Mary was a good person and had a sinful nature like all of us.

[BeyondET]

His Father "was not of this world".

DNA is a composite of both Father and mother.

I don't see anyway around it.

DNA is a human thing, and Jesus was born a man. Imo the uterus lining thats discarded like dirt a source.

 

[BobRyan]

DNA is a human thing, and Jesus was born a man.

Agreed - and the Father in the case of Christ was not from Earth.

When you see someone - what you can evaluate is the person's actual DNA..

 

[BobRyan]

Maybe they didn't need to because it was common knowledge.

JoeT

That is like saying no Catholics mention it today because for them it is common knowledge. (we know that is not the case)
It would be like saying "the virgin birth, bodily resurrection of Christ was never mentioned in the bible because among Christians it was common knowledge".

If the argument is that the immaculate conception was of so little consequence that it did not even merit honorable mention, or if the "Mary mother of God" idea was of so little consequence that in all the references to Mary in the gospel accounts - no one mentions it even once -- then it is very different from the way it is brought to the front in modern times.

 

[BobRyan]

Before we go much further please tell me what "sin nature" is and how we were made evil. Why did God find Adam and Eve culpable of being evil after He made them evil.

God did not "make them evil". God made them without a sin nature. By choosing sin - they took the sin nature upon themselves.

The result is Rom 3:9-18

 

[BeyondET]

Agreed - and the Father in the case of Christ was not from Earth.

When you see someone - what you can evaluate is the person's actual DNA..

Spirit doesn't have DNA, that is flesh only. And the reason the body died on the cross

 

[Clare73]

Before we go much further please tell me what "sin nature" is and how we were made evil.

You will find it presented in Ro 7 (v.23).
The NT calls it "the flesh," as opposed to the (Holy) Spirit.
We inherit it from Adam who corrupted the sinlessness in which he was created.

Why did God find Adam and Eve culpable of being evil after He made them evil.

God made Adam and Eve sinless, with a completely free will able to choose obedience or disobedience.
Their choice of sin ripped the fabric of the entire Universe, causing spiritual death (deprivation of divine eternal life) as well as natural death and decay throughout all creation.

Just to be clear we are talking about the same thing, nature is the innate common attributes all men have. Nature is "The essence of a being considered as the principle of activity."

Nature is how God created us. Men had nothing to do with it.

Man had nothing to do with its creation, and everything to do with its corruption and sinfulness (refusing to submit to God in all things), for which the penalty is both spiritual death and physical death (Ge 2:17)--"Dying, you shall die."

There is nothing in Sacred Scripture that says she wasn't, and everything to say she was sinless.

There is Ro 3:10, 23, 11:32, Gal 3:22, etc. to say that all mankind was sinful.
Nowhere in Scripture is she exempt from the human condition (sinful nature) inherited from Adam.
That is a doctrine of man, which is contrary to the doctrines of the NT.

Mary's legacy to us magnifies the Lord, literally. It is through her we see the “Real Presence” of our Lord. We see that Mary overshadowed by the God, her spiritual spouse. Christ’s conception is miraculously without original sin, thus the “seed of man". It was Mary’s immaculate soul and most perfect flesh (without original sin - thus a New Eve) which Christ bore. We can't say that it was God's flesh that he bore else he would not be man and we know Christ to be wholly God and wholly man uniquely and inseparable joined. Further, as mother of the Lord, she becomes by right of motherhood, queen mother of her Lord, [Apocalypse of St. John 11:19]. This role can only rightly be taken by Mary who intercedes for the citizens of the Kingdom of God. Mary is the only figure in Scripture addressed by an emissary of God, "Hail Mary" receiving foreknowledge that her yet to be conceived Son is God. God's emissary's words are spoken as if addressing a queen, “Hail”. This is the language seen in the courts of kings and queens. Then Gabriel goes on to say of Mary, “kecharitomene”. This Greek word is translated as “most favored or highly favored” and from the traditional Latin translation to English “full of grace“ or in Latin “gratia plena”.

