Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

[tonychanyt]

I have formulated a problem for you to solve. Is p3 true?

I don't know.

creationists claim that p3 is false.

Reference?

 

[davetaff]

Surely you mean Adam's seed as Adam didn't die in the flood & God chose Noah & his family as they were the only ones who's DNA was still in tact.

Were Adam and Eve alive when the flood of Noah came?​

Quora
https://www.quora.com › Were-Adam-and-Eve-alive-w...



30 Jun 2023 — No! Adam died long before Noah's flood. Adam lived 930 years and he died (Genesis 5:5). Noah was a son of Lamech.

Hi apple eye thank you for your reply no I did not mean adams seed I meant Adam the Man God created in his image he would have bean created in the same way as the last Adam Jesus Christ and we know he was a whole multitude of people who stood before the throne of God the man Adam died when he was 930 as stated but like I keep saying Man in the image of God is something very different the first and last Adam were created in the same way

Love and Peace
Dave

 

[tonychanyt]

Wow, how many ways can you invent to twist the meaning of plain ordinary words.

Please explain how I twisted the meaning of what words.

Let's see if you twist what the English Dictionary meaning of the word. "Created" Having come into being as the result of action or someone's creative process.

Right.

Notice there's nothing there to support the scientific theory of everything coming into existence from nothing.

Right.

Creation needs a Creator period, this fact cannot be twisted

Exactly, my point.

So please explain how I twisted the meaning of what words.

 

[Apple Sky]

Man in the image of God is something very different the first and last Adam were created in the same way

Help me out here.....Who are the first & the last Adam ?

 

[davetaff]

Help me out here.....Who are the first & the last Adam ?

Hi apple eye thank you for your reply maybe Gods word will answer your question

Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

I hope this helps the first Adam God created before the flood the last Adam is Jesus Christ our Lord.

Love and Peace
Dave

 

[olgamc]

Hi apple eye thank you for your reply no I did not mean adams seed I meant Adam the Man God created in his image he would have bean created in the same way as the last Adam Jesus Christ and we know he was a whole multitude of people who stood before the throne of God the man Adam died when he was 930 as stated but like I keep saying Man in the image of God is something very different the first and last Adam were created in the same way

Love and Peace
Dave

So if physical Adam is a man, but spiritual Adam or spiritual Noah or spiritual Abraham are all of us, then spiritual Jesus is all of us? That’s not right at all. I must be misunderstanding what you are saying.

 

[olgamc]

Hi apple eye thank you for your reply maybe Gods word will answer your question

Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

I hope this helps the first Adam God created before the flood the last Adam is Jesus Christ our Lord.

Love and Peace
Dave

Right, so this is addressing the question that someone at the time raised about resurrection. Someone said how is resurrection possible, where would the body come from? And Paul is saying oh don’t worry, God will give you a spiritual body. What does that have to do with creation? I am confused.

 

[olgamc]

Reference?

The movie that was posted by Dan1988 earlier.

Starting with 39:42 - "Too often scientists may believe that information can be generated by physical processes and that simply is not true. Functional information cannot be generated from purely physical properties."

39:59 - "functional information has never been observed to arise purely by physical interactions"

So it appears that they are making a leap from "has never been observed" to "cannot happen". Which is a logical fallacy that they themselves accuse the scientists of making. (Actually they say that scientists make a leap from could have happened and therefore did happen. But they are making a leap from did not happen therefore could not have happened.)

But I want to know, when they say "that is simply not true" - has that been proven? Or am I correct to think that they are making a logical error, and that they need to correct that error before accusing the atheistic scientists of the same error?

 

[Job 33:6]

The Bible doesn't say that Adam was the first man made in God's image. It says that humanity was made in God's image. That's all of us.

Sin entered the world, that is all of creation (even if Moses didn't know that earth was a sphere).
.
Jesus saves all sinners that are in relationship with Him.
.
God created humanity in His image, not just some of us.

Through Adam, sin entered the. World and death through sin. No human being is separate from sin.

And no, I don't see what you mean. I mean this in the nicest way that I can say it. I think your theology is all over the place and it's a little hard to follow. So I'll just try to explain:

God created humanity in His image. Not just Adam and Eve.

