Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

[Job 33:6]

Right. So at one point in time all dogs were canis familiaris. Then something changed and we decided to start calling them canis lupus.

What changed? - our knowledge changed. We learnt something new that we didn’t know before, so we decided to re-classify. Right? Right.

Ok. When we re-classified dogs, was that retroactive? Did all dogs that have been born, let’s say, in the past 100 years, receive the same re-classification? The answer is yes.

So the same individual dog who lived 50 years ago was canis familiaris at one time. Then we learnt something new, and the very same dog became canis lupus. Same individual. 2 species.

It was never classified as two species at once, as if it were a hybrid. Dogs were always 1 species as per the naming convention.

That's just the way it is.

In the theory of evolution, animals are only ever born into existence. So if members of new species are ever to come into existence, through birth is the only way.

Therefore, mothers of one species will give birth to individuals of another.

That's really all there is to it.

Any rejection of this could only be recognized as some kind of cognitive dissonance and denialism.

 

[olgamc]

‭It was never classified as two species at once, as if it were a hybrid. Dogs were always 1 species as per the naming convention.

Did I say anything about being 2 species at once? I think what I said is that compared to the original population it is a different species. Compared to it’s immediate family it is the same species.

So all the birds continued to be the red bird species, even though they changed to yellow. Then one day we compared a yellow bird to the red bird and learnt that they can no longer reproduce - the yellow birds have become a new species. And that designation is retroactive. So our yellow bird that got rejected is the new species, as well as his immediate family.

In the theory of evolution, animals are only ever born into existence. So if members of new species are ever to come into existence, through birth is the only way.

Who said anything different?

Therefore, mothers of one species will give birth to individuals of another.

Mothers will give birth to individuals who are similar to them. We will categorize mothers and their children as the same species. Later we will rename children and their mothers.

Any rejection of this could only be recognized as some kind of cognitive dissonance and denialism.

Lol Ok man, suit yourself.

What are you trying to prove? That Adam’s mom was an animal? Ok, I told you already, feel free to call her an animal just because she wasn’t as smart or good looking as her son.

 

[Job 33:6]

Did I say anything about being 2 species at once? I think what I said is that compared to the original population it is a different species. Compared to it’s immediate family it is the same species.

So all the birds continued to be the red bird species, even though they changed to yellow. Then one day we compared a yellow bird to the red bird and learnt that they can no longer reproduce - the yellow birds have become a new species.

That's fine. I agree with the way you've laid this out.

So where are you going with this?

And that designation is retroactive. So our yellow bird that got rejected is the new species, as well as his immediate family.

Who said anything different?

Mothers will give birth to individuals who are similar to them. We will categorize mothers and their children as the same species. Later we will rename children and their mothers.

Ok, and those mothers and children were all born of mothers.

So no matter when or how we make the call, mothers give birth to new species.

Lol Ok man, suit yourself.

What are you trying to prove? That Adam’s mom was an animal? Ok, I told you already, feel free to call her an animal just because she wasn’t as smart or good looking as her son.

The point is that, no matter how you shake it, individuals of new species are born from individuals of prior old species. No matter how you decide to cut that cake. Even if we retroactively go back and change species names around.

You get an A+ for creative thinking. But it's not impossible for a mother In species A (Adams mother) to give birth to a child and species B (Adam), because being born is the only way any individual comes to be. So even if we changed species names 100 times, the individuals at the end of the day were all, always born of mothers. Every single one of them.

And so, unless we call every single animal that ever lived by the same species, and reclassified T rex as the same species as panda bears...

One way or another, you always end up in a situation of individuals being born from a different species.

 

[Job 33:6]

His Phd does not mean much because he is teaching at a freshman level of Bible School. Of course they teach that we have to look at the original audience that Moses was writing to. But to say the Bible is not written for us today means he does not understand how God can give us a Bible that is written for everyone that ever was or will ever be.