What it means however is that the woman being hailed is “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." [Blass and DeBrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature].
That's one of two interpretations I'm aware of. What difference does it make? She remains “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace."

Making her no different than all those in Christ (Eph 1:6, where the same verb is used of them--"completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace").

And He is adored as Father Abraham by Jews and Christians alike.

Only God is adored (worshiped).
All others are venerated.

St. Paul is indeed discussing our nature in this verse but the nature of sin.

Our nature is sinful, inclined to prefer self over God.

Sin is a voluntary immoral word, act or desire. These are acts contrary to the laws of reason. We aren't unthinking animals, God made us rational beings. The result is not only corruption to death, sin therefore elicits disordered desire, a loss of original justice.

St. Thomas Aquinas discusses, posited law, Eternal law Divine law, natural law, human law, Divine law, Divine law, and law of sin. I'd be happy to discuss them.

Where law of sin refers to the human sinful nature, where inclination to sin operates as a law.

 

[JoeT]

Interesting that no early Christian that actually wrote scripture - ever said that in an actual text of scripture.

Certainly a "detail" of that magnitude would be important enough to at the very least - make "honorable mention" in a text of scripture.

In fact she was given "honorable mention" in scripture, maybe a bit more then a simply 'honorable", a royal mention. An envoy from God, "hailed" Mary like one does did in the courts of kings and queen. Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. [Luke 1:28-30]. In Greek Gabriel starts off saying “chaire, kecharitomene”. Chaire means "hail" in English. This is language usually exclusive to addressing royalty. Continuing in Greek Gabriel says kecharitomene, poorly translated as "full of grace". I say poorly translates because it fails to convey the full importance of the greeting. “Kecharitomene” is taken as a noun, vocative case, singular, feminine case. She is being addressed royally which is this thing "kecharitomene" by God's envoy. The angel identifies Mary as “full of grace” actuality obtained in the past and is still full in the present, and continuing in grace in the future. Consiquently, “kecharitomene” is better translated from Greek as the person who is “most favored or highly favored with grace”. “Kecharitomene” means is that the woman being addressed is the state of being “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." [Blass and DeBrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature]. But let’s not forget the words that precede, “Hail”. God's emissary's words are spoken as if addressing a queen, “Hail”.

Scripture is much more friendly than the ink on paper would seem to be able to convey. And there is much more. Stay tuned.

JoeT

 

[Clare73]

In fact she was given "honorable mention" in scripture, maybe a bit more then a simply 'honorable", a royal mention. An envoy from God, "hailed" Mary like one does did in the courts of kings and queen. Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. [Luke 1:28-30]. In Greek Gabriel starts off saying “chaire, kecharitomene”. Chaire means "hail" in English. This is language usually exclusive to addressing royalty. Continuing in Greek Gabriel says kecharitomene, poorly translated as "full of grace". I say poorly translates because it fails to convey the full importance of the greeting. “Kecharitomene” is taken as a noun, vocative case, singular, feminine case. She is being addressed royally which is this thing "kecharitomene" by God's envoy. The angel identifies Mary as “full of grace” actuality obtained in the past and is still full in the present, and continuing in grace in the future. Consiquently, “kecharitomene” is better translated from Greek as the person who is “most favored or highly favored with grace”. “Kecharitomene” means is that the woman being addressed is the state of being “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." [Blass and DeBrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature]. But let’s not forget the words that precede, “Hail”. God's emissary's words are spoken as if addressing a queen, “Hail”.
Scripture is much more friendly than the ink on paper would seem to be able to convey. And there is much more. Stay tuned.

Actually, "hail" is a greeting used by Jesus to the disciples after his resurrection (Mt 28:9),
as well as a salutation used by the enemies of Christ to mock him (Mt 26:49, 27:29, Mk 15:18, Jn 19:13),

 

[Clare73]

"Mary was a good person and had a sinful nature like all of us." - the same could be said of Stephen.

