hebrews 10:39. Per TDNT, "This rare word has such senses as 'abstinence,' 'reserve,' or 'secrecy.'" [Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume]

Those of us who rest our full weight on Christ are not abstinent, reserved, or secretive in our trust in Christ.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Faith works through love and the love of God has been poured out in the hearts of believers by the Holy Spirit who was given to them. (Romans 5:5)

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

And true saving grace through faith has Christ dwelling in us and we are as new creation and can do all things as God works in us.

So these works are needful always. If the body without the spirit is dead so a man who claims faith but does not have the Spirit of God working in him is dead.

If we continue in the grace and the faith and abide in him he is always working in us to w I’ll and to do. The struggle is to continue in faith and not to be drawn to the flesh but rather we need to yield to the Spirit. This is how we are fellow labourers with Gid in spirit. Through him and by him we do all in Christ.

So a man is saved by works. But not the works of the flesh or the law but the work of Gods on the cross for him without him and Gods work in his heart by faith and ongoing work.

So the man who says he had a onc time faith and now does nothing and does not claim to need God working in him or that he needs ti abide(remain) in him through continual day by day faith is deceived.

If a man has salvation and continues in that faith walking with God he will evidence that by the wirk of Gid manifest in his life. He dies daily so that them life of Christ is made manifest in his mortal body

2 Corinthians 4: 10. Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 11. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.”

And they must be overcomers through that faith

1 John 5: 4. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?”

 

[LoveofTruth]

That still equates to salvation by faith AND works. Salvation by works at the back door.

The works are God’s work without us on the cross and in us as we are crucified daily with him and as we are risen with him to the newness of life,

But the works of the flesh and the law have no place here. Not by works which we (the old man) have done. We cannot put God in our debt or earn our way:

All those who go back under the law for example and try to push Sabbaths or tithing or circumcision, or many aspects of the law even the Ten Commandments as trying to establish thier own righteousness by many things have error.

Even sone today who add these things and water baptism for salvation or the Lords supper or other things are in error.

 

[LoveofTruth]

That still equates to salvation by faith AND works. Salvation by works at the back door.

Hebrews 13,20,21 works are always needed. If we walk in the light as he is in the light we walk in that salvation by grace through faith.