The fascinating reformed theology paradox of Hebrew 6:4-6

[BNR32FAN]

There is tasting of the light, and there is feeding on the light.
Tasting of the light is not enough, one must feed on it (appropriate it to himself).

So the Holy Spirit teases people with a glimpse of divine revelation and the heavenly gift? That would be like a child saying “sike haha thought you were saved”.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is wrestling the Scriptures (2 Pe 3:16).

No your adding to the text.

”Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Jesus said “many will say to Me”. He didn’t say “many will perform miracles”. It’s a quote of what the false prophets will say to Jesus not a prophecy of what they will actually do.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Because it is a free gift requiring no work of ours.

Salvation is a free gift requiring no work but is it a free gift requiring no faith?

Probably the closest to a correct thing in your entire post.

So why didn’t you address it?

Just because a priest sprinkled water on their forehead doesn’t guarantee they will later become followers of Christ.

Baptism doesn’t automatically result in salvation therefore baptism doesn’t save anyone. Was Simon Magus saved? He was baptized and he believed.

”Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.“
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8‬:‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Was Simon Magus “the father of heresies” according to the early church fathers saved?

 

[concretecamper]

Baptism doesn’t automatically result in salvation therefore baptism doesn’t save anyone

Yes it does. Whether you fall away afterwards is the question. This has been the unchanging teaching of His Church and the teachings of Scripture.

So why didn’t you address it?

What?

”Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.“
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8‬:‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Was Simon Magus “the father of heresies” according to the early church fathers saved?

According to the Church Fathers, all who die in the State of Grace is saved. All who are Baptized are saved, unless the fall from grace. Paul knew that very well and was never assured of his own salvation.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

The Epistle to the Hebrews is addressed to “holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling” and it is said in the same verse (3:1) that Jesus is the Apostle and the High Priest of the confession of both the recipients and the writer. Therefore the epistle is written to Hebrew Christians, true believers in Christ as their savior. The Greek in this epistle is polished and very clear and it was unanimously understood for 1,500 years to teach the conditional security of the believer, particularly in the following passages:

Heb. 3:12. Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Heb. 10: 26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on {the testimony of} two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews 6:4-6 in an excellent example of the refined style of Greek found in the epistle to the Hebrews and the very careful wording of it. Indeed, this passage of Scripture gives us the most detailed description of a saved person that we find anywhere in the Bible. It is important to note that the word choices here represent the language used in the church of the time to speak of true and genuine Christians.

By the beginning of the 16th century, however, the Christian church was in a horrible state of corruption and abuse and the early Reformers reacted to this corruption and abuse in a very severe manner and radical manner. Most unfortunately, they had no concordances, Greek lexicons, or Greek Grammars or any of the other basic tools employed today by lay persons for the study of the New Testament and their resources for the study of the Old Testament were nearly non-existent. Their situation was comparable to a 16th century physician attempting to perform open-heart surgery during the night in a filthy cow barn using oil lamps for lighting and carpenters’ tools for surgical instruments. It is no wonder at all that many of them came up with theological concepts that were absurd and which directly contradicted the teaching of the Bible. One of these concepts was that once a person is saved, he cannot lose his salvation. Fortunately, the large majority of Christians have continued to believe in conditional security even though the doctrine of eternal security tickles the ears of many.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995 edition)

 

[Mercy Shown]

So then, why identify this class of people so thoroughly? This is a very specific set of identifiers, such as, enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and thave tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,and it even identifies the end for these people in verse 8. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

It states that it is impossible to renew them onto repentance again and explains why. They crucify Christ afresh. It doesn't say daily. They put him to open shame. Does this not fit with those mentioned in Chapter 10? "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

How can one receive the Knowledge of truth if the Holy Spirit has not renewed them? 1 Cor 2:14 seems to say it is not possible..

This passage is a big problem for those who follow the teachings of John Calvin.

 

[Clare73]

So the Holy Spirit teases people with a glimpse of divine revelation and the heavenly gift? That would be like a child saying “sike haha thought you were saved”.

See the case of Pharaoh, Ex 4:21-23.

 

[Clare73]

No your adding to the text.

”Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Jesus said “many will say to Me”. He didn’t say “many will perform miracles”. It’s a quote of what the false prophets will say to Jesus not a prophecy of what they will actually do.

Did he say, "They did not perform miracles."

Whose adding to the text?

 

[LoveofTruth]

7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:​

​

“Today, if you will hear His voice,​

8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,​

In the day of trial in the wilderness,​

9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,​

And saw My works forty years.​

10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,​

And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,​

And they have not known My ways.’​

11 So I swore in My wrath,​

‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”​

​

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:​

​

“Today, if you will hear His voice,​

Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”​

​

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.​

​

[The New King James Version (Heb 3:7–19). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

The context of this passage is clear. The Children of Israel did not enter the promised land until after they wanderd around in the desert for 40 years. All perished in that time except 3 believers (if I remember the number correctly). God swore that the unbelief of those who perished would prevent them from going in, and He kept that promise. Yet when the Psalmist wrote Psalm 95:7d-11, he was not talking primarily about the Children of Israel who were led by Moses and who perished in the desert, he was using them as an example of what happens to people in the psalmist's day who hear the Lord's voice and harden their hearts to what He says like the Children of Israel did under Moses. And when the writer of Hebrews recounts the Psalm and the warning, he reiterates that it is not about the past, but is a warning for then present-day people who hear God's voice -- they should not harden their hearts trough unbelief like the Children of Israel did under Moses. And we can take it a step further and say that today, April 7, 2024, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts through unbelief. Instead, cease from your works, rest all your hope in Christ, and enter His rest. Otherwise you will perish according to the example of unbelief set by the Israelites who perished in the desert under Moses. This passage provides no support whatsoever for believing then later perishing through unbelief.

Notice that the writer is speaking to spirit filled believers who are in Christ and warns of the danger of having an evil heart of unbelief through the deceitfulness of sin, and he includes himself in this warning. This was written to believers. Not unbelievers.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Notice that the writer is speaking to spirit filled believers who are in Christ and warns of the danger of having an evil heart of unbelief through the deceitfulness of sin, and he includes himself in this warning. This was written to believers. Not unbelievers.

I don't think so. It is most likely that Hebrews was written to "Hebrews" who were somewhat seriously considering the possibility that Jesus was actually the prophesied Savior. Some of them probably had already firmed up their opinion, but apparently many had not. The following excerpt makes the fact that some had rested all their hope in Christ and some had not yet done so:

For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His [these people had rested all their weight on Christ]. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest [these people had not yet rested all their weight on Christ], lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience [and were in danger]. (Heb 4:10–11)​

 

[Clare73]

I don't think so. It is most likely that Hebrews was written to "Hebrews" who were somewhat seriously considering the possibility that Jesus was actually the prophesied Savior. Some of them probably had already firmed up their opinion, but apparently many had not. The following excerpt makes the fact that some had rested all their hope in Christ and some had not yet done so:

For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His [these people had rested all their weight on Christ]. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest [these people had not yet rested all their weight on Christ], lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience [and were in danger]. (Heb 4:10–11)​

Agreed. . .these people had tasted the heavenly gifts, but they must feed on them (appropriate them to themselves) in order to be saved.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes it does. Whether you fall away afterwards is the question. This has been the unchanging teaching of His Church and the teachings of Scripture.

So unbelievers can’t be baptized?

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Epistle to the Hebrews is addressed to “holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling” and it is said in the same verse (3:1) that Jesus is the Apostle and the High Priest of the confession of both the recipients and the writer. Therefore the epistle is written to Hebrew Christians, true believers in Christ as their savior. The Greek in this epistle is polished and very clear and it was unanimously understood for 1,500 years to teach the conditional security of the believer, particularly in the following passages:

Heb. 3:12. Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Heb. 10: 26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on {the testimony of} two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews 6:4-6 in an excellent example of the refined style of Greek found in the epistle to the Hebrews and the very careful wording of it. Indeed, this passage of Scripture gives us the most detailed description of a saved person that we find anywhere in the Bible. It is important to note that the word choices here represent the language used in the church of the time to speak of true and genuine Christians.