Keeping in mind that Jesus said no one was good but God (Mk 10:18).

Would there be a Gospel without Noah? Without Abraham, Shem ?

Well, let's cut to the chase.

Would there be a gospel without Adam?

 

[JoeT]

Interesting that no early Christian that actually wrote scripture - ever said that in an actual text of scripture.

Certainly a "detail" of that magnitude would be important enough to at the very least - make "honorable mention" in a text of scripture.

In fact she was given "honorable mention" in scripture, maybe a bit more then a simply 'honorable", a royal mention. An envoy from God, "hailed" Mary like one does did in the courts of kings and queen. He said,

God did not "make them evil". God made them without a sin nature. By choosing sin - they took the sin nature upon themselves.

The result is Rom 3:9-18

We aren't told in Scripture that man was "re-made". Mankind has the same nature as Adam and Eve, albeit hampered from a lack of original justice. Original Justice is Adam and Eve's state of being before the fall. "It was the simultaneous possession of sanctifying grace, with its right to enter heaven, and the preternatural gifts. Had Adam not sinned, original justice would have been transmitted to all his descendants."

We bear the guilt and the punishment of original sin, as an adult or as an infant simply because we are progeny of Adam. The original justice accompanying Adam's creation was a moral quality or habit that perfectly joined the will of Adam to an enlightened understanding of the will of God. This grace inexplicably joined to the other cardinal virtues, justice gives the rights to honorable prudence, temperance, and fortitude in moral acts. Prior to his original act of rebellion it could be said Adam 'abides' in God, much like we are invited to abide in Christ partaking in the Eucharist. [Cf. John 6:57]. The punishment of original sin is something lacking from the original justice that once belonged to the patriarch of all men and something we would have rightly inherited had it not been for one man’s sin. Prior to the fall, Adam stood before God as a just man. The original man was created with a soul that was perfectly joined to the intellect and perfectly united with the will of God, overflowing the knowledge of truth; the intellect functioned in the light of God's will disciplining the lower appetites through reason alone. However, because of his unjust act we bear the just punishment for the sin of one man.

Justification, "the sanctification of the whole being" [Cf. CCC 1995] is received in Baptism as an effect of grace, re-introducing man to the mercy of God, weakening the original privation of justice whereby a new man is 'born again' into the “rectitude of divine love”. [Cf. CCC 1991].

The way God punished man for a voluntary immoral deed was to remove His justice. The punishment for the original sin is a privation of an original justice Adam once held for himself and his progeny. No longer joined with the will of God, no longer would cardinal virtues, justice giving rights to honorable prudence, temperance, and fortitude in moral acts. Now mankind is hampered with disordered desires, concupiscence. Mankind was not re-made again nor was he originally mad evil.

Romans 3:9-18 does not make man evil, you've simply misunderstood what St. Paul is saying. St. Thomas Aquinas explains it this way.

