The Triumph of Bidenomics!

[NxNW]

It is. You cannot charge an EV as fast as you can fuel a car.

Do you know how fast a level 3 or level 4 charger works?

You cannot drive the same distance on a single charge as you can on a single tank of gas. It's not even close.

A Tesla S can go 400 miles.

You are correct. I misread the numbers as the one-way time for charging when in fact it was for round-trip. So in one direction, it would add 3 hours and 5 minutes of charging and 6 hours and 10 minutes to the overall round-trip. That's still substantially more time than it would take me to fuel my car.

Those are pessimistic numbers. But let's say it does take longer for your 5 annual trips to South Virginia. The other 355 days a year it saves you time. I think you come out ahead in the long run. Maybe not, but for me and my anecdotal experience it works out.

Are you suggesting that ABRP is wrong and it won't take me an extra 3+ hours to take a trip to Florida? Do I actually need to make that trip to find out that it's going to take me 3+ hours longer?

You won't know until you do it.

Actually, you should rotate your tires every 5,000-7,500 miles, the same interval that most new vehicles recommend for oil changes. So if you're getting your tires rotated as recommended, you're having maintenance done at the same interval as an ICE vehicle. Also, tire rotation generally takes a bit longer than an oil change.

I'll tell you a secret: it's been week over a year since I've had my EV in a shop.

I can understand that. My ICE vehicle calculates how far I can drive before I run out of gas. If I've got cruise set at 75 mph on the Interstate, the next time I fill up it will report that I can go 500+ miles. If I've been doing a lot of stop and go driving, it will report closer to 420.

But are you saying that if you drive 75 mph on the Interstate, the EVs range will worsen?

It will, just as with an ICE car.

The exact opposite is true for my ICE car. Cruise set at 75 mph on the open road nets me the longest range for a tank of gas.

That's a new one for me.

So if you're saying I'll have reduced range traveling at 75 mph in an EV (which is where I set my cruise) I'll either have to stop more often, or it will take me even longer to get where I'm going.

Most likely. But if you go a bit slower, you make up for it by skipping a charger.

Most cars today use synthetic oil. In 2019, 70% of new vehicles were using either synthetic or blended oil. That number has only increased since then.

I thought Republicans only used real oil?

I don't make the rules....

 

[NxNW]

6 hours round trip from PA to FL is indeed "hours". Anyone making a long distance trip in an EV is indeed spending hours at charging stations.

Combined, it might be hours. But not a single station. Then again, the same applies to gas stations.

EVGo charges a monthly fee for reduced rates. Up to $13/month.

They're not charging me anything.

ABRP says that I would have to stop 6 times to charge on my trip from here to Florida.

As discussed earlier, those figures are wrong.

On average those charges would require roughly 70% of the battery to be charged (from various starting and end charing levels). The EV6 has a 77.4 kWh battery. 70% of that is 54.18 kWh. 54.18 kWh x 6 stops ~ 325 kWh required for the one-way trip. Currently public charging stations are charging between $0.30-$0.48 per kWh (source). Let's just use $0.40/kWh for our example. 325 kWh at $0.40/kWh = $130 in public charging fees to drive from PA to FL. $260, round-trip.

Not even close to accurate. With a free membership the rates are much lower.

In my ICE vehicle, I will stop for gas probably 3 times each way.

Same as a Tesla S.

Right now, EVs represent just 3% of all cars on the road. California has the highest adoption rate at just 2.5%. That is not "mass adoption" by any definition of the word.

The roads and parking lots are full of EVs. Maybe Alabama or wherever is slow to catch on.

Just because one time on a rural road on your way to an isolated airport you couldn't find a gas station doesn't mean that's the norm. It's not. Not even close.

It didn't make me wistful for an ICE car, that's for sure.

And I think you're minimizing them.

Well, I've actually driven an EV on a long trip.

 

[essentialsaltes]

US employers added a surprisingly robust 303,000 jobs in March in a sign of continued economic strength​

 

[probinson]

Do you know how fast a level 3 or level 4 charger works?

Yes.

Do you know how fast I can fuel my car? Quite a bit faster than a level 3 or level 4 charger.

A Tesla S can go 400 miles.

A Tesla model S has an advertised range of 359 miles. Oh, and it STARTS at $71,090, which is just a teensy bit more than I usually pay for my cars.