By the beginning of the 16th century, however, the Christian church was in a horrible state of corruption and abuse and the early Reformers reacted to this corruption and abuse in a very severe manner and radical manner. Most unfortunately, they had no concordances, Greek lexicons, or Greek Grammars or any of the other basic tools employed today by lay persons for the study of the New Testament and their resources for the study of the Old Testament were nearly non-existent. Their situation was comparable to a 16th century physician attempting to perform open-heart surgery during the night in a filthy cow barn using oil lamps for lighting and carpenters’ tools for surgical instruments. It is no wonder at all that many of them came up with theological concepts that were absurd and which directly contradicted the teaching of the Bible. One of these concepts was that once a person is saved, he cannot lose his salvation. Fortunately, the large majority of Christians have continued to believe in conditional security even though the doctrine of eternal security tickles the ears of many.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995 edition)

I agree with most of what you said I would only clarify that it was one church in particular that became corrupted and that church was excommunicated in 1054AD. The eastern churches didn’t participate in the corruption and they had nothing to do with the Reformation. Other than that I completely agree.

 

[BNR32FAN]

See the case of Pharaoh, Ex 4:21-23.

God specifically said why He was going to harden Pharaoh’s heart in chapter 3.

”But I know that the king of Egypt will not permit you to go, except under compulsion. So I will stretch out My hand and strike Egypt with all My miracles which I shall do in the midst of it; and after that he will let you go.“
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭3‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

God struck Egypt with the plagues because He already knew that Pharaoh was not going to cooperate.

 

[concretecamper]

So unbelievers can’t be baptized?

Why would an unbeliever want to be Baptized?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why would an unbeliever want to be Baptized?

There are several reasons, maybe they are a false professor, maybe they want to fit in with the crowd, maybe they want to appear to be of good moral character, maybe they want to be in a relationship with a Christian, maybe they’re being pressured by their loved ones. There are numerous reasons why unbelievers might want to get baptized. Would any of these people be saved because they were baptized?

 

[concretecamper]

There are several reasons, maybe they are a false professor, maybe they want to fit in with the crowd, maybe they want to appear to be of good moral character, maybe they want to be in a relationship with a Christian, maybe they’re being pressured by their loved ones. There are numerous reasons why unbelievers might want to get baptized. Would any of these people be saved because they were baptized?

You have to do better than that. You forgot maybe they just landed from the moon.

Maybe you are more than familiar with such false people, but I am not.

Again, why would a genuine non believer want to be Baptized?

 

[BNR32FAN]

You have to do better than that. You forgot maybe they just landed from the moon.

Maybe you are more than familiar with such false people, but I am not.

Again, why would a genuine non believer want to be Baptized?

Ok so you’re going to just run from the question now because I’ve proven you wrong? You’re just going to pretend that unbelievers can’t be baptized because that would prove that baptism doesn’t save someone. I gave you several viable reasons why an unbeliever might get baptized.

There are several reasons, maybe they are a false professor, maybe they want to fit in with the crowd, maybe they want to appear to be of good moral character, maybe they want to be in a relationship with a Christian, maybe they’re being pressured by their loved ones. There are numerous reasons why unbelievers might want to get baptized. Would any of these people be saved because they were baptized?

 

[Valletta]

Baptism doesn’t automatically result in salvation therefore baptism doesn’t save anyone. Was Simon Magus saved? He was baptized and he believed.

Holy Scripture tells us Baptism saves:

1 Peter 3:20-21 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. RSVCE

 

[LoveofTruth]

I don't think so. It is most likely that Hebrews was written to "Hebrews" who were somewhat seriously considering the possibility that Jesus was actually the prophesied Savior. Some of them probably had already firmed up their opinion, but apparently many had not. The following excerpt makes the fact that some had rested all their hope in Christ and some had not yet done so:

For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His [these people had rested all their weight on Christ]. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest [these people had not yet rested all their weight on Christ], lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience [and were in danger]. (Heb 4:10–11)​

Yes, he speaks to believers in particular in the warning of having an evil heart in departing from the living God

as we read,

“Wherefore, holy brethren, [talking to holy brethren in Christ] partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;...“But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, [the writer includes himself in this "we"] if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end...“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God...[you can't depart from God unless your once with him] For we [the writer talks of himself and them again] are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;” (Hebrews 3:1, 6, 12, 14 KJV)