Through Adam, sin entered the world. That's everything, all of creation, even if Moses didn't know of native Americans.

And because sin entered the world, all of mankind is subject to sin.
.
If people lived and died before Adam, they were not subject to sin because sin had not entered the world.

So Adams grandma, if she died before Adam sinned, she wouldn't be held accountable for her actions no more would a fish in the water or any other living thing.

And we do not need to be biological offspring of Adam to sin. Sin spreads supernaturally from creation to all of mankind. Just as we do not need to be a biological child of Jesus to be saved.

@olgamc

I should rephrase. I didn't mean to say that you're theology was messy. What I meant was, maybe my ability to explain my position was causing some messiness in your responses to me. But hopefully the above posts help clarify.

 

[olgamc]

God created humanity in God's image. Not just Adam and Eve. Genesis 1 is not talking about Adam and Eve.

Oh I see what you mean. I'll correct myself. Adam and Eve are the first priestly elect, instructed to work and keep Gods holy space, Eden. That's the holy space of God's creation.

Humanity more broadly was to subdue and rule.

Sorry for the confusion there, hope that helps.

All of humanity was created in God's image. That's everyone. Inside and outside of Eden. Every person before or after Adam. Every single human being. No exceptions. All of us, for all time. All people of all nations. Including Adams grandmother if she was still alive.

Remember that the Bible isn't a biology text book. God can create something supernatural, without needing to form it out of clay. God can give humanity a divine status, regardless of if they are physically already existent or not.


I'll put it this way. There's a passage where the psalmist asks God to create in him a clean heart. So is the psalmist asking God to do heart surgery? No. Creation doesn't have to be a biological or material thing. So when God creates humanity in His image, it's not about biology. It's not about anatomy. It's not about genetics or geneologies.

Imago dei is a supernatural status. It is not bound by physical material limits.

Interesting. I'll have to think about this.

But still, back not to the original question, but to my question that was spurred during this discussion - if you and I have different interpretations currently, does this mean that one of us is right and the other is wrong? Or can we both be right? Or can we both be wrong? And can we agree to disagree because after all this is what we think, but we don't know for sure?

Just to make sure we are on the same page, you believe that Adam's physical body was created by God from a one cell organism through a God-created process called evolution. And therefore Adam was not the first human. Correct? And I believe that Adam's physical body was created by God from dust, but I don't know how or by what process, and that he is the first human. And by human we mean homo sapiens, made in God's image, with a soul, told to fill the entire globe and govern all of the flora and fauna.

 

[olgamc]

The Bible doesn't say that Adam was the first man made in God's image. It says that humanity was made in God's image. That's all of us.

Sin entered the world, that is all of creation (even if Moses didn't know that earth was a sphere).
.
Jesus saves all sinners that are in relationship with Him.
.
God created humanity in His image, not just some of us.

Through Adam, sin entered the. World and death through sin. No human being is separate from sin.

And no, I don't see what you mean. I mean this in the nicest way that I can say it. I think your theology is all over the place and it's a little hard to follow. So I'll just try to explain:

God created humanity in His image. Not just Adam and Eve.

Through Adam, sin entered the world. That's everything, all of creation, even if Moses didn't know of native Americans.

And because sin entered the world, all of mankind is subject to sin.
.
If people lived and died before Adam, they were not subject to sin because sin had not entered the world.

So Adams grandma, if she died before Adam sinned, she wouldn't be held accountable for her actions no more would a fish in the water or any other living thing.

And we do not need to be biological offspring of Adam to sin. Sin spreads supernaturally from creation to all of mankind. Just as we do not need to be a biological child of Jesus to be saved.

Ok wait, but that would mean that Adam's grandma would not have died until after sin entered the world and with sin death. ?

No, it's ok, I didn't take offense. I find your theology "messy" too. LOL It's not messy, it's just that we are both coming from a different perspective, and our brains are finding it hard to deal with.

I think that all of this stems from this: in my opinion chapter 2 elaborates on chapter 1 day 6. And in your opinion it's not the same story at all, it happens some time after chapter 1 day 6. This is why we are having difficulty understanding each other.