271. After showing the Jews’ advantage over the Gentiles so far as God’s blessings are concerned [n. 248], the Apostle now rejects their vainglory, by which they preferred themselves to Gentiles converted to the faith. First, he states his point; secondly, be proves it, there [v. 9b; n. 274] at For we have charged. 272. First, therefore, he says: I have asked what advantage has the Jew. The first is that God’s words were delivered to them. What then shall we Jews say to converts to 141 the faith? Are we Jews any better off than Gentiles converted to the faith? For this was a matter discussed among them: "A dispute also rose among them, which of them was to be regarded as the greatest" (Lk 23:24). He answers this when he says, No, not at all. 273. But this seems to be at variance with an earlier statement (v. 2), which said that their advantage was much in every way. The gloss [of Lombard, col. 1356] explains that in the first statement the Apostle was thinking of the Jews in the time of the Law, but now he is speaking of the time of grace because, as is written in Col (3:11): "In Christ there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised," since these make no difference so far as the state of grace is concerned. But this explanation does not seem to be altogether in keeping with the Apostle’s intention, because later he will show that even while they were under the Law, they were under the power of sin, just as the Gentiles were, and even more so: "This is Jerusalem; I have set her in the center of the nations, with countries round about her. And she has wickedly rebelled against my ordinances and become more wicked than these countries" (Ez 5:5). Hence, it seems that above he was showing the excellence of God’s blessings; consequently, he did not say that the Jew was more excellent, but that something greater had been conferred on the Jew. Here he is rejecting the notion that they are excellent persons, because in spite of receiving God’s blessings they did not use them properly. 274. Then when he says For we have charged (v. 9b) he establishes his points: first, that the Jews do not excel the Gentiles so far as the state of sin is concerned; 142 secondly, so far as the state of justice is concerned, there [v. 2; n. 299] at But now apart from the law. He establishes the first in two ways: first, from what has been stated above; secondly, from an authority, there [v. 10; n. 176] at As it is written. 275. First, therefore, he says: We have already charged, i.e., we have supported with reasons, that Jews and Greeks, i.e., Gentiles, are all under the power of sin: "From the sole of the foot even to the head there is no soundness in him" (Is 1:6). For he showed, first of all, that the Gentiles suppressed the truth they knew by their wickedness and unrighteousness; secondly, that the Jews, after receiving the Law, dishonored God by transgressing it. . . . Consequently, the Law is not enough to make one just; another remedy is needed to suppress concupiscence. [Thomas Aquinas, on Romans 3:9]​

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

Actually, "hail" is a greeting used by Jesus to the disciples after his resurrection (Mt 28:9),
as well as a salutation used by his enemies to mock Christ (Mt 26:49, 27:29, Mk 15:18, Jn 19:13),

Why, yes, Hail was said of Christ our Lord. Jesus Christ was addressed with "Hail". And so too was Mary. You did mean John 19:3 didn't you?

 

[JoeT]

His Father "was not of this world".

DNA is a composite of both Father and mother.

I don't see anyway around it.

I don't either.

I contend that God acted both spiritually and naturally in His joining with flesh. Then, through Mary He exhibits His divinity so you might know Him as Brother even in blindness. Jesus Christ is not a created being; He is not a man possessed by a ‘spirit’ of God; nor can we say that Jesus Christ is simply just a good guy who took on the sins of the world – rather we identify Him as having a unique and inseparable nature of God and man, without mignling, mixing, or confusion.

Given that Christ is, 'begotten,' not 'created,' and is human in every way except sin. Maybe the Protestant god does but, the Christian God does not create other gods and demigods like the pantheon of Greek or Roman gods. Rather the Catholic God is One.

Christ is a human being to the very core, from His very conception, existing even to this very movement; He is one of us. Christ is also God who IS the PERSONIFICATION OF LIFE, and the creator of all life. No life exists unless our God wills it. We conclude then those two inseparable natures are found in the essence of Jesus the Second Person of God, Divine and human.

For we have not a high priest [Christ], who cannot have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin. [Hebrews 4:15]​

God spoke and creation came into being. The creator is Logos and the "Logos was with God, and the Logos was God." We know this confounds evil, "And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." [John 1:5]. Those totally blind due to the lack of God’s original justice cannot understand the light, they remain confounded. We are born deprived of original justice, unable to see the light of divinity. It behooves us therefore to 'know' the nature of our savior and in whom that nature resides. Accordingly, to 'know' Christ is necessarily to have faith; in fact it is the fundamental part of what we call faith, to know what is not seen in the hope of obtaining.

The personification of human life starts at conception. The male role in procreation merely delivers the 'spark of life' - nothing more. This is the sole function of male in creating a new human life. No genetic material remains with the embryo. The 'spark' starts the generative division of cells forming the child from a single cell of the mother's flesh. Eventually it forms a wholly individual rational being from a single embryo based on its DNA map, body, and soul. The resulting life is literally the flesh of its mother. The child's veins are filled with blood generated within him; there is no transfer of blood from the mother to the child.