I remember when I was a child we went to see a play in NYC with Barbra Streisand called "funny girl". My dad did not want to buy tickets in advance so we ended up buying them at the time of the show. As a result we ended up in the back row of the theater. My assumption was that we would be watching her perform for the people that were close to the stage. I was amazed that she sang to everyone and her voice was powerful enough to reach the end of the audience. She sang for us as much as anyone in that theater. It is the same with the Bible. We do not look at a Bible written for Egyptians. We look at a Bible written for everyone, every man, women and child that is or ever was.

Jesus desciples were amazed at this more than anything. They did not expect that expect that everyone could receive the Holy Spirit of God. Jesus told them that He was sent for the Lost Sheep of Israel. So it was a big surprise for them that the Bible is for everyone.

Would you like me to name a couple dozen other PhDs that verify the same thing?

People always do this. They either throw the Bible under the bus and act like they know better than Moses what the Bible says, or they throw 99% of PhD scientists under the bus on evolution, or here they'll just throw even PhD Hebrew scholarly consensus under the bus as well, even of conservative PhD holding evangelical scholars.

And it's just embarrassing. People would rather believe in worship of mesopotamian sperm trees, or try to act like Moses was actually describing string theory, rather than just accepting the text as it is.

The waters above and the pillars of the earth over Sheol, and the darkness over the face of the deep etc. these are just regular everyday ancient near east concepts.

We know what Genesis is describing. No need to throw the world's experts and historical evidence under the bus in favor of sperm trees.

People have the hardest time accepting what the text plainly says, to the extent that when the Bible says that the raqia separated water from water, and gathered the waters below to form the sea, we have to kick on our imagination in string theory in order to avoid accepting that it's just talking about H2O water above as well.

The Bible really just can't say these things more clearly and plainly.

Job 37:18 is another one. The sky is described hard as cast metal.

And people have the hardest time with this. "Well the author didn't actually need to say that"
"Well that's just Jobs friend and they were just confused"
"Well God later on corrects Job with relation to His power"

And on and on and on.

So you quote Amos 9:6 or Job 22 or Psalm 19 etc.

"Oh that's just poetry"

Isaiah 40:22

"Oh when it says circle, it actually means a sphere even though it doesn't say that".

1 Samuel on pillars of the earth:
"Oh that's some kind of poetry too

Jonah doing down to sheol
"Oh that's a spirit realm, it's not actually talking about a place underwater".


People just come up with a million excuses, rather than just acknowledging that the text is describing the same thing that countless other ancient near east texts say.

The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.
Amos‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭NASB

And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Genesis 1:6

God made the dome, and separated the waters which were below the dome from the waters which were above the dome; and it was so. God called the dome heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:7‭-‬8

And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11

the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the dome of the sky.”
Genesis 1:20

“You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth.
Exodus 20:4

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

He has described a circle on the face of the water between light and darkness. “The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.
Job 26:10‭-‬11

Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18

Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
Job‬ ‭38:13‭-‬14‬ ‭

So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:13

‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭
The sun rises, and the sun goes down; to its place it hurries, and there it rises again.

Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4

The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,
Daniel 4:20

The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
Psalms 29:10

Yet he commanded the skies above and opened the doors of heaven,
Psalm 78:23

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3

He causes the clouds to arise from the end of the earth, makes lightning bolts accompany the rain, and brings the wind out of his storehouses.
Psalms 135:7

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

Praise Yah. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty firmament.
Psalms 150:1

Whoever flees at the sound of the terror shall fall into the pit; and whoever climbs out of the pit shall be caught in the snare. For the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.
Isaiah‬ ‭24:18‬ ‭

and all the host of heaven shall rot. And the skies shall roll up like a scroll, and all their host shall wither like the withering of a leaf from a vine, or like the withering from a fig tree.
Isaiah 34:4

It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26

And I looked, and look! On the dome that was above the head of the cherubim something like a stone of sapphire, and like the appearance of the shape of a throne it appeared above them.
Ezekiel 10:1

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was why removed from its place.
Revelation 6:14

After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
Revelation 4:1

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8

"All the world's Hebrew scholars and scientists are all wrong and it's actually talking about sperm and alien engineering and it's all just poetry!"

