Propitiation

[zoidar]

Isn’t that what it actually says?

Hm, but there must be a reason he says:

who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
— 1 Timothy 2:4

Why does he say that in this context?

 

[bling]

I have never once indicated that God forces His love on anyone, whatever that even means.

If it is not their free will choice to humbly accept God's charity (Love), than did God make (force) some to accept and not make (force) others to not accept.

 

[Hammster]

If it is not their free will choice to humbly accept God's charity (Love), than did God make (force) some to accept and not make (force) others to not accept.

Everyone God chooses will freely choose Him. Nobody is ever forced.

 

[Hammster]

Hm, but there must be a reason he says:

who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
— 1 Timothy 2:4

Why does he say that in this context?

I’m not sure what your issue is here.

 

[zoidar]

I’m not sure what your issue is here.

Well, the "we" who are to pray to live a tranquil life are already saved and already know the truth, so it seems 1 Tim 2:4 refers to those we pray for, the kings, those in authority, that God desires them to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.

 

[bling]

Everyone God chooses will freely choose Him. Nobody is ever forced.

Acts 17:
27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring,
All people must do the seeking, reaching out and finding, it is not God just selecting some.
God created all humans so in that way they are all children of God, chosen to seek him and in that way not "forced" to be in a select group.

 

[Hammster]

Well, the "we" who are to pray to live a tranquil life are already saved and already know the truth, so it seems 1 Tim 2:4 refers to those we pray for, the kings, those in authority, that God desires them to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.

Okay. Do you think God can save anyone He chooses to save??

 

[Hammster]

Acts 17:
27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring,
All people must do the seeking, reaching out and finding, it is not God just selecting some.
God created all humans so in that way they are all children of God, chosen to seek him and in that way not "forced" to be in a select group.

Is this supposed to be a rebuttal?

 

[bling]

Okay. Do you think God can save anyone He chooses to save??

God wants to and can save everyone, but not everyone is willing to humbly accept God's forgiveness (charity/mercy/help/Love). People who do not like charity (unselfish Godly Love) nor want this Love would not be happy in heaven, so God is not going to force them to be unhappy in heaven.
If God makes/program (forces) people to change and be willing to humbly accept Love, they are a totally different robotically programmed person.

 

[bling]

Is this supposed to be a rebuttal?

These verses show we are all equally children of God, deserving equal opportunity, but not the exact same treatment by God.

 

[Hammster]

God wants to and can save everyone, but not everyone is willing to humbly accept God's forgiveness (charity/mercy/help/Love). People who do not like charity (unselfish Godly Love) nor want this Love would not be happy in heaven, so God is not going to force them to be unhappy in heaven.
If God makes/program (forces) people to change and be willing to humbly accept Love, they are a totally different robotically programmed person.

What do you think is better, being unhappy in heaven, or eternal punishment in hell?

 

[Hammster]

These verses show we are all equally children of God, deserving equal opportunity, but not the exact same treatment by God.

Hmmm.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
— John 1:12-13

 

[bling]

What do you think is better, being unhappy in heaven, or eternal punishment in hell?

There is no such thing as being unhappy in heaven, but just going there does not make you happy (you are still you).
Hell exists to punish the wicked for a time, but afterwards there is a consuming fire and the wicked are not given eternal life.

 

[bling]

Hmmm.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
— John 1:12-13

That verse supports the idea of humans being the one's, who have to "receive him" and not "those who God gave the ability to receive Him". You also have "believe on his name", not "who were made to believe".
Yes, these are born again, by their own choice.

 

[Hammster]

There is no such thing as being unhappy in heaven, but just going there does not make you happy (you are still you).
Hell exists to punish the wicked for a time, but afterwards there is a consuming fire and the wicked are not given eternal life.

Annihilationism isn’t allowed in this forum.

 

[Hammster]

That verse supports the idea of humans being the one's, who have to "receive him" and not "those who God gave the ability to receive Him". You also have "believe on his name", not "who were made to believe".
Yes, these are born again, by their own choice.

John clearly says that those who believe are given the right to become children of God. So those in Acts 17 cannot be children of God. Paul had something else in mind when he said that they were offspring.

 

[Samson2021]

We have been through this many times, God will not force His Love on you like with a shotgun wedding and God holding the shotgun, since the "love" you received would not be Godly type Love. The person has to just be willing to humbly accept pure charity as charity (even if it is motivated by selfish (sinful) motivation). Most people will just not humble themselves to the point of accepting charity.
Godly type Love cannot be placed in people instinctively (robotically) since that is not Godly type Love.

It would seem that Paul would disagree. 1 Ti 1:13-16

 

[bling]

John clearly says that those who believe are given the right to become children of God. So those in Acts 17 cannot be children of God. Paul had something else in mind when he said that they were offspring.

We are a child of God in the sense we are all His offspring. I would say the prodigal son while he was off in the foreign land was not being a child of his earthly father. We might need a better understanding of the different meanings to being a child of God explained by the context.
Do you believe all unborn babies start out as children of satan?

 

[Hammster]

We are a child of God in the sense we are all His offspring. I would say the prodigal son while he was off in the foreign land was not being a child of his earthly father. We might need a better understanding of the different meanings to being a child of God explained by the context.
Do you believe all unborn babies start out as children of satan?

I believe we are born sheep or goats.

 

[Samson2021]

Do you believe all unborn babies start out as children of satan?

Psalms 51:5 NLT For I was born a sinner, Yes from the moment my mother conceived me.