Those are pessimistic numbers. But let's say it does take longer for your 5 annual trips to South Virginia. The other 355 days a year it saves you time. I think you come out ahead in the long run. Maybe not, but for me and my anecdotal experience it works out.

I'm sure it does for you. It sounds like you use your car very differently than I do.

Also, anecdotally speaking, it takes me 2-5 minutes to fuel up on a regular day. During the rest of the year when I'm not traveling, I WFH. So I only put gas in the car maybe once every other week. That's 26 fuel ups per year. Call it 30. Or an hour to 2-1/2 hours per year in fueling. Again, I'd have 3x that much time in one trip to Florida.

You won't know until you do it.

Again, are you suggesting ABRP is wrong? The whole point, I thought, of this app was to help me plan my route. What good is it if the numbers aren't accurate?

I'll tell you a secret: it's been week over a year since I've had my EV in a shop.

I hope you haven't gone more than 7,500 miles in those 53 weeks. Otherwise, you're unnecessarily reducing the life of your tires by not having them rotated.

It will, just as with an ICE car.

This is simply not true. I get the best gas mileage on my ICE vehicle on long trips where my cruise is set almost constantly to 75 mph.

That's a new one for me.

Really? It's pretty common knowledge that highway mileage is different than city mileage. Heck, car manufacturers provide mileage in highway mileage so they can claim the highest possible number.

Most likely. But if you go a bit slower, you make up for it by skipping a charger.

In an EV. As compared to an ICE vehicle, you're just losing time both ways.

I thought Republicans only used real oil?

Sorry to disappoint. I'm a registered independent.

I don't make the rules....

You just misinterpret them.

 

[probinson]

Combined, it might be hours. But not a single station. Then again, the same applies to gas stations.

But not on a single trip. I won't spend anywhere near 6-hours at gas stations when I drive to Florida in June. Heck, I won't spend anywhere near 6-hours at gas stations this entire year.

It's weird that you're trying to argue that it doesn't take longer to charge than it does to get gas. It does. By quite a bit. I have no doubt that there are many advantages to EVs. Charging times on long trips is not one of them.

They're not charging me anything.

How did you manage that? Here is their pricing again. It's right off their website.

What EVgo "plan" do you have that is free? Or are you just doing Pay As You Go?

And I just realized that in my earlier example, I didn't include the $1 session fee. So with 12 stops, that adds $12 to the overall charging cost, which brings the total charging cost to $272 vs. $270 with gas.

As discussed earlier, those figures are wrong.

Then why use ABRP? Here's the trip again. 6 stops, one way, 3 hours and 5 minutes.

You keep saying these numbers are "pessimistic" or "wrong". But you don't say why. What good is ABRP if the numbers it gives me are wrong?

Not even close to accurate. With a free membership the rates are much lower.

No, with a $1/month plan, the rates are 8% lower, with a $7/month plan, the rates are 20% lower, and with a $13/month plan, the rates are 30% lower.

This article dated March 27, 2024 says that Level 3 fast-charging rates are indeed currently $0.30-$0.48 per kWh.

Level 3: Also known as direct current fast chargers (DCFC), level 3 chargers are the fastest. They can charge your battery to nearly full in as little as an hour and will cost between $10 to $30 per charge. The cost per kilowatt hour is approximately $0.30 to $0.48​

​

How Much Does It Cost to Charge an EV on a Road Trip?

The cost of charging an electric vehicle (EV) on a road trip will vary based on many factors. Here's how to estimate how much your trip will cost.

www.investopedia.com

​

The numbers I'm using are quite accurate.

Same as a Tesla S.

No, ABRP says that a long-range Tesla Model S will need 5 stops totaling 93 minutes of charging. In case you're wondering, that's 2 more than 3.

Sweet! So all I have to do is drop $75k on a Tesla Model S to reduce my charging stops by one and cut my charging time in half. Of course, I guess I'm just supposed to forget that I'm spending $45k more than my ICE car to "save" money on gas.

The roads and parking lots are full of EVs. Maybe Alabama or wherever is slow to catch on.

I'm sorry that you don't believe the data I posted. The fact of the matter is, even in California where EV adoption is highest, only 2.5% of cars registered in the state are EVs. And again, no one would argue that 2.5% overall adoption constitutes "mass adoption".

