The Works of the Law

[daq]

Only because you have also adopted the Leaven of the Pharisees religion, do you have this philosophy. And that being God didn't Separate His Laws defining Righteousness and True Holiness, from the Temporary "Law of Works" HE ADDED, Till the SEED should come. The Pharisees and "Many" who come in Christ's Name today, including it seems you, refuse to believe that God separates the Laws of God defining sin and righteousness, from God's Law "Concerning the matters of burnt-offering and sacrifice" for forgiveness of sin, which was "ADDED" to it.

As a result, you and the Pharisees and "Many" who call the Christ Lord, Lord, believe and promote to others that God's Law defining righteousness cannot ever be separated from the Temporary sacrificial "Works" HE gave Israel "because of transgression.

You and the Pharisees promote that there was NO change, that nothing in the Torah was prophesied to be "set aside".

Anyone who actually reads my posts and at least understands what I am saying by way of the scripture that is posted, (even if they do not agree), may easily see that my position is pretty much in direct opposition to the outward, physical, natural minded teachings of the Pharisees. Your accusations are nothing more than ad hominem and attempts at character assassination.

Moreover such tactics serve to reveal that you neither understand my position nor anything I have presented in this thread, and probably not anything anywhere else in the whole board for that matter, which essentially makes your walls of scripture interspersed with vitriol irrelevant.

Since you see fit to label me a Pharisee I take your meaning according to your own words:

I could go on and on. The Pharisees were "children of the devil". They were liars, murderers, who profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

So that begs the question, what "Works of the Law" were these Children of the Devil promoting for Justification of sin, that doesn't make Jesus a liar?

So what did these seed of evil doers do? Did they denounce the name of God and walk away from Him?

Clearly these seed of evil doers believed they could reject and rebel against God's commandments but come to Him on His Sabbath and partake of their version of these "works of the Law" and be pardoned (Justified) of their sin, in accordance to the letter of the Law of Moses.

This Same Prophet, the Messiah knew the Pharisees, the children of the devil who were vipers, liars and murderers,

Mark 3:22-30 ASV
22 And the scribes that came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and, By the prince of the demons casteth he out the demons.
23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.
26 And if Satan hath risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
27 But no one can enter into the house of the strong man, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
28 Verily I say unto you, All their sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and their blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin:
30 because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

 

[Studyman]

Anyone who actually reads my posts and at least understands what I am saying by way of the scripture that is posted, (even if they do not agree), may easily see that my position is pretty much in direct opposition to the outward, physical, natural minded teachings of the Pharisees. Your accusations are nothing more than ad hominem and attempts at character assassination.

Moreover such tactics serve to reveal that you neither understand my position nor anything I have presented in this thread, and probably not anything anywhere else in the whole board for that matter, which essentially makes your walls of scripture interspersed with vitriol irrelevant.

Since you see fit to label me a Pharisee I take your meaning according to your own words:

I never labeled you a Pharisee, but you know this. I simply pointed out that your adopted Philosophy and the Pharisees Philosophy are the same thing in some areas according to your posts. This is simply true where the Torah is concerned. I'm sorry that you are so offended by this observation.

"And as may be seen in the replies to your post which followed, the other poster who disagrees with your position doesn't understand this critical point: for he speaks of "the works of the law" as applying to the whole Torah"

You posted this about me, out of the Blue. I wanted to make sure the truth about my stated position was shown, so that people wouldn't believe the lie you were trying to spread. I don't speak to the "Works of the Law" as applying "to the Whole Torah". Because I understand Isaiah 1, that the disobedient in Israel rejected God's definition of Righteousness and True Holiness but showed up every week to be justified by the sacrificial "Works of the Law". Not the Whole Torah, as the Christ "of the Bible" teaches about them because they "omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith".


"As Paul is teaching, they are trying to be "justified" by "Works of the Law". Works that were no longer in force, because they were only "ADDED" until the SEED should come", (the same reasoning among those who say either some part or all of the Torah has been set aside).