Excuse me. Cognitive dissonance much?

"Well maybe all those other books talk about ANE cosmology, but not Genesis! Even though it talks about the same stuff!"

"The true meaning of the text is about string theory (even though ancient isrealites knew nothing about that and therefore wouldn't have understood their own scripture that they wrote)"

"But one day, 3,000 years from now in the year 2024, people will unlock the true meaning of the text, even if I myself don't understand it because DNA hasn't been discovered yet!" -things Moses never said

People...the answer is right there in front of you. It's served up on a silver platter.

The Bible can't express it more plainly.
Bible scholars can't express it more plainly.
Scientists can't express it more plainly.

And everyone agrees except rogue Christians who think they know better and feel the need to correct the Bible, acting like it doesn't say what it says.

 

[HarleyER]

Well maybe your not descended from apes after all because I hear that’s one of their favorite pastimes.

Actually, I thought I had a bit of Iquana in me. : )

I guess these days one can be whatever they want. I wonder if this is where the evolutionists have led us. What a bunch of nonsense. I can't believe Christians could be so gullible.

 

[olgamc]

That's fine. I agree with the way you've laid this out.

So where are you going with this?



Ok, and those mothers and children were all born of mothers.

So no matter when or how we make the call, mothers give birth to new species.



The point is that, no matter how you shake it, individuals of new species are born from individuals of prior old species. No matter how you decide to cut that cake. Even if we retroactively go back and change species names around.

You get an A+ for creative thinking. But it's not impossible for a mother In species A (Adams mother) to give birth to a child and species B (Adam), because being born is the only way any individual comes to be. So even if we changed species names 100 times, the individuals at the end of the day were all, always born of mothers. Every single one of them.

And so, unless we call every single animal that ever lived by the same species, and reclassified T rex as the same species as panda bears...

One way or another, you always end up in a situation of individuals being born from a different species.

Lol That’s why nobody does what you are doing. Evolution is looked at in large enough chunks where a change is visible. And the boundaries are fuzzy. At any point along the timeline, if you identify an individual as species A that identification will always include the individual’s community within multiple generations of the individual. There was no definite point in time when a grey wolf gave birth to a chihuahua. And yet chihuahuas exist.



That’s what I am getting at. The boundary between one individual animal and another individual animal is fuzzy. The boundary between an animal and a human is not. In a way, our evolution theory does not support such a thing as the first individual of a species. Because it works on populations, not individuals. But we can’t give Adam’s mom a soul just by renaming her to Adam’s species. The model doesn’t work for people.

 

[Job 33:6]

Lol That’s why nobody does what you are doing. Evolution is looked at in large enough chunks where a change is visible. And the boundaries are fuzzy. At any point along the timeline, if you identify an individual as species A that identification will always include the individual’s community within multiple generations of the individual. There was no definite point in time when a grey wolf gave birth to a chihuahua. And yet chihuahuas exist.

Nothing wrong with boundaries being blurred. That's just how the natural world is. We don't deny the existence of different colors because the lines are blurred. We don't deny the existence of different minerals because the lines are blurred. Etc.

That's just the reality of the world we live in.

That’s what I am getting at. The boundary between one individual animal and another individual animal is fuzzy. The boundary between an animal and a human is not. In a way, our evolution theory does not support such a thing as the first individual of a species. Because it works on populations, not individuals. But we can’t give Adam’s mom a soul just by renaming her to Adam’s species. The model doesn’t work for people.

Biologically, I would disagree. The boundary between people and animals is blurred. Hence why there are like 20 different hominid species and people have trouble classifying human vs not human.

 

[olgamc]

Nothing wrong with boundaries being blurred. That's just how the natural world is. We don't deny the existence of different colors because the lines are blurred. We don't deny the existence of different minerals because the lines are blurred. Etc.

That's just the reality of the world we live in.

Exactly. Nobody denies the existence of individuals within the overlapping blurred boundaries. But you have denied a blurred boundary.