Well, I've actually driven an EV on a long trip.

I'm also guessing you don't mind stopping every 2 hours for 15-30 minutes. That would irritate me.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Most countries would love to have this economy. Why don't Americans feel better about it?​

The US job market is on fire.

• With 39 straight months of job growth, America is in the middle of its fifth-longest stretch of employment gains in history.
• The 303,000 jobs created last month were about a third higher than economists expected.
• The historically low 3.8% unemployment rate continues America's longest stretch of a sub-4% jobless rate in more than five decades.

And yet... Americans continue to pooh-pooh the economy.

[in a word: inflation]

But Americans keep spending and employers keep hiring, and costs are not going to come down, even as inflation — the pace of price increases — slows. So, every time folks go shopping and see the alarmingly big receipt, they'll get a reminder of frustrating inflation, souring their view of what's a remarkably strong US economy.

 

[SimplyMe]

All of this is fascinating. But people who haven't bought EVs because they're concerned about range are likely the ones that require more range.

Maybe, or maybe they've just heard the fake claims about how they will only have 60 miles of real world range and worry about it because of that. Maybe they don't realize they can get up every morning with full range. Most people I know see to not really understand that it can fit their needs.

Earlier in the thread you said that charging overnight on a 110v outlet adds about 40 miles of range. If you drive 100 miles per day and only add 40 miles each night, you're going to run out of range pretty quickly.

Yes, I did. I assume someone driving 100 miles per day will install a 220V charger, which can charge the car overnight. Again, many EVs come with a 220V charger and/or a credit to install a home charger, and that is on top of the federal (and often state, or even power company) incentives for installing a charger. So even days they drive double their normal amount they can still start the next morning with a full charge.

I'm certain the infrastructure will continue to improve. I'm not convinced it will move as quickly as you think. I could be wrong. Time will tell.

It is improving quickly. I pointed out West Virginia's initiative where they are adding charging stations every 50 miles along the major highways in their state -- and most states have a program that is similar. An example is Texas, which also is adding charging stations every 50 miles along Interstate Highways, 70 miles apart in the rest of the state, with at least 4 chargers at every station. This is on top of adding charging stations in all the state parks, as well as adding a charging station in every county seat. The chargers for Phase 1 (along Interstate Highways) is to be completed by Winter of this year. And this is just the states, not taking into account the new stations being added by the EV charging companies (like EVGo).

It really doesn't. At least not for me. I've been driving the way I drive for over 30 years. I've driven to Florida a dozen times in those 30 years. I'm good, but thanks for the science lesson.

Interesting how you're trying to show me that I need to change my decades-long driving habits to accommodate the limitations of the EV.

I'm not doing anything but pointing out what the experts claim. I don't expect you will change your driving habits, at least until "forced" to by age or infirmity.

I misread it thinking it was six hours of stops one-way. It was actually six hours of stops round-trip. 3 hours and 5 minutes each way, to be exact. I corrected that in one of my other posts above.



I just got gas yesterday. Since we've been talking about this, I timed myself. From the time I tapped to pay to the time I hung the nozzle back up on the pump was just over 2 minutes. The car was nearly empty.

That is what you have to compare with EV charging. All of this other stuff you're talking about with restroom breaks and food stops is just noise. The fact is, it takes just over 2 minutes to "recharge" my K5 from empty to full. The EV6 takes an advertised 18 minutes to go from 10% to 80% on a fast DC charger, 9x longer. And that doesn't even give you 100% of the range.


Thank goodness. For as long as it takes to charge, who would want to do that?

That's nice. I think my issue is: you don't think I understand your point. I do understand, I used to drive a lot like you, other than many of my trips were actually longer than yours (often over 1500 miles). I recall a trip where I went roughly 700 miles one day -- I didn't start as early as I would have normally liked, wasn't able to leave until after noon. I drove until after midnight and pulled over at a rest stop to get some sleep. Unfortunately, I'd gone quite a ways north and, while it was fall, it was around freezing at that rest stop. I didn't really want to keep my car running while I slept, so the car after an hour or so started getting cold and I couldn't sleep anymore. I then drove almost 900 miles to my destination. I had a car where I could drive roughly 600 miles without refueling, so didn't make many stops; I think two hours at the rest stop to try and sleep, then maybe 3 roughly 30 minute stops to get some food.

