Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

[olgamc]

Based on many of these arguments, I've come to the conclusion that evolution and "science" has become a 21st century god or idol. People claiming to be Christians have, for whatever reason, totally threw out the scriptures and replaced it with "science". None of these arguments incorporate any scriptures or doctrine.

Sadly, many Christians seem to have bought into this false god simply because of unbelievers with fancy degrees, a smooth talking presentation, and the force of the government (politics and money). Many have replaced the Word of God with Darwin's Theory of Evolution and are spending more time trying to prove evolution instead of trying to understand God and His Word.

Evolution is no more right than Global Warming.

2 Peter 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

Well, the fact that my conversation partner is willing to give up his being made in God’s image and call himself an animal, just to prove that he evolved - that says something doesn’t it.

 

[olgamc]

Based on many of these arguments, I've come to the conclusion that evolution and "science" has become a 21st century god or idol. People claiming to be Christians have, for whatever reason, totally threw out the scriptures and replaced it with "science". None of these arguments incorporate any scriptures or doctrine.

Sadly, many Christians seem to have bought into this false god simply because of unbelievers with fancy degrees, a smooth talking presentation, and the force of the government (politics and money). Many have replaced the Word of God with Darwin's Theory of Evolution and are spending more time trying to prove evolution instead of trying to understand God and His Word.

Evolution is no more right than Global Warming.

2 Peter 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

I came here to understand why people think what they think. Here’s what I learned. Very few people understand that Bible and science complement each other. The rest put themselves in the position of having to either choose or compromise. Atheists choose science. Young earth choose the Bible. The rest compromise the Bible for the sake of science. Honestly, I would rather be in the young earth camp (good for them!) than in that latter camp. It’s no wonder young earthers call theistic evolutionists idol worshippers.

 

[Job 33:6]

Yes, you did. This is you saying it:

And since you are just an animal, you can’t reason or speak or conceptualize or think abstractly. So even if I wanted to, I couldn’t discuss your origin with you.

Your response just seems dishonest. You didn't even think of the possibility to be both animal and more than animal?

Genesis describes ancient near east cosmology. It's not science.

 

[olgamc]

Your response just seems dishonest. You didn't even think of the possibility to be both animal and more than animal?

Of course I did. Hence the conversation about a blurry line vs a precise line, and a definition of a person I gave in my argument. I changed it, by the way, to clear up some misunderstandings that came from the previous wording. It now says this: "people" - a species of animals characterized by having a soul and a brain advanced enough to grasp spiritual concepts.

So you can be an animal or an animal+. For just animals the line is blurry. Evolution theory fits. For animals+ (people) the line is precise. Evolution theory does not fit. You chose to be an animal and apply evolution to yourself instead of believing what the Bible tells you about who you are. Think about that for a bit before you say that my response is dishonest.

Genesis describes ancient near east cosmology. It's not science.

Who said Genesis is science?

 

[sfs]

"That is your opinion."

No, it's not my opinion. It's the Apostle Peter's opinion which you completely ignored.

The Apostle Peter (in the unlikely event he wrote the epistle credited to him) said nothing at all about inerrant or infallible -- that's something you invented and attributed to him. And whether theopnuestos meant 'God-breathed' at the time

The Bible itself claims to be perfect. “And the words of the Lord are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times” (Psalm 12:6). “The law of the Lord is perfect” (Psalm 19:7). “Every word of God is pure” (Proverbs 30:5 KJV). These claims of purity and perfection are absolute statements.

What you completely fail to understand is that these are not claims about the Bible. The Bible didn't exist when they were made.

If you don't want a Protestant source then consider a Catholic source:

The inspired books teach the truth. “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures” (CCC 107, quoting the Vatican II document Dei Verbum 11).

I suggest you look a little closer to find out how this kind of theoretical statement plays out in Roman Catholic scholarship. Go read Raymond Brown's The Birth of the Messiah. Brown was a priest, his works were approved by the Catholic hierarchy, and he was quite comfortable with much of the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke not being historically true.

Once again, though, this is all a distraction. Your claim was not that the Bible was inerrant, but that believing the Bible to be inerrant was a requirement for salvation. Can you supply any support for that claim? Any statement of faith from any denomination, from any creed, from any recognized theologian in any Christian tradition?

 

[olgamc]

The Apostle Peter (in the unlikely event he wrote the epistle credited to him) said nothing at all about inerrant or infallible -- that's something you invented and attributed to him. And whether theopnuestos meant 'God-breathed' at the time

What you completely fail to understand is that these are not claims about the Bible. The Bible didn't exist when they were made.

I suggest you look a little closer to find out how this kind of theoretical statement plays out in Roman Catholic scholarship. Go read Raymond Brown's The Birth of the Messiah. Brown was a priest, his works were approved by the Catholic hierarchy, and he was quite comfortable with much of the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke not being historically true.