According to the LAW and Prophets, part of the Torah was set aside. Do you believe this, the Pharisees didn't. But Jeremiah most certainly prophesied of the Change and I posted them for your review, and you refused to even acknowledge them.

I get it, you don't want to talk about it.

If you weren't going to address the topic, why did your pitch your little Dig at me in the first place?

Mark 3:22-30 ASV
22 And the scribes that came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and, By the prince of the demons casteth he out the demons.
23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.
26 And if Satan hath risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
27 But no one can enter into the house of the strong man, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
28 Verily I say unto you, All their sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and their blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin:
30 because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

You do have a high regard for yourself, and you are free to do so. Nevertheless, the Scriptures say what they say.

 

[HIM]

There is no way around what Paul says about his meaning of the idiom in the Galatians 3 passage in the OP. You are either outright denying what he says or you are making up your own secondary meaning for the idiom "the works of the law" so that you may circumvent what he says about it in Galatians 3:2-3. You are ignoring the Logos and logic within that text.

The OP is very short, simple, and straightforward:

-------------------------------------------------------

Nothing is being misunderstood, denied, made up or circumvented. The post you responded to was from Romans not Galatians. Let's deal with these passages first then we will revisit Galatians. In Romans The phrase is explained within the passage it is in. Paul through the Spirit writes It is the Law that gives us the knowledge of sin not an interpretation of it by the Elders. (Rom 3:20) An interpretation by the Pharisees never made anyone righteous or gave anyone any justification. The CONTEXT is the Law the Jews rested in, proving out the things that are more excellent being instructed out of the Law. (Rom 2:17) THE CONTEXT is the law they broke. In their stealing adulterous lives, they dishonored God making their circumcision uncircumcision in that they did not keep the Whole law (Rom 2:23-25). They weren't any better than the Gentiles they were trying to instruct (Rom 3:9). Therefore we charge both Jews and Greeks with being all under sin. There are none righteous, not even one, there is none who is understanding, there is none who is seeking after God. All went out of the way, All have broken the Law, together they became unprofitable, there is none doing good, there is not even one. (Rom 3:10-19)

Because of this. Because of What?

Because all the world is guilty before God we know that as many things as the Law says, to those in the Law it speaks, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God.

For this reason. For what reason?

Because all are guilty, for this reason by works of law no flesh is declared righteous before Him, for through the law they broke is a knowledge of sin. Therefore their mouths are stopped because they know they are guilty.

The logic in Gal 3:2-3 is irrefutable: one either believes it or does not, and if one does not understand the logic it is most likely either because of a reading comprehension deficiency or a blindness for upholding his or her own paradigm over the truth. I don't care which one it is, and am not making insinuations either way, but the fact is that your understanding of the idiom is incorrect: for Paul is certainly not teaching two entirely different meanings of the idiom for different congregations depending on which congregation it is to whom he writes.

The logic in Gal 3:2-11 is irrefutable: one either believes it or does not. And we will get to that once we get through Romans little tidbit.

 

[HIM]

That's fine by me but I do not agree that your issue is with me.

But it is.

 

[daq]

I never labeled you a Pharisee, but you know this. I simply pointed out that your adopted Philosophy and the Pharisees Philosophy are the same thing in some areas according to your posts. This is simply true where the Torah is concerned. I'm sorry that you are so offended by this observation.

You did indeed equate me with Pharisees and Pharisee beliefs.

"And as may be seen in the replies to your post which followed, the other poster who disagrees with your position doesn't understand this critical point: for he speaks of "the works of the law" as applying to the whole Torah"

You posted this about me, out of the Blue. I wanted to make sure the truth about my stated position was shown, so that people wouldn't believe the lie you were trying to spread. I don't speak to the "Works of the Law" as applying "to the Whole Torah". Because I understand Isaiah 1, that the disobedient in Israel rejected God's definition of Righteousness and True Holiness but showed up every week to be justified by the sacrificial "Works of the Law". Not the Whole Torah, as the Christ "of the Bible" teaches about them because they "omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith".