So I understand you better than you think -- I think the only difference is that I have never liked eating meals while driving. It seems you are younger than I am, so maybe a time will come when you can't do it that way anymore. Maybe then you'll start understanding why making more stops actually keeps you from getting as tired and makes the trip more enjoyable.

The "recharge" time of the EV6 is STILL going to be 9x longer than fueling my ICE vehicle.

As long as they're OK with modifying their driving habits to accommodate the limitations the range of the EV presents.

That is just it, you don't understand it yet (and maybe you never will). There are plenty of people whose brains are too wired to "go, go, go" to not be able to slow down a bit and relax. OTOH, my experience is a lot of people will, they just won't understand it until they try it.

 

[SimplyMe]

But not on a single trip. I won't spend anywhere near 6-hours at gas stations when I drive to Florida in June. Heck, I won't spend anywhere near 6-hours at gas stations this entire year.

It's weird that you're trying to argue that it doesn't take longer to charge than it does to get gas. It does. By quite a bit. I have no doubt that there are many advantages to EVs. Charging times on long trips is not one of them.

Of course, by June it may not take 6 hours in an EV6. We'll have to wait and see how fast chargers come online and how soon Kia updates the EV6 for the North American Charging Standard (NACS). Normally there is an update for the EV6s that comes out at this time of year, this year it won't be until June -- it is possible it is delayed because that is when NACS will be made available for the Kia.

How did you manage that? Here is their pricing again. It's right off their website.

View attachment 345270

What EVgo "plan" do you have that is free? Or are you just doing Pay As You Go?

You do realize that EVgo is one of dozens of companies that has charging stations? In his case, though, with a Model S, it is clear he doesn't ever go to EVgo, he uses Tesla Superchargers -- he isn't required to have a "membership" beyond the Tesla app and a credit card (since he owns a Tesla, the car is "enrolled"). He just walks up, plugs his car in, and it starts charging.

As a general rule, Electrify America has tended to be the "go to" for road trips across the US -- they got the earliest start and are along most Interstate highways. EVgo is starting to catch up, as is ChargePoint, then there is ShellRecharge, Volta, etc.

And I just realized that in my earlier example, I didn't include the $1 session fee. So with 12 stops, that adds $12 to the overall charging cost, which brings the total charging cost to $272 vs. $270 with gas.

Sorry, most of those charging stops that you were calculating weren't EVgo. And, if you use his example, using Superchargers, there is no session fees and the prices, from what I've seen, are lower than EVgo's.

Then why use ABRP? Here's the trip again. 6 stops, one way, 3 hours and 5 minutes.

View attachment 345271

You keep saying these numbers are "pessimistic" or "wrong". But you don't say why. What good is ABRP if the numbers it gives me are wrong?



No, with a $1/month plan, the rates are 8% lower, with a $7/month plan, the rates are 20% lower, and with a $13/month plan, the rates are 30% lower.

This article dated March 27, 2024 says that Level 3 fast-charging rates are indeed currently $0.30-$0.48 per kWh.

Level 3: Also known as direct current fast chargers (DCFC), level 3 chargers are the fastest. They can charge your battery to nearly full in as little as an hour and will cost between $10 to $30 per charge. The cost per kilowatt hour is approximately $0.30 to $0.48​

​

How Much Does It Cost to Charge an EV on a Road Trip?

The cost of charging an electric vehicle (EV) on a road trip will vary based on many factors. Here's how to estimate how much your trip will cost.

www.investopedia.com

​

The numbers I'm using are quite accurate.



No, ABRP says that a long-range Tesla Model S will need 5 stops totaling 93 minutes of charging. In case you're wondering, that's 2 more than 3.


View attachment 345273

Sweet! So all I have to do is drop $75k on a Tesla Model S to reduce my charging stops by one and cut my charging time in half. Of course, I guess I'm just supposed to forget that I'm spending $45k more than my ICE car to "save" money on gas.

No, as I pointed out earlier, a Tesla Model 3 does the same -- and it is cheaper than the EV6. After incentives, it is roughly the cost of your car. So, roughly the same price, cheap "fuel" charging at home and cheaper charging rates when on the road. Just that the time you save on things like your 30 minute oil changes and fuel stops you use in a bit over an hour on charging stops on your trip.