Once again, though, this is all a distraction. Your claim was not that the Bible was inerrant, but that believing the Bible to be inerrant was a requirement for salvation. Can you supply any support for that claim? Any statement of faith from any denomination, from any creed, from any recognized theologian in any Christian tradition?

Hypothetically, if you believe that the Bible is errant, and if salvation plan is outlined in the Bible, how can you believe and be saved? How do you decide what to believe exactly?

 

[HarleyER]

The Apostle Peter (in the unlikely event he wrote the epistle credited to him) said nothing at all about inerrant or infallible -- that's something you invented and attributed to him. And whether theopnuestos meant 'God-breathed' at the time

What you completely fail to understand is that these are not claims about the Bible. The Bible didn't exist when they were made.

I suggest you look a little closer to find out how this kind of theoretical statement plays out in Roman Catholic scholarship. Go read Raymond Brown's The Birth of the Messiah. Brown was a priest, his works were approved by the Catholic hierarchy, and he was quite comfortable with much of the birth narratives in Matthew and Luke not being historically true.

Once again, though, this is all a distraction. Your claim was not that the Bible was inerrant, but that believing the Bible to be inerrant was a requirement for salvation. Can you supply any support for that claim? Any statement of faith from any denomination, from any creed, from any recognized theologian in any Christian tradition?

I don't need to read Roman Catholic scholarship. I'm quite familar with their doctrine.

My claim is not "believing the Bible to be inerrant was a requirement for salvation". My claim is that the Bible is inerrant on all things. While there are some transposing errors with numbers and a few other instances, there is nothing that is erroneous relating to any doctrine.

Can I support my claim? I have given you a number of scriptures, sites to review, as well as Church dogma from our Catholic friends. Here is the part of the Westminster Confession of Faith:

1. Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence, do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable;a yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of his will, which is necessary unto salvation;b therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his Church;c and afterwards, for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing;d which maketh the holy Scripture to be most necessary;e those former ways of God’s revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.f​

​

a. Psa 19:1-3; Rom 1:19-20; 1:32 with 2:1; 2:14-15. • b. 1 Cor 1:21; 2:13-14. • c. Heb 1:1. • d. Prov 22:19-21; Isa 8:19-20; Mat 4:4, 7, 10; Luke 1:3-4; Rom 15:4. • e. 2 Tim 3:15; 2 Pet 1:19. • f. Heb 1:1-2.​

Chapter 1: Of the Holy Scripture | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind

The London Baptist Confession of Faith is similar. (Of the Holy Scriptures — The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith)

So I would ask you,

1) what are the errors in the Scriptures, since you seem to believe the Bible contains errors?​

2) How did you determine those errors?​

3) And, what church are you attending that publish any statement of faith from any denomination, from any creed, from any recognized theologian in any Christian tradition that shows the Bible to be in error?​

 

[Job 33:6]

Of course I did. Hence the conversation about a blurry line vs a precise line, and a definition of a person I gave in my argument. I changed it, by the way, to clear up some misunderstandings that came from the previous wording. It now says this: "people" - a species of animals characterized by having a soul and a brain advanced enough to grasp spiritual concepts.

So you can be an animal or an animal+. For just animals the line is blurry. Evolution theory fits. For animals+ (people) the line is precise. Evolution theory does not fit. You chose to be an animal and apply evolution to yourself instead of believing what the Bible tells you about who you are. Think about that for a bit before you say that my response is dishonest.

Ok. Well, good luck with that. We've talked for like 40 pages now and just as from page 1, I'd say that your ideas don't make any sense.

The Bible doesn't speak to concepts of science. It describes an ancient near east cosmology. It's pre scientific. And the theory of evolution doesn't speak to concepts of the supernatural, or of souls or anything like that. So, it's a problem that Christians try to force the two to align and end up rejecting one or the other when they don't align.

 

[Diamond72]

Would you like me to name a couple dozen other PhDs that verify the same thing?

They all follow the rules of Bible interpretation known as Hermeneutics. First we look at who the Bible was first written for, then we look at how the Bible applies to us today.

Overall, the authors of the Bible wrote with the understanding that their words would be read, studied, and passed down through generations as sacred scripture. Their writings continue to shape religious beliefs, practices, and interpretations across diverse cultural and historical contexts.

 

[olgamc]

Ok. Well, good luck with that. We've talked for like 40 pages now and just as from page 1, I'd say that your ideas don't make any sense.

What did I tell you like 30 pages ago? If you missed the point of the cylinder, you will not understand anything I have to say.

The Bible doesn't speak to concepts of science. It describes an ancient near east cosmology. It's pre scientific. And the theory of evolution doesn't speak to concepts of the supernatural, or of souls or anything like that. So, it's a problem that Christians try to force the two to align and end up rejecting one or the other when they don't align.