The incarnate Christ, being wholly human as well as God, is begotten in this same way, thus not made. Remember He is just like us in every way. God provided the spark of life necessary to generate Life, that life was the Personification of His Wisdom (the Logos) perfectly joined with flesh of Mary. In Christ, God and man are inexplicably joined in a perfect unity just as we will be joined in a perfect unity with God. As Christ is the Personification of 'Life', the blood of the Christ Child is the blood of eternal life. The Person of Christ found in Mary is filled with the living grace, hence Mary is most literally “full of Grace”.

Consider this, science identifies fetomaternal cells trafficking throughout the body in all childbearing women. The child’s cell carries DNA as it migrates through the walls of the womb lodging in the body of the mother. In some cases, these cells live for months, in other cases several years, but like all human life these cells eventually die. In a similar manner the fetomaternal microchimerism found in Mary would track Eternal Life through her body igniting a spiritual life wholly and completely blessing the mother. Unlike the cells of the human child having original sin, they are doomed to corruption, the fetal chimerism of Christ is eternal is without corruption. We can easily see the physical parallel fetal chimerism of cells in Mary as Christ’s DNA of divinity will never die. Through her entire life the Mother of Life carried Christ with cells of the Personification Life and grace. They move through Mary's entire person, body, and soul eternally.

If you want to say Christ is placed in a balloon inside Mary’s womb, like a bubble baby, or molded her flesh into Christ we need to contend with the absurdity that god created God and placed His newly created god into the womb of a woman. Instead of being the 'begotten' son as all humans Jesus becomes a Mafia equivalent, a made man. Christ was begotten as all humans [Cf. Hebrews 4:15], with the initial 'spark of life'; one of God's seminal mysteries.

Hence, we find that Mary bearing Life and grace itself and must, by the will of God, have been immaculate. Life and death, good and evil cannot both exist in one body and enter heaven [Matthew 5:20]. Mary then becomes like the Ark of Noa, bearing life. Simultaneously she is the Ark of Moses carrying Divine Life and the New Covenant.

JoeT

 

[Clare73]

Why, yes, Hail was said of Christ our Lord. Jesus Christ was addressed with "Hail".

Jesus was mocked with "Hail!"

And so too was Mary.

And as were the disciples (Mt 28:9).

You did mean John 19:3 didn't you?

Indeed, I did.

 

[JoeT]

Jesus was mocked with "Hail!"

And as were the disciples (Mt 28:9).

Indeed, I did.

Nevertheless, my point is valid, 'hail' was, and is, indeed meant for royal persons or high ranking people. It's still used today either to mock or to lift one above his status in life.

**added** Using 'hail' in mockery, then would you propose God sent Gabriel to mock Mary? It doesn't seem to connect.

JoeT

 

[Clare73]

Nevertheless, my point is valid, 'hail' was, and is, indeed meant for royal persons or high ranking people. It's still used today either to mock or to lift one above his status in life.

**added** Using 'hail' in mockery, then would you propose God sent Gabriel to mock Mary? It doesn't seem to connect.

JoeT

I am simply reporting the use of the word in the NT. It did not refer to sinlessness.
It's range was broad, including to the disciples (Mt 28:9) who also were not sinless.

 

[JoeT]

I am simply reporting the use of the word in the NT. It did not refer to sinlessness.
It's range was broad, including the disciples who also were not sinless.

I haven't mention Mary's sinlessness to date. Yet we hold that throughout her life and in conception she was protected from sin in a singular grace - one that is “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." What we receive in Baptism, Mary receives justification at conception. Sin never touches her.

“We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”

JoeT

 

[BobRyan]

I don't either.

I contend that God acted both spiritually and naturally in His joining with flesh. Then, through Mary He exhibits His divinity

not through Mary. Nothing about Mary was divine. In His humanity he demonstrates His divinity by His works.

so you might know Him as Brother even in blindness.