I'm sorry that you don't believe the data I posted. The fact of the matter is, even in California where EV adoption is highest, only 2.5% of cars registered in the state are EVs. And again, no one would argue that 2.5% overall adoption constitutes "mass adoption".



I'm also guessing you don't mind stopping every 2 hours for 15-30 minutes. That would irritate me.

I know what he is talking about. I don't live in California but I see a lot of EVs in this area. I wonder if some of it is, with homes with two vehicles, the EV tends to be the one driven more. One thing that had surprised me, my son-in-law is something of a car guy, particularly likely small sporty cars. His car is pretty new, fast, and smallish but fits him and his family. Yet, I've noticed that when my daughter isn't using it, he tends to drive her EV6 -- that surprised me, based on his preference in cars. As I've also mentioned, his car fits the family yet, for the longer drives they are doing, they are taking the EV6 -- despite the extra stops and charging.

 

[NxNW]

US employers added a surprisingly robust 303,000 jobs in March in a sign of continued economic strength​

Don't interrupt our EV argument!!

 

[NxNW]

Yes.Do you know how fast I can fuel my car? Quite a bit faster than a level 3 or level 4 charger.

How many times have you actually used a level 3 or 4 charger?

A Tesla model S has an advertised range of 359 miles.

Up to 400.

Oh, and it STARTS at $71,090, which is just a teensy bit more than I usually pay for my cars.

Don't change the subject.

Also, anecdotally speaking, it takes me 2-5 minutes to fuel up on a regular day.

I think it takes longer just pumping the gas. I don't buy it.

Again, are you suggesting ABRP is wrong? The whole point, I thought, of this app was to help me plan my route. What good is it if the numbers aren't accurate?

I don't use it, but those numbers are ridiculous. I don't have a problem saying that website isn't useful. But that's a side topic.

I hope you haven't gone more than 7,500 miles in those 53 weeks. Otherwise, you're unnecessarily reducing the life of your tires by not having them rotated.

And yet the world still turns.

Really? It's pretty common knowledge that highway mileage is different than city mileage. Heck, car manufacturers provide mileage in highway mileage so they can claim the highest possible number.

I didn't say anything about city vs highway mileage.

You just misinterpret them.

You knock down a lot of strawmen, I'll give you that.

 

[MotoToTheMax]

Wife and I bought a Hyundai Ioniq 5 in Feb 2023. After a full year, we certainly made a great decision. The level 2 charger was completely free through local power incentives. Charger itself, install, permits, broke completely even.

We do a 500 mile in-law visit about 3 times a year, so we use our 2017 SUV for that. In a full year, I filled the tank in that thing 10 times total. Solar panels have paid for the home charging so far and we build credit for giving the power company excess during summer so that when winter time rolls around, we almost break even. Not quite, but it's close.

I understand our situation doesn't work for everyone, but the EV was a no-brainer in hindsight for us.

 

[weekEd]

Do they sell conversion kits for Yugos?
More jobs added... How is the good times going to roll if businesses gotta hire people, there hasn't be a slow down to buy equity...

 

[Ana the Ist]

I see a lot of Teslas out there.

Really?

I've seen 1.

Buying a car this year...not electric though. Waste of money.

 

[Ana the Ist]

For a ban? I would guess 50+ years.

And why is that a bad thing? Why hold on to an outdated INCREDIBLY old technology?
Look at how much a cell phone changed from the90s to now.
View attachment 344414

to

View attachment 344415


It starts to get absurd that you want to hold onto this old outdate, dirty technology. Why? Why do you want to die on the internal combustion engine hill? It's such a pointless one.

Are you under the impression that the smartphone is "clean technology"?

I could picture a poster yelling at a secretary "Hey! Don't get rid of the mimeograph machine!!!"
"But it's old and this printer does a better job faster!"
"I don't care! It doesn't give you the cardio workout of the mimeograph!"

It's silly.

It's silly that you're comparing something more efficient and cheaper with less efficient.

Let's see....

Honda civic 2024...average 38mpg 12.4 gallon tank. 450 mile range. Roughly 40$ to fill. 24k$

Tesla 3. 39k$ 390 mile range (if you don't use the stereo or AC) realistically it's 220 miles. Oh...and you only have to wait 15-40 mins to charge it for the low low cost of...12-17$.