Exactly. That's exactly what you have done. Rejected the Bible. Took the Word of God and called it near east cosmology. Blinded yourself to what it says about your original nature, the fall, and the restoration. Rejected your own divine making in God's image and called yourself an animal - for what? To prove that dust you are and to dust you will return? Science isn't going to save you.

Job33:6, read the Bible like a child. Not like an ancient near east cosmologist and not like a paleontologist. Read it like you've never read it before. Read it like a child and simply allow it to speak to you.

John 1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Genesis 1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.

John 1 - The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Genesis 1 - 26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

Genesis 2 - 7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. 18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

Genesis 1 - 27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Romans 12 - 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—21 just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Genesis 3 - 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. 8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

1 Corinthians 15 - 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man. 50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

John 3 - 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Don't you see? We are not just mere animals. We were not created in the same way as all other animals. We were created differently, special, set apart, holy, in the Image of God or bearing the image of the heavenly man, for a loving relationship with Him. We failed, we rejected God, we chose knowledge instead. We lost our special standing and our immortality. Then God set forward a plan to restore us back to the way He created us to begin with - at the cost of His Own Life! And you are going to throw all that away and say that you are nothing but flesh and blood, created not in God's image for a holy relationship, but evolved from a single cell organism for the purpose of physical survival? Come on man, look into your heart - you know better than this.

 

[Job 33:6]

What did I tell you like 30 pages ago? If you missed the point of the cylinder, you will not understand anything I have to say.

Exactly. That's exactly what you have done. Rejected the Bible. Took the Word of God and called it near east cosmology. Blinded yourself to what it says about your original nature, the fall, and the restoration. Rejected your own divine making in God's image and called yourself an animal - for what? To prove that dust you are and to dust you will return? Science isn't going to save you.

Job33:6, read the Bible like a child. Not like an ancient near east cosmologist and not like a paleontologist. Read it like you've never read it before. Read it like a child and simply allow it to speak to you.

John 1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Genesis 1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.

John 1 - The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Genesis 1 - 26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

Genesis 2 - 7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. 18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

Genesis 1 - 27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Romans 12 - 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—21 just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Genesis 3 - 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. 8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

1 Corinthians 15 - 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man. 50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

John 3 - 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Don't you see? We are not just mere animals. We were not created in the same way as all other animals. We were created differently, special, set apart, holy, in the Image of God or bearing the image of the heavenly man, for a loving relationship with Him. We failed, we rejected God, we chose knowledge instead. We lost our special standing and our immortality. Then God set forward a plan to restore us back to the way He created us to begin with - at the cost of His Own Life! And you are going to throw all that away and say that you are nothing but flesh and blood, created not in God's image for a holy relationship, but evolved from a single cell organism for the purpose of physical survival? Come on man, look into your heart - you know better than this.

Read the Bible, like a child. Ok.

The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.
Amos‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭NASB

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

Ok so God walks on a solid dome-like vault in the sky. Got it.

Hey wait a second, that's exactly what every other ancient near east civilization around Israel believed!

What a strange coincidence.

And I'm happy to say that we are created specially by God. But that's not a scientific statement. In science, we are born out of the womb, covered in mucus, screaming, umbilical cord still attached, lungs not yet developed, just like mammals are. Biologically, we are members of the animal kingdom. And quite frankly, people should be proud of that lineage, because it's conquered a billion+ years of evolution.

Supernaturally, we are more. But that has nothing to do with evolution. Evolution doesn't relate to the supernatural.

 

[olgamc]

Read the Bible, like a child. Ok.

The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.
Amos‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭NASB

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

Ok so God walks on a solid dome-like vault in the sky. Got it.

Hey wait a second, that's exactly what every other ancient near east civilization around Israel believed!

What a strange coincidence.

And I'm happy to say that we are created specially by God. But that's not a scientific statement. In science, we are born out of the womb, covered in mucus, screaming, umbilical cord still attached, lungs not yet developed, just like mammals are. Biologically, we are members of the animal kingdom. And quite frankly, people should be proud of that lineage, because it's conquered a billion+ years of evolution.

Supernaturally, we are more. But that has nothing to do with evolution. Evolution doesn't relate to the supernatural.

You missed the point. Again!!!

And yes, God does dwell in a place that is separate from where humans live. Didn’t you know that? You find it strange that the ancients knew that too? One day you will actually get there too.

”And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long. The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 144 cubits thick. The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass.“
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21‬:‭10‬-‭21‬ ‭NIV‬‬

 

[Diamond72]

My claim is that the Bible is inerrant on all things.

We still have translation and interpretation and God is the one that confused language at Babylon so that we have a translation issue to begin with. We are told that we can trust the KJV but sometimes I wonder. Even if this version is trustworthy to be inerrant that still does not solve the issue of interpretation and understanding what we are reading. Of course we have to have the Holy Spirit of God to do this. Then we have to deal with people that do not have the Holy Spirit and they do not have a clue as to what that is all about. Even most Christians lack understanding in what it means to have the Mind of Christ. Even they believe we can not know the divine thoughts of God.