But the main question remains - can you be a Christian and believe in evolution. And you and I would both say you can be a Christian and believe in aspects of evolution, yes. So we are good.

 

[Job 33:6]

Interesting. I'll have to think about this.

But still, back not to the original question, but to my question that was spurred during this discussion - if you and I have different interpretations currently, does this mean that one of us is right and the other is wrong? Or can we both be right? Or can we both be wrong? And can we agree to disagree because after all this is what we think, but we don't know for sure?

Just to make sure we are on the same page, you believe that Adam's physical body was created by God from a one cell organism through a God-created process called evolution. And therefore Adam was not the first human. Correct? And I believe that Adam's physical body was created by God from dust, but I don't know how or by what process, and that he is the first human. And by human we mean homo sapiens, made in God's image, with a soul, told to fill the entire globe and govern all of the flora and fauna.

Well, I think that there was only one original meaning to any given passage. So I don't think two different opinions can both be right. But realistically, the subject is so complicated that we are probably both wrong in some areas.

Some things I think are known. Others are not. Like I would consider things like a local flood known for various reasons related to scientific evidence. Or imago dei being a status. Historical records of the ancient near east have the image of God identified as a status moreso than something anatomical.

But most things I would agree to disagree on because there are so many unknowns.

I believe that God made Adam of dust as well as believing that Adam was made through evolution. These are not mutually exclusive terms. Abraham was made of dust in the Bible as well, and the psalmist tells us that all of mankind is dust. So I don't see this as a scientific statement. It's a theological statement, and thus the concept of being made of dust does not contradict evolution.

In which case, both positions would be correct.

 

[Job 33:6]

Ok wait, but that would mean that Adam's grandma would not have died until after sin entered the world and with sin death. ?

No, it's ok, I didn't take offense. I find your theology "messy" too. LOL It's not messy, it's just that we are both coming from a different perspective, and our brains are finding it hard to deal with.

I think that all of this stems from this: in my opinion chapter 2 elaborates on chapter 1 day 6. And in your opinion it's not the same story at all, it happens some time after chapter 1 day 6. This is why we are having difficulty understanding each other.

But the main question remains - can you be a Christian and believe in evolution. And you and I would both say you can be a Christian and believe in aspects of evolution, yes. So we are good.

I would say that the death referred to in Romans 5 is a spiritual death. Not physical. And so it's ok if Adams mother died before sin entered the world. So long as it's a natural death and not spiritual death. I don't think that Adams grandma could experience a spiritual death before the fall because sin had not yet entered the world and [spiritual] death through sin.

Here are some passages related to people made of dust in the Bible.

And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the breath returns to God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12:7

For he knows our frame. He remembers that we are dust.
Psalms 103:14

You hide your face, they are terrified. You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.
Psalms 104:29

By the sweat of your brow you shall eat bread, until your return to the ground. For from it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”
Genesis 3:19

Remember that you fashioned me like clay; and will you turn me to dust again?
Job 10:9

Then Abraham answered and said, “Look, please, I was bold to speak to my Lord, but I am dust and ashes.
Genesis 18:27

Your descendants shall be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west, and to the east, and to the north and to the south. And all the families of the earth will be blessed through you and through your descendants.
Genesis 28:14

Because everyone is made of dust, including you and me, I wouldn't see this as excluding the potential for us to have evolved.

 

[Job 33:6]

Ok wait, but that would mean that Adam's grandma would not have died until after sin entered the world and with sin death. ?

No, it's ok, I didn't take offense. I find your theology "messy" too. LOL It's not messy, it's just that we are both coming from a different perspective, and our brains are finding it hard to deal with.

I think that all of this stems from this: in my opinion chapter 2 elaborates on chapter 1 day 6. And in your opinion it's not the same story at all, it happens some time after chapter 1 day 6. This is why we are having difficulty understanding each other.

But the main question remains - can you be a Christian and believe in evolution. And you and I would both say you can be a Christian and believe in aspects of evolution, yes. So we are good.

I think that evolution can be fully accepted by Christians. Not just aspects, but the full package.