Some quick math....440 miles is 24-32$ so at least the Tesla is cheaper there....but I'm not certain that we're talking mimeograph machine and printer here. It's nearly 15000 higher off the jump....and there's nothing clean about it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Given the nationalistic spirit conservatives have, I find it utterly baffling how limp and ineffectual they actually and truly, find American innovation.
You guys here are whining about 60% 6 years from now as an objective and we got....

View attachment 344421


Europe has almost hte same target. America gets involved in an arms race that can lead to the destruction of the planet and everyone is 100% on board. America attempts to challenge itself to improve conditions on the planet for future generations "no. Can't happen. We cannot do it. It can't be done".
And just ignore so many other parts of the developed world.

Even China has a target of 40% and they have 20million MORE cars with you.

What...are you telling me you're going to lose to China? You guys SERIOUSLY think you can't beat China on this one?

If you think China, Europe, or any of that noise will do anything....you're kidding yourself.

Maybe you haven't noticed the war in Ukraine...those tanks aren't running off solar panels lol.

Maybe you haven't noticed those giant shipping barges that knock down bridges? Those aren't running on lithium batteries guy....

EVs are the equivalent of "recycling" back in the 80s-90s. It's just a platitude for the foolish.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Wife and I bought a Hyundai Ioniq 5 in Feb 2023. After a full year, we certainly made a great decision. The level 2 charger was completely free through local power incentives. Charger itself, install, permits, broke completely even.

We do a 500 mile in-law visit about 3 times a year, so we use our 2017 SUV for that. In a full year, I filled the tank in that thing 10 times total. Solar panels have paid for the home charging so far and we build credit for giving the power company excess during summer so that when winter time rolls around, we almost break even. Not quite, but it's close.

I understand our situation doesn't work for everyone, but the EV was a no-brainer in hindsight for us.

You know about the Ioniq recall....right?

Don't know if it applies to your car...but apparently they are prone to exploding and potentially burning down houses.

Hyundai and Kia recall vehicles due to charging unit problems

Hyundai and Kia said the battery charging unit in the Ioniq and other vehicles may not function properly.

www.cbsnews.com

This is a serious post. Not trolling. I don't want your car exploding or anyone in your family harmed.

Edit- here's the article about them combusting.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/08/03/business/hyundai-kia-fire-recall

2023 Ionics were in the recall list. I would talk to whomever while you're still under warranty.

 

[SimplyMe]

You know about the Ioniq recall....right?

Don't know if it applies to your car...but apparently they are prone to exploding and potentially burning down houses.

Hyundai and Kia recall vehicles due to charging unit problems

Hyundai and Kia said the battery charging unit in the Ioniq and other vehicles may not function properly.

www.cbsnews.com

This is a serious post. Not trolling. I don't want your car exploding or anyone in your family harmed.

Edit- here's the article about them combusting.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/08/03/business/hyundai-kia-fire-recall

2023 Ionics were in the recall list. I would talk to whomever while you're still under warranty.

No, nothing about burning or blowing up there. There are some Hyundai/Kia cars that were recalled for catching fire and possibly blowing up, to the point that people have been told not to park them in their garages, but they were all cars with gasoline engines.

It is also worth noting that cars with gasoline engines are far more likely to catch fire. One study found that out of every 100,000 gas cars sold, on average 1,530 had a fire; out of every 100,000 hybrid cars, 3,475 caught fire; and out of every 100,000 gas cars sold, only 25 catch fire. Other studies have shown similar results, in a quote from Great Britain, "“All the data shows that EVs are just much, much less likely to set on fire than their petrol equivalent,” Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit Head of Transport Colin Walker claimed in a prepared statement. “The many, many fires that you have for petrol or diesel cars just aren’t reported.”"

 

[SimplyMe]

Are you under the impression that the smartphone is "clean technology"?




It's silly that you're comparing something more efficient and cheaper with less efficient.

Let's see....

Honda civic 2024...average 38mpg 12.4 gallon tank. 450 mile range. Roughly 40$ to fill. 24k$

Tesla 3. 39k$ 390 mile range (if you don't use the stereo or AC) realistically it's 220 miles. Oh...and you only have to wait 15-40 mins to charge it for the low low cost of...12-17$.