Biologically, I would disagree. The boundary between people and animals is blurred. Hence why there are like 20 different hominid species and people have trouble classifying human vs not human.

Hence why evolution theory does not apply to humans. One more time - humans are not just animals.

If you apply evolution theory to people and blur the lines, then you get stuck between "animals are people too" and "people are nothing more than animals" schools of thought. Which is the opposite of what the Bible teaches.

And if you take the opposite approach and apply a clear line to the animal kingdom, which is what you tried to do for the last like 10 pages, you get grey wolves giving birth to chihuahuas. Which is just not the reality.

 

[Job 33:6]

Exactly. Nobody denies the existence of individuals within the overlapping blurred boundaries. But you have denied a blurred boundary.Hence why evolution theory for humans is incomplete. Humans are not just animals. If you treat human evolution the same as animal evolution, you will eventually end up calling Adam's mom not a person just because she is not as smart or good looking as Adam.

All I'm saying is that, all individuals of new species are born of mothers. Therefore, mothers of one species will give birth to children of another.

And that's just a fact.

Eventually if you go back in time, it's true that our ancestors were not human. And that just is what it is.

 

[olgamc]

Would you like me to name a couple dozen other PhDs that verify the same thing?

People always do this. They either throw the Bible under the bus and act like they know better than Moses what the Bible says, or they throw 99% of PhD scientists under the bus on evolution, or here they'll just throw even PhD Hebrew scholarly consensus under the bus as well, even of conservative PhD holding evangelical scholars.

And it's just embarrassing. People would rather believe in worship of mesopotamian sperm trees, or try to act like Moses was actually describing string theory, rather than just accepting the text as it is.

The waters above and the pillars of the earth over Sheol, and the darkness over the face of the deep etc. these are just regular everyday ancient near east concepts.

We know what Genesis is describing. No need to throw the world's experts and historical evidence under the bus in favor of sperm trees.

People have the hardest time accepting what the text plainly says, to the extent that when the Bible says that the raqia separated water from water, and gathered the waters below to form the sea, we have to kick on our imagination in string theory in order to avoid accepting that it's just talking about H2O water above as well.

The Bible really just can't say these things more clearly and plainly.

Job 37:18 is another one. The sky is described hard as cast metal.

And people have the hardest time with this. "Well the author didn't actually need to say that"
"Well that's just Jobs friend and they were just confused"
"Well God later on corrects Job with relation to His power"

And on and on and on.

So you quote Amos 9:6 or Job 22 or Psalm 19 etc.

"Oh that's just poetry"

Isaiah 40:22

"Oh when it says circle, it actually means a sphere even though it doesn't say that".

1 Samuel on pillars of the earth:
"Oh that's some kind of poetry too

Jonah doing down to sheol
"Oh that's a spirit realm, it's not actually talking about a place underwater".


People just come up with a million excuses, rather than just acknowledging that the text is describing the same thing that countless other ancient near east texts say.

The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.
Amos‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭NASB

And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Genesis 1:6

God made the dome, and separated the waters which were below the dome from the waters which were above the dome; and it was so. God called the dome heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:7‭-‬8

And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11

the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the dome of the sky.”
Genesis 1:20

“You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth.
Exodus 20:4

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

He has described a circle on the face of the water between light and darkness. “The pillars of heaven tremble, and they are astounded at his rebuke.
Job 26:10‭-‬11

Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18

Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? 14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
Job‬ ‭38:13‭-‬14‬ ‭

So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Joshua 10:13

‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭
The sun rises, and the sun goes down; to its place it hurries, and there it rises again.

Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4

The tree that you saw, which grew great and strong, so that its top reached to heaven and was visible to the end of the whole earth,
Daniel 4:20

The Lord sits enthroned over the flood; the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.
Psalms 29:10

Yet he commanded the skies above and opened the doors of heaven,
Psalm 78:23

you set the beams of your chambers on the waters, you make the clouds your chariot, you ride on the wings of the wind,
Psalms 104:3

He causes the clouds to arise from the end of the earth, makes lightning bolts accompany the rain, and brings the wind out of his storehouses.
Psalms 135:7

To him who spread out the earth above the waters, for his loyal love endures forever.
Psalms 136:6

Praise him, highest heavens, and waters above the heavens. Let them praise the name of Yahweh, because he commanded and they were created. And he put them in place *forever and ever*, by a decree he gave that will not pass away.
Psalms 148:4‭-‬6

Praise Yah. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty firmament.
Psalms 150:1

Whoever flees at the sound of the terror shall fall into the pit; and whoever climbs out of the pit shall be caught in the snare. For the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.
Isaiah‬ ‭24:18‬ ‭

and all the host of heaven shall rot. And the skies shall roll up like a scroll, and all their host shall wither like the withering of a leaf from a vine, or like the withering from a fig tree.
Isaiah 34:4

It is he who sits above the *circle* of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26

And I looked, and look! On the dome that was above the head of the cherubim something like a stone of sapphire, and like the appearance of the shape of a throne it appeared above them.
Ezekiel 10:1

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was why removed from its place.
Revelation 6:14

After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
Revelation 4:1

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3

For the pillars of the earth are the LORD's, And he hath set the world upon them.
1 Samuel 2:8



View attachment 345380

"All the world's Hebrew scholars and scientists are all wrong and it's actually talking about sperm and alien engineering and it's all just poetry!"

Excuse me. Cognitive dissonance much?

"Well maybe all those other books talk about ANE cosmology, but not Genesis! Even though it talks about the same stuff!"

"The true meaning of the text is about string theory (even though ancient isrealites knew nothing about that and therefore wouldn't have understood their own scripture that they wrote)"

"But one day, 3,000 years from now in the year 2024, people will unlock the true meaning of the text, even if I myself don't understand it because DNA hasn't been discovered yet!" -things Moses never said

People...the answer is right there in front of you. It's served up on a silver platter.

The Bible can't express it more plainly.
Bible scholars can't express it more plainly.
Scientists can't express it more plainly.

And everyone agrees except rogue Christians who think they know better and feel the need to correct the Bible, acting like it doesn't say what it says.

Are you able to tell the difference between literal and figurative?

All I've pointed out is that all individuals of species are born of mothers. In which case, Adams mother would be of another species (if we assume Adam to be the first homo sapiens, which I do not, but just for the sake of conversation we can assume that he was).

We've been through this. Adam's mother would be of the same species as Adam.

All I'm saying is that, all individuals of new species are born of mothers. Therefore, mothers of one species will give birth to children of another.

We've been through this too. All individuals are born of mothers of the same species.

Eventually if you go back in time, it's true that our ancestors were not human. And that just is what it is.

Right, eventually a chihuahua's ancestor was a grey wolf. But a grey wolf never actually gave birth to a chihuahua. Are you able to understand the difference between an individual's own mother and a 10,000 year old ancestor?

 

[Job 33:6]

Exactly. Nobody denies the existence of individuals within the overlapping blurred boundaries. But you have denied a blurred boundary.


Hence why evolution theory does not apply to humans. One more time - humans are not just animals.

Humans are animals. I'd disagree with your assessment.

If you apply evolution theory to people and blur the lines, then you get stuck between "animals are people too" and "people are nothing more than animals" schools of thought. Which is the opposite of what the Bible teaches.

I think I've said this a million times now. The Bible isn't a science textbook. I'd say it's irrational trying to use a pre scientific text to understand modern scientific concepts.

And if you take the opposite approach and apply a clear line to the animal kingdom, which is what you tried to do for the last like 10 pages, you get grey wolves giving birth to chihuahuas. Which is just not the reality.

Actually it is a reality that species give birth to new species. I never said this meant that grey wolves gave birth to Chihuahua. However it is true that Chihuahua are descendents of historical or early Members of canis lupus.

 

[Job 33:6]

Are you able to tell the difference between literal and figurative?

"Literal" just means reading it as the author would have intended it to be read. And one way we can do this, is by understanding the context in which it was written. That is, ancient near east.