 

[tonychanyt]

The movie that was posted by Dan1988 earlier.

Starting with 39:42 - "Too often scientists may believe that information can be generated by physical processes

Because of the word "may". This is a very weak claim and it is not a propositional claim.

and that simply is not true.

The movie jumps to a conclusion.

Functional information cannot be generated from purely physical properties."

The movie needs to define physical properties.

39:59 - "functional information has never been observed to arise purely by physical interactions"

What do they mean by "physical interactions"?

So it appears that they are making a leap from "has never been observed" to "cannot happen". Which is a logical fallacy that they themselves accuse the scientists of making. (Actually they say that scientists make a leap from could have happened and therefore did happen. But they are making a leap from did not happen therefore could not have happened.)

I would avoid this kind of movie to provide a formal argumentation. I would stick to more scholarly publications.

But I want to know, when they say "that is simply not true" - has that been proven?

According to First-Order Logic, one does not prove nor disprove something that may be.

Or am I correct to think that they are making a logical error,

Right, at least a FOL error.

and that they need to correct that error before accusing the atheistic scientists of the same error?

I would not use this kind of movie for argumentation. I prefer to spend my time on more scholarly analyses. But to each his own.

 

[Job 33:6]

Ok wait, but that would mean that Adam's grandma would not have died until after sin entered the world and with sin death. ?

No, it's ok, I didn't take offense. I find your theology "messy" too. LOL It's not messy, it's just that we are both coming from a different perspective, and our brains are finding it hard to deal with.

I think that all of this stems from this: in my opinion chapter 2 elaborates on chapter 1 day 6. And in your opinion it's not the same story at all, it happens some time after chapter 1 day 6. This is why we are having difficulty understanding each other.

But the main question remains - can you be a Christian and believe in evolution. And you and I would both say you can be a Christian and believe in aspects of evolution, yes. So we are good.

And I think there are contradictions in the view that chapter 2 is about day 6. I mean if we read the text, Adam is created, then birds, trees and animals, then Eve is created. But that's not the order of Genesis 1.

‭‭Genesis 2:9 ESV‬‬
[9] And out of the ground the Lord God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
[18] Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” [19] Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. [20] The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him.


Adam is created. He is lonely. God forms the animals from the ground, brings them to Adam. Adam names them. Adam is still lonely, then God creates Eve.

Also, it says that out of the ground God formed every beast of the field and birds of the heavens. But if it were day 6, God would have already done those things. Birds weren't even made on day 6 in chapter 1.

There are also positives arguments for it being a sequel or continuation of chapter 1. Such as the teledoth formula that separates the chapters. Teledoths signal a temporal continuation of a story. Rather than a retelling.

 

[olgamc]

I think that evolution can be fully accepted by Christians. Not just aspects, but the full package.

Oh I disagree with you there. The full package denies God, or at least God as Creator.

 

[olgamc]

And I think there are contradictions in the view that chapter 2 is about day 6. I mean if we read the text, Adam is created, then birds, trees and animals, then Eve is created. But that's not the order of Genesis 1.

‭‭Genesis 2:9 ESV‬‬
[9] And out of the ground the Lord God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
[18] Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” [19] Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. [20] The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him.


Adam is created. He is lonely. God forms the animals from the ground, brings them to Adam. Adam names them. Adam is still lonely, then God creates Eve.

Also, it says that out of the ground God formed every beast of the field and birds of the heavens. But if it were day 6, God would have already done those things. Birds weren't even made on day 6 in chapter 1.

There are also positives arguments for it being a sequel or continuation of chapter 1. Such as the teledoth formula that separates the chapters. Teledoths signal a temporal continuation of a story. Rather than a retelling.

That’s funny, I don’t read it how you read it.

Chapter 1 - plants are created on day 3, fish and birds on day 5, land animals on day 6, then adam (man or mankind).

Chapter 2:5 - certain plants that God created on day 3 had not yet sprouted because of some environmental factors and also because there was no adam (man/mankind).