Some quick math....440 miles is 24-32$ so at least the Tesla is cheaper there....but I'm not certain that we're talking mimeograph machine and printer here. It's nearly 15000 higher off the jump....and there's nothing clean about it.

I'm sorry, let's do something closer to an equivalent comparison.

The Tesla Model 3 Long Range is $44K (prior to federal credit), it has an EPA rated combined range of 358 miles -- it gets 131 MPGe combined, 134 MPGe city, and 126 MPGe highway; using motors that total 394 hp and 277 lb. ft. of torque. I won't argue that Tesla cars typically can't quite get their EPA rated range, it appears most testers claim that the actual range is between 10 and 13% lower -- so we round that off at about 320 miles that it will actually go in combined mileage. I should add that using the stereo and AC has little actual effect on range, less than on the Civic R (air conditioning is less efficient in gasoline cars, where the compressor has to be run directly by the gasoline engine, than in an EV).

The equivalent Honda Civic would be the Type R. It doesn't quite have the power of the Tesla but comes closest, at 315 HP and 310 lb.-ft of torque. The EPA rates the fuel economy of the Type R at 24 mpg combined, 22 city, and 28 highway, with a total range of 298 miles. It also costs $44K.

So, no, your example, if we actually use something that is closer to being equivalent, is not cheaper nor does it have more range.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, nothing about burning or blowing up there. There are some Hyundai/Kia cars that were recalled for catching fire and possibly blowing up,

Hyundai also recalled 82,000 electric vehicles in in 2021 because a defect in the lithium-ion batteries could cause them to spontaneously start burning even when the vehicles were parked.

Last year, owners of nearly 500,000 Kia and Hyundai vehicles were, similarly, warned to park their vehicles away from structures because of a risk of fire.

Look...I'm trying to tell the guy his car is on a recall list. It's a potentially dangerous defect. Hyundai has had this problem with EVs in the past. I don't know if the charging/battery problem in ionics is limited to battery degrading or not....and let's be honest, neither do you.

I'm not telling anyone not to buy EVs just because I don't think they're a good buy. If you do....go nuts. I just don't want this thing burning his home down and hurting anyone....or even just losing all its value before its 2 year warranty is up.

I'm sure that ice cars have a much more significant history of burning. They've been on roads for 100 years after all.

What I've never seen?

FEMA and the US highway association seem pretty reliable.

I suppose that the upside is that the speed of explosion and 5 times the heat means you don't have to worry about replacing your car once it detonates....you'll be dead.

Honestly though...I'm not interested in removing market choice. You want to buy a bomb to drive around....go for it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'm sorry, let's do something closer to an equivalent comparison.

The Tesla Model 3 Long Range is $44K (prior to federal credit), it has an EPA rated combined range of 358 miles -- it gets 131 MPGe combined, 134 MPGe city, and 126 MPGe highway; using motors that total 394 hp and 277 lb. ft. of torque. I won't argue that Tesla cars typically can't quite get their EPA rated range, it appears most testers claim that the actual range is between 10 and 13% lower -- so we round that off at about 320 miles that it will actually go in combined mileage.

As far as I know, the EPA rating is without AC, radio, wipers, and all the other electrics that suck power from your battery. 220 is the realistic number.

I can try to find the same site....but it's for charting EV trips on the highway. The 2024 tesla3 can reach a city 120 miles away from where I'm at starting with a full charge and ending with 10-15% according to the site. I think 220 is pretty generous.

The equivalent Honda Civic would be the Type R. It doesn't quite have the power of the Tesla but comes closest, at 315 HP and 310 lb.-ft of torque.

Sure...but if HP is what you're after buy a Bugatti.

The EPA rates the fuel economy of the Type R at 24 mpg combined, 22 city, and 28 highway, with a total range of 298 miles. It also costs $44K.

I have no idea what model you're looking at....but I looked at a base model civic....and a base model tesla. That's the comparison....base models.

So, no, your example, if we actually use something that is closer to being equivalent, is not cheaper nor does it have more range.

No...you're missing the point. The comparison of a modern electric printer and a mimeograph machine was ridiculous. The EVs aren't some great leap forward in efficiency or quality. Calling them an improvement is even a stretch.