Whether they actually believed that that the sky was solid or if they were just describing it phenomenologically, is a secondary question to what the text is plainly describing. That is, an ancient near east cosmology.

Just like in Job 37:18. Which describes the sky hard as cast metal.

Whether the author actually thought the sky was solid, or if they were just describing things poetically or phenomenologically in some sense, is a secondary question to whether or not that's what the text is talking about.

Which it is indeed what the text is describing, just like Genesis 7:11 and 8:2, is describing the sky in a solid nature.

We've been through this. Adam's mother would be of the same species as Adam.

We've been through this, all members or individuals of new species, must be born of mothers.

We've been through this too. All individuals are born of mothers of the same species.

No, that logically doesn't make sense. Because if this were true, you would never have new species.

Right, eventually a chihuahua's ancestor was a grey wolf. But a grey wolf never actually gave birth to a chihuahua.

Never said that it did.

"Are you able to understand the difference between an individual's own mother and a 10,000 year old ancestor?"

Are you able to comprehend that that ancestor also has a mother? If mothers are always the same species, then we would never have more than one species. And an iguana would be the same species as an ostrich for example.

 

[sfs]

1) No one can be saved apart from the Word of God working in their hearts.

Romans 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!” 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Sure. But note that Paul is talking about preaching the gospel, not according inerrant status to some written text. Which is to say, you're ignoring what the Bible actually says and substituting your own beliefs for it.

As far as "Inspired does not mean inerrant", I quite frankly don't know where one would get such a crazy idea.

From the use of the word 'inspired' in English, in any other context than conservative Evangelical takes on the Bible.

No, the Scriptures are not on the same level as what any of us write. They are God breathe, infallible, and inerrant.

That is your opinion.

But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Uh huh. And you turn a statement about prophets being moved by God to speak into the idea that the later written accounts of those prophets were inerrant. Again, you're projecting your own dogma onto a text that doesn't say what you want it to say.

You quoted from John Poirier but based on your statement, how do you know he's correct? Couldn't he be in error? Considering he only wrote two books and there is very little on his bio page I'm not sure what he believed. Do you? Frankly, given the title of the book you quoted, you seem to want to find things wrong with the scripture, which makes me wonder if you have a teaching heart.

I care about the linguistic evidence he presented, not about his beliefs. As for speculating about my motivations -- just stop.

As far as "the Bible arise from people believing the preaching of the Gospel, before the Bible even existed" is nonsense. They didn't just run around saying, "Hey, Jesus rose from the death. Take our word for it."

When Paul was preaching to gentiles, that's pretty much exactly what he did.

In any case, I'm not objecting to people, including you, believing that the Bible is inerrant. I'm objecting to the claim that someone has to believe the Bible to be inerrant in order to be a Christian. This is an unbiblical idea, and is in fact the kind of legalistic error that Paul specifically warns against.

 

[olgamc]

Humans are animals. I'd disagree with your assessment.

My friend. If you were just an animal and nothing more, you would not have spent the last month arguing with me. LOL

 

[Job 33:6]

My friend. If you were just an animal and nothing more, you would not have spent the last month arguing with me. LOL

I'm comfortable with being a warm blooded vertebrate. Evolution doesn't pertain to the spiritual realm so I don't see it being of value trying to discuss the evolution of spirits or anything like that.

 

[olgamc]

I'm comfortable with being a warm blooded vertebrate. Evolution doesn't pertain to the spiritual realm so I don't see it being of value trying to discuss the evolution of spirits or anything like that.

Nah. Warm blooded vertebrates can't reason the same way as people can, so if that's what you are and nothing more, I am not going to debate the origins of mankind with you.

 

[Job 33:6]

Nah. Warm blooded vertebrates can't reason the same way as people can, so if that's what you are and nothing more, I am not going to debate the origins of mankind with you.

Didn't say I wasn't more. But, evolution doesn't have anything to do with the supernatural. It's a theory involving the natural world.