Jesus was not blind

Jesus Christ is not a created being; He is not a man possessed by a ‘spirit’ of God; nor can we say that Jesus Christ is simply just a good guy who took on the sins of the world – rather we identify Him as having a unique and inseparable nature of God and man, without mignling, mixing, or confusion.

That much is true.

Given that Christ is, 'begotten,' not 'created,' and is human in every way except sin.

more than that... He is incarnate God rather than human reproduction God. He is God incarnate in human flesh so God can say at His birth "today have I begotten Thee".

Heb 1:5
For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”?


Specifically speaking of Christ's resurrection in Acts 13.

Acts 13:33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘You are My Son; today i have begotten You.’

Maybe the Protestant god does but, the Christian God does not create other gods

No such thing.

Christ is a human being to the very core

Fully human, fully divine

UNLIKE any other human born on Earth or even Adam who was "created on Earth" rather than "born"

For we have not a high priest [Christ], who cannot have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin. [Hebrews 4:15]​

God spoke and creation came into being.

True.

Man did not "evolve" rather God "spoke" ant it was - He commanded and it stood fast.

The creator is Logos and the "Logos was with God, and the Logos was God."

yep

The personification of human life starts at conception. The male role in procreation merely delivers the 'spark of life' - nothing more.

Not at all true.

both the sperm and egg are haploid living cells that are "alive" even before they join into one diploid cell.

This is the sole function of male in creating a new human life. No genetic material remains with the embryo.

You have to be kidding.

You do know about "mitochondrial Eve" and "y-Chromosome Adam" right?

 

[BobRyan]

Spirit doesn't have DNA, that is flesh only. And the reason the body died on the cross

God Himself provided the DNA that would be needed since Mary only had haploid cells for that.

 

[BobRyan]

The early Christians understood Holy Scripture and understood Mary was without sin:

Interesting that no early Christian that actually wrote scripture - ever said that "Mary was without sin" or that "Mary was the mother of God" in an actual text of scripture.

Certainly a "detail" of that magnitude would be important enough to at the very least - make "honorable mention" in a text of scripture.

In fact she was given "honorable mention" in scripture, maybe a bit more then a simply 'honorable", a royal mention.

The statement in my post was not that "Mary did not get even honorable mention" in scripture. It is specific to the wild claims "Mary sinless from birth" and "Mary sinless like God" and "Mary mother of God" -- none of that ever stated by anyone who knew her and wrote scripture or knew someone that wrote scripture.

An envoy from God, "hailed" Mary like one does did in the courts of kings and queen.

Fine - but he did not say "Mary mother of God" or "Mary sinless like God" or "Mary sinless from birth" or any other thing that would lead the reader down such a road.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

God did not "make them evil". God made them without a sin nature. By choosing sin - they took the sin nature upon themselves.

The result is Rom 3:9-18

We aren't told in Scripture that man was "re-made". Mankind has the same nature as Adam and Eve, albeit hampered from a lack of original justice.

No "original justice" statement in all of scripture.

Rather we have the sinful nature, depraved ... a bent toward sin.

God did not have to "create Adam dead" for Adam to die. Breaking what God gave them - was entirely in their own power.,

The sinful nature is as Rom 3 states (as noted above ... interesting you are not even looking at it in your response)

Rom 3:
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written,

“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Also noted in Rom 8 for the one who is not born again.

Rom 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Original Justice is Adam and Eve's state of being before the fall.

Actually sinless -- is the nature of man before the fall.

We bear the guilt and the punishment of original sin, as an adult

We have a sinful nature as Romans 8 and Rom 3 states - a "bent" toward sin and rebellion such that "we DO NOT submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN we".

It takes the New Birth to enable man to obey God's Word.

It takes the supernatural "drawing of all mankind" in John 12:32 to enable man to CHOOSE to accept the new birth.