2:7 - God creates adam
2:8 - God had planted a garden and made trees grow in the garden. (But trees had already been created, He is just making them grow now)
2:15 - God puts adam in the garden
2:18 - God decides to make a helper for adam
2:19 - God brings all the animals that He had already made to adam to name them and look for a helper (question - if women already existed, why wasn’t there a suitable helper through all of the animal kingdom?)
2:21 - God puts adam to sleep and while adam is sleeping God creates a woman.
2:23-24 - the concept of marriage (question - if the process of becoming one flesh already existed in homo sapiens, why is it introduced now?)

For me there is no inconsistencies the way I read it, except for the problems in brackets which arise from is “adam” one man or the whole mankind? So if this adam is Adam the man, the first man, the father of mankind, then adam can be correctly both Adam and all of us. But if Adam is not the first man, then adam must be mankind and not man.

Chapter 3 answers this because after this man/mankind and his wife sin, in 3:17 God addresses adam as u-le-adam, “the first man” or Adam.

3:20 - Adam names his wife Eve (life) because she is the mother of all the living.
3:22 - God says that adam (man/mankind) has now become like one of Us, so He decides to banish adam from the garden lest he eats from the tree of life and lives forever.

This is how sin and death enter adam (mankind) through Adam (the first man).

Also Eve says after giving birth to Cain in 4:1 “with the help of the Lord I have brought forth a man child”. To me this is significant, and I wonder why this is in the Bible. Is it because she’s done something that has never been done before? I don’t know, but I wonder.

Also 2:4 part that seems to conclude chapter 1 and start a new narrative- I agree with you there, but I disagree that creation of Adam and Eve happens chronologically after day 6. I think chapter 1 is the account or an overview of what God did on each day of creation. Then that thought ends and a new thought begins - the story of the fall. Chapter 2 sets up the stage by going into more detail of day 6. So altogether all the points are chronological - God creates everything (days 1-6), Adam and Eve sin, creation gets cursed, they lose their immortality, then start making kids (chapter 4), and so on.

 

[Job 33:6]

Oh I disagree with you there. The full package denies God, or at least God as Creator.

I don't think the full package denies God. Why do you think that?

 

[Job 33:6]

That’s funny, I don’t read it how you read it.

Chapter 1 - plants are created on day 3, fish and birds on day 5, land animals on day 6, then adam (man or mankind).

Chapter 2:5 - certain plants that God created on day 3 had not yet sprouted because of some environmental factors and also because there was no adam (man/mankind).

2:7 - God creates adam
2:8 - God had planted a garden and made trees grow in the garden. (But trees had already been created, He is just making them grow now)
2:15 - God puts adam in the garden
2:18 - God decides to make a helper for adam
2:19 - God brings all the animals that He had already made to adam to name them and look for a helper.
2:21 - God puts adam to sleep and while adam is sleeping God creates a woman.
2:23-24 - the concept of marriage

For me there is no inconsistencies here, except for the problem of is “adam” one man or the whole mankind? So if this adam is Adam the man, the first man, the father of mankind, then adam can be correctly both Adam and all of us. But if Adam is not the first man, than adam must be mankind and not man.

Chapter 3 answers this because after the man and his wife sin, in 3:17 God addresses adam as u-le-adam, “the first man” or Adam.

3:20 - Adam names his wife Eve (life) because she is the mother of all the living.
3:22 - God says that adam (man/mankind) has now become like one of Us, so He decides to banish adam from the garden lest he eats from the tree of life and lives forever.

This is how sin and death enter adam (mankind) through Adam (the first man).

It doesn't say that God brings in animals from outside the garden. It says that God formed the animals from the ground.

‭‭Genesis 2:18-19 ESV‬‬
[18] Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” [19] Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.

That's why God says "I will make". Not "I will bring the animals I've already made".

‭‭Genesis 2:18-19 NASB2020‬‬
[18] Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” [19] And out of the ground the Lord God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.

I will make him a helper. And so God does.

Also, It logically follows that Adam is still lonely, and so Eve is produced. It doesn't say that Eve is brought in from outside the garden either.

‭‭Genesis 2:20 NASB2020‬‬
[20] The man gave names to all the livestock, and to the birds of the sky, and to every animal of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him.