 

[HarleyER]

Sure. But note that Paul is talking about preaching the gospel, not according inerrant status to some written text. Which is to say, you're ignoring what the Bible actually says and substituting your own beliefs for it.

From the use of the word 'inspired' in English, in any other context than conservative Evangelical takes on the Bible.

That is your opinion.

Uh huh. And you turn a statement about prophets being moved by God to speak into the idea that the later written accounts of those prophets were inerrant. Again, you're projecting your own dogma onto a text that doesn't say what you want it to say.

I care about the linguistic evidence he presented, not about his beliefs. As for speculating about my motivations -- just stop.

When Paul was preaching to gentiles, that's pretty much exactly what he did.

In any case, I'm not objecting to people, including you, believing that the Bible is inerrant. I'm objecting to the claim that someone has to believe the Bible to be inerrant in order to be a Christian. This is an unbiblical idea, and is in fact the kind of legalistic error that Paul specifically warns against.

"That is your opinion."

No, it's not my opinion. It's the Apostle Peter's opinion which you completely ignored. One might throw in King David's Psalm 119. But that was a bit much to post. It is absolute nonsense and is nothing more than false teaching to say inerrancy is "unbiblical".

For inerrancy:

1. The Bible itself claims to be perfect. “And the words of the Lord are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times” (Psalm 12:6). “The law of the Lord is perfect” (Psalm 19:7). “Every word of God is pure” (Proverbs 30:5 KJV). These claims of purity and perfection are absolute statements. Note that it doesn’t say God’s Word is “mostly” pure or scripture is “nearly” perfect. The Bible argues for complete perfection, leaving no room for “partial perfection” theories. (from GotQuestions - Why is it important to believe in biblical inerrancy? | GotQuestions.org)​

For inspriation:

The Bible’s claims of being from God should not be understood as circular reasoning. The testimony of reliable witnesses—particularly Jesus, but also Moses, Joshua, David, Daniel, and Nehemiah in the Old Testament, and John and Paul in the New Testament—affirms the authority and verbal inspiration of the Holy Scriptures. Consider the following passages: Exodus 14:1; 20:1; Leviticus 4:1; Numbers 4:1;Deuteronomy 4:2; 32:48; Isaiah 1:10, 24; Jeremiah 1:11; Jeremiah 11:1–3; Ezekiel 1:3; 1 Corinthians 14:37; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Peter 1:16–21; 1 John 4:6. (GotQuestions - Is there proof for the inspiration of the Bible? | GotQuestions.org)​

If you don't want a Protestant source then consider a Catholic source:

The inspired books teach the truth. “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures” (CCC 107, quoting the Vatican II document Dei Verbum 11).​

However, since you don't claim any denomination, I'm not sure exactly what perspective you're coming from or how you obtain your ideas. It certainly isn't the normal view within the Christian Church.

 

[olgamc]

Didn't say I wasn't more. But, evolution doesn't have anything to do with the supernatural. It's a theory involving the natural world.

Yes, you did. This is you saying it:

Humans are animals. I'd disagree with your assessment.

And since you are just an animal, you can’t reason or speak or conceptualize or think abstractly. So even if I wanted to, I couldn’t discuss your origin with you.

 

[HarleyER]

Yes, you did. This is you saying it:

And since you are an animal, and your origin has nothing to do with supernatural, I don’t want to discuss it with you. In fact, it makes me question why you are even discussing it here. Go talk to some atheists, they will exclude God from your origin for you.

Based on many of these arguments, I've come to the conclusion that evolution and "science" has become a 21st century god or idol. People claiming to be Christians have, for whatever reason, totally threw out the scriptures and replaced it with "science". None of these arguments incorporate any scriptures or doctrine.

Sadly, many Christians seem to have bought into this false god simply because of unbelievers with fancy degrees, a smooth talking presentation, and the force of the government (politics and money). Many have replaced the Word of God with Darwin's Theory of Evolution and are spending more time trying to prove evolution instead of trying to understand God and His Word.

Evolution is no more right than Global Warming.

2 Peter 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,