If Jesus is coming for a Bride without spot, blemish or wrinkle she must be hiding because I do not see her anywhere. Although the only place I should be looking is inside of myself. Do you see the Bride of Christ? Is she ready for His return. Is He coming for her soon?

 

[Diamond72]

Don't you see? We are not just mere animals. We were not created in the same way as all other animals. We were created differently, special, set apart, holy, in the Image of God or bearing the image of the heavenly man, for a loving relationship with Him

You are really missing the boat on this one. Paul tells us in Romans 8:20 "…19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.…"

All of creation is going to redeemed and restored to God's plans and purpose. Yes you understand that it means to be Children of God but you do not understand how we are a part of the Creation that God is restoring to HIs plan and purpose that He declares from the beginning. He is watching over His Word to Perform what He said He is going to do.

Musk wants to populate Mars. Good luck with that one because there is nothing there to support life as we know it.

 

[Job 33:6]

You missed the point. Again!!!

And yes, God does dwell in a place that is separate from where humans live. Didn’t you know that? You find it strange that the ancients knew that too? One day you will actually get there too.

”And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long. The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 144 cubits thick. The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, the fifth onyx, the sixth ruby, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth turquoise, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass.“
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21‬:‭10‬-‭21‬ ‭NIV‬‬

I think you missed the point that it doesn't make any sense to use a pre-scientific context to develop your understanding of 21st century science.

 

[Job 33:6]

I think you missed the point that it doesn't make any sense to use a pre-scientific context to develop your understanding of 21st century science.

 

[HarleyER]

We still have translation and interpretation and God is the one that confused language at Babylon so that we have a translation issue to begin with. We are told that we can trust the KJV but sometimes I wonder. Even if this version is trustworthy to be inerrant that still does not solve the issue of interpretation and understanding what we are reading. Of course we have to have the Holy Spirit of God to do this. Then we have to deal with people that do not have the Holy Spirit and they do not have a clue as to what that is all about. Even most Christians lack understanding in what it means to have the Mind of Christ. Even they believe we can not know the divine thoughts of God.

If Jesus is coming for a Bride without spot, blemish or wrinkle she must be hiding because I do not see her anywhere. Although the only place I should be looking is inside of myself. Do you see the Bride of Christ? Is she ready for His return. Is He coming for her soon?

At no time in history have so many resources been available. We have lots of translations today, some far better than others. One can call up charts to see what are the most accurate translations. One can get on line and look at the Hebrew/Greek texts themselves to see what the original words means, their tense, and how it is used throughout scripture. There are numerous commentaries freely available. And one can do a thorough study of how historical doctrines were developed, if one is serious and wants to take the time.

There is no confusion as to what the Scripture tells us. And yet there is are many who want to disregard the Scriptures as some old relic. There are those who do not take the time to study the Word of God in an honest manner. Others are more interested in preverting the gospel to justify their action or ensnare others in their ideals. Still others don't believe the Word of God as the authoritative Word from our Creator. We are warned about these false teachers by Paul, John, Peter, James, Jude and others about those who wish to distort and corrupt the Scriptures. We are to conform our lives to the Scriptures. Not bend the Scriptures to our lives.

Do I see the Bride of Christ? Yes, I see her every time I attend a Bible believing church service where the people are serious about worshipping God. I see her every time I witness a Baptism or take communion. I see her when I watch services on the Internet and people are glorifying God. The Bride is out there.

 

[olgamc]

You are really missing the boat on this one. Paul tells us in Romans 8:20 "…19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.…"

All of creation is going to redeemed and restored to God's plans and purpose. Yes you understand that it means to be Children of God but you do not understand how we are a part of the Creation that God is restoring to HIs plan and purpose that He declares from the beginning. He is watching over His Word to Perform what He said He is going to do.

Musk wants to populate Mars. Good luck with that one because there is nothing there to support life as we know it.

What boat did I miss?

 

[olgamc]

I think you missed the point that it doesn't make any sense to use a pre-scientific context to develop your understanding of 21st century science.

That’s ok, you can have an opinion.

Does it make sense to use 21st century science and near east cosmology to develop your understanding of the Bible? If there is a conflict, who wins - myth and science or the Word of God?

 

[Diamond72]

If there is a conflict, who wins - myth and science or the Word of God?

This is a two way street. The Bible confirms science and science confirms the Bible. Of course the Bible sets the standard. The Bible has been around a lot longer than science as we know it today. Science does go back before the written Bible but not before the oral tradition. Because that is said to go all the way back to Adam. We do not read, study or learn about anyone before Adam. Other than a few dead corpses here and there and the story that they have to tell.