"As Paul is teaching, they are trying to be "justified" by "Works of the Law". Works that were no longer in force, because they were only "ADDED" until the SEED should come", (the same reasoning among those who say either some part or all of the Torah has been set aside).

You did speak of "the works of the Law" as applying to the whole Torah because Paul speaks of the whole Torah when he says that it was added in the verse which you misappropriated to say what you said. We've already been over it: if you do not understand what Paul means in the statement you which used to make your point that isn't my problem. Gal 3:19 speaks of the whole Torah being added: not just your cherry-picked "works of the Law" portions of the Torah.

According to the LAW and Prophets, part of the Torah was set aside. Do you believe this, the Pharisees didn't.

No I don't believe that because I believe the Testimony of the Meshiah: does that make me a Pharisee according to you? just because they also didn't believe what you believe? You've made yet another false assertion that you can neither prove from the Torah nor the Prophets.

But Jeremiah most certainly prophesied of the Change and I posted them for your review, and you refused to even acknowledge them.
I get it, you don't want to talk about it.

We've already been over that in other places too.

If you weren't going to address the topic, why did your pitch your little Dig at me in the first place?

It was the truth, not a little dig, and now again you have essentially admitted it though you denied on the previous page. How much of the Torah do you actually believe applies to you in your walk? Not much if you imagine that the Torah is divided up into so-called ceremonial laws that are now abolished.

Mark 9:43-50 KJV
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [Lev 2:13]
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Leviticus 2:13 is the only place in the Torah where you will find the commandment to offer salt with every sacrifice.

Leviticus 2:13 KJV
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.

As I keep saying according to the scripture, and you and yours keep refusing to believe: the Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14), and the Master expounds the sacrifices of Leviticus right there in the above Mark 9:43-50 passage for you if only you have ears to hear and eyes to see. Get to plucking and chopping if you wish to enter the kingdom and the new heavens and new earth, (Isa 66:22-24, Mrk 9:44, 46, 48).

You do have a high regard for yourself, and you are free to do so. Nevertheless, the Scriptures say what they say.

I have an extremely high regard for the scripture and I suspect that you envy that for some strange reason.

 

[daq]

Wrong assumption. Studyman has a very high regard for the infinte power of God, all three members of the God head, to deliver us from the power of sin, as do HIM and I. None of us rely on our own intellect or own will power to overcome sin.

Your understanding of scripture is fatally flawed as your understanding has you relying on yourself to overcome sin. If you weren't you wouldn't reject what any of us have to say.

You have only confirmed that you do not believe the Testimony of the Master which was posted in what you have quoted. That's your business but I do appreciate you making your position known.

Here it is again just to be sure where you stand:

Mark 9:43-50 KJV
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [Lev 2:13]
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Leviticus 2:13 is the only place in the Torah where you will find the commandment to offer salt with every sacrifice.

Leviticus 2:13 KJV
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.

As I keep saying according to the scripture, and you and yours keep refusing to believe: the Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14), and the Master expounds the sacrifices of Leviticus right there in the above Mark 9:43-50 passage for you if only you have ears to hear and eyes to see. Get to plucking and chopping if you wish to enter the kingdom and the new heavens and new earth, (Isa 66:22-24, Mrk 9:44, 46, 48).

-------------------------------------------------------------------

So then, just to be sure, Mark 9:43-50, Lev 2:13, and Isa 66:22-24 do not apply to you?

 

[HIM]

 

[Gary K]

View attachment 343513

Do you consider my posts offensive?

 

[HIM]

Do you consider my posts offensive?

It is almost everybody my friend not just one.

 

[Gary K]

It is almost everybody my friend not just one.

So how am I supposed to edit my posts to leave out what you consider offensive as I have no idea what you consider offensive in them?

To me I'd just have to delete them.

 

[HIM]

So how am I supposed to edit my posts to leave out what you consider offensive as I have no idea what you consider offensive in them?

To me I'd just have to delete them.

The rules state we are not to make comments about one another Gary.

 

[Gary K]

The rules state we are not to make comments about one another Gary.

So the truth is offensive.

 

[HIM]

So the truth is offensive.

Gary the rules state that we are not to make comments about one another. We all agreed to abide by the rules when we became members.
Would you rather posts get reported or seen by another member of the administration and the thread get shut down?

We are trying to avoid that.

 

[Gary K]

Gary the rules state that we are not to make comments about one another. We all agreed to abide by the rules when we became members.
Would you rather posts get reported or seen by another member of the administration and the thread get shut down?

We are trying to avoid that.

I understand. I just find it weird that people are so sensitive that they cannot stand to have anyone tell them the truth about themselves. Guess I'm just a different sort of cat.

We are right down to the end of time and it was prophecied that people would be people would be like this. so I shouldn't be surprised but it seems I always am by how deeply the devil has his hooks into people,

2Timothy 4: 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[Studyman]

You did indeed equate me with Pharisees and Pharisee beliefs.

Yes, I showed where your beliefs, and the Pharisees beliefs seem to be aligned regarding the torah, in my view.

You did speak of "the works of the Law" as applying to the whole Torah because Paul speaks of the whole Torah when he says that it was added in the verse which you misappropriated to say what you said.

No, I shared my understanding that God makes a separation between His Laws defining Righteousness and True holiness, from His Law that was ADDED in Mercy, "concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices" for sin, to provide for the atonement of Sins, "Till the SEED should come.

We've already been over it: if you do not understand what Paul means in the statement you which used to make your point that isn't my problem. Gal 3:19 speaks of the whole Torah being added: not just your cherry-picked "works of the Law" portions of the Torah.

That is what "Many" who transform themselves into apostles of Christ may promote. But that is not what the scriptures teach in my view. In fact, it is quite absurd to preach that God's Law, defining righteousness and true holiness that Abraham obeyed, wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years after he obeyed them. And was only ADDED until the SEED should come. But that is what this world's religions who come in Christ's Name preach as they promote the foolishness that now that the Christ has come, God's Law defining righteousness and true Holiness is no longer necessary for their consideration. I don't believe the LAW that was ADDED because of Transgressions, was God's LAW defining righteousness. I believe the LAW that was ADDED, was added "To God's Law defining Righteousness", for the purpose of providing temporary forgiveness, till the seed should come.

And I pointed out to you;

Jer. 7: 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I "have" commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

So to believe you, I would have to believe that God "ADDED" these Laws first, before the great transgression, and then later on, HE "ADDED" more Laws "Concerning burnt offering and sacrifices" for sin, for another transgression.

Of course, this is foolishness.

The Galatians here had already received forgiveness of their sins, which can only be achieved through the Spirit of God. The Pharisees were promoting the same "Works" for justification/remission of sins in Galatians, as they were in Romans, which as I have exposed, were the same "Works" for justification they promoted in Is. 1. "Did you receive forgiveness (The Spirit of God) by works of the Law" or hearing of Faith.

They weren't trying to get the Galatians to Love the Lord with all their might, and Love their neighbor as themselves, or any of the "weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith" that Abraham and Joseph walked in, which defined God's Righteousness and True Holiness. They were still promoting their version of the Law "concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices" for sin. A Law ADDED 430 years after God said Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

This understanding is not because I cherry pick Scriptures, but because I don't.

No I don't believe that because I believe the Testimony of the Meshiah:

But if God inspires the Prophets to foretell of a Change in the manner in which God's Laws are received, and the manner in which Sins are forgiven, which undeniably happened, and the "Change" comes to pass as Prophesied, then are not every title and jot of the Law and Prophets being fulfilled? So then to believe the Messiah, would be to believe He ushered in the Prophesied Change. And I completely believe HE did, because of how HE taught the People, and How sins were forgiven through Him. Which was different than the Covenant God made with Israel, after the Golden Calf.

32 Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day of My laying hold on their hand, To bring them out of the land of Egypt, In that they made void My covenant, (Transgressed) And I ruled over them--an affirmation of Yahweh.

does that make me a Pharisee according to you?

And yet, you appear to deny the Change God Promised regarding the manner in which God's Laws are received, and the manner in which sins were to be forgiven. Or at least you appear not willing to acknowledge or discuss what is written regarding the Promised change.

Didn't the Pharisees engage in the same behavior?

just because they also didn't believe what you believe? You've made yet another false assertion that you can neither prove from the Torah nor the Prophets.

I am simply responding to your little dig out of the blue. I understand how you feel about anyone who would dare to challenge your religious philosophy and have made a concerted effort to not engage with you. Perhaps in the future, I should just ignore your little digs.

We've already been over that in other places too.

And the scriptures brought question to your adopted religious philosophy then as well.

 

[Studyman]

It was the truth, not a little dig, and now again you have essentially admitted it though you denied on the previous page. How much of the Torah do you actually believe applies to you in your walk? Not much if you imagine that the Torah is divided up into so-called ceremonial laws that are now abolished.

LOL, can you find even ONE place where I used the term "ceremonial laws being abolished"? NO! Because I never use the term. I use the term "Feasts of the Lord", and I honor God in them. You made it up about me, just like you slandered me in your little dig that you are still promoting is the truth but is not. And what does it benefit me, or even members of your own adopted religion to question even one of your words. You will come down on me, like you come down on members of your own religion, this forum is full of examples. It's always the other guy with you.

So once again, I am left to straighten out your tale bearing about my understanding. Not to defend myself, because I don't need to, and am not offended in the least. I have come to expect nothing different from "Many" who call the Messiah Lord, Lord.

Nevertheless, the Torah is of great importance to me. And turning God's Laws inward, is how God directs my footsteps. I understand the Pharisees as Paul did. And Isaiah did. They promoted lies about God and His Word, they created their own religion and religious businesses using "some" of God's Word as a marketing strategy. They sought the teaching from Jewish Rabbis, and other sources apart from God's inspired word. And yet, every week they would come to the temple, and offer the Blood of a righteous, innocent life, to justify their willful rebellion and disrespect towards God, according to their version of the Law "concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices" for sin.

It is the same today in my view. "Many" religious sects and businesses, "Who call Messiah Lord, Lord", reject God's Feasts and create their own high days. They reject God's Sabbaths and create their own. They create their own Judgments, and reject God's definition of Clean, Holy, Righteous and good. And yet every week, they come to God and offer to Him the righteous blood of an innocent being for their willful rebellion and disrespect towards God, according to their own version of the Law "concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices" for sin.

That was never the purpose of the Sacrifices of the Old Covenant, nor of the New. God showed Israel an enormous Mercy after the Golden calf, just as HE showed me the same mercy for the same reason. The offering for sin was to be a prized possession, something precious to me, a cost to me. For me, my most precious possession was my pride, my selfishness, and the religious traditions of my family. The Sabbath Fast of God taught me not to hide myself from my own flesh. I am to offer my most precious possession to God, something I naturally work to preserve and protect, as one would for their perfect, unblemished yearling lamb. The purpose of which was to sting a little, chastisement, for the purpose of creating in me a Godly sorrow for my sin. A honest Sorrow that leads to repentance. and creating within my heart a desire to please God, not with my lips, but with my actions and behavior.

Duet. 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. 8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. 9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.


I could go one and on, but I fear you would have no idea what I'm even talking about. For you it seems, God is hidden in some scroll hidden in a cave for centuries, or God is hidden in the traditions of ancient Jewish rabbis, or the Talmud or a foreign language. But for me, HE is right here, in the Oracles of God in my own home, in my own heart, just as Jeremiah Prophesied.

Duet 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

EVERY LAW, every sacrifice has a Spiritual meaning, founded in God's Mercy towards me, was written Specifically for me, for my sake no doubt.

I don't know everything. But I know what "works of the Law" the Pharisees were twisting and using to Justify their Sin. And I also know what Law was ADDED, because of transgressions, till the SEED should come.

I'm not going to reject or abandon what the scriptures have shown me, just so you will stop making up falsehoods about my position.

Mark 9:43-50 KJV
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [Lev 2:13]
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Leviticus 2:13 is the only place in the Torah where you will find the commandment to offer salt with every sacrifice.

Leviticus 2:13 KJV
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.

As I keep saying according to the scripture, and you and yours keep refusing to believe: the Torah is spiritual,

There you go again. A perpetual tale bearer.

(Rom 7:14), and the Master expounds the sacrifices of Leviticus right there in the above Mark 9:43-50 passage for you if only you have ears to hear and eyes to see.

Matt. 7: 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Get to plucking and chopping if you wish to enter the kingdom and the new heavens and new earth, (Isa 66:22-24, Mrk 9:44, 46, 48).

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

I have an extremely high regard for the scripture and I suspect that you envy that for some strange reason.

No, your constant self-exaltation doesn't stir envy in me Daq, closer to pity that you can judge everyone else, but not yourself.

From what I have read, you have a greater regard for the Pseudepigrapha, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Targums, the Talmud, the homiletic, and apocalyptic midrashim, the Zohar, and the medieval rabbis.

Ecc. 12: 11 The words of the wise are like goad points, And like imbedded bolts for the possessors of gathered sayings They are given "by one shepherd"." 12 Yet furthermore, my son, from adding to these, be warned; Of the making of many scrolls there is no end, And much study is weariness to the flesh." 13 The terminus of the whole matter has been heard: Fear the One, Elohim, and keep His instructions, For this is the whole duty of humanity.

Nevertheless, it is good to discuss these issues, especially Paul who is difficult to understand. I am grateful for the platform to share what study of the Scriptures, apart from the influence of this world's many religious sects "Who come in His Name", have shown me.

 

[daq]

LOL, can you find even ONE place where I used the term "ceremonial laws being abolished"? NO! Because I never use the term. I use the term "Feasts of the Lord", and I honor God in them. You made it up about me, just like you slandered me in your little dig that you are still promoting is the truth but is not. And what does it benefit me, or even members of your own adopted religion to question even one of your words. You will come down on me, like you come down on members of your own religion, this forum is full of examples. It's always the other guy with you.

So once again, I am left to straighten out your tale bearing about my understanding. Not to defend myself, because I don't need to, and am not offended in the least. I have come to expect nothing different from "Many" who call the Messiah Lord, Lord.

Nevertheless, the Torah is of great importance to me. And turning God's Laws inward, is how God directs my footsteps. I understand the Pharisees as Paul did. And Isaiah did. They promoted lies about God and His Word, they created their own religion and religious businesses using "some" of God's Word as a marketing strategy. They sought the teaching from Jewish Rabbis, and other sources apart from God's inspired word. And yet, every week they would come to the temple, and offer the Blood of a righteous, innocent life, to justify their willful rebellion and disrespect towards God, according to their version of the Law "concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices" for sin.

It is the same today in my view. "Many" religious sects and businesses, "Who call Messiah Lord, Lord", reject God's Feasts and create their own high days. They reject God's Sabbaths and create their own. They create their own Judgments, and reject God's definition of Clean, Holy, Righteous and good. And yet every week, they come to God and offer to Him the righteous blood of an innocent being for their willful rebellion and disrespect towards God, according to their own version of the Law "concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices" for sin.

That was never the purpose of the Sacrifices of the Old Covenant, nor of the New. God showed Israel an enormous Mercy after the Golden calf, just as HE showed me the same mercy for the same reason. The offering for sin was to be a prized possession, something precious to me, a cost to me. For me, my most precious possession was my pride, my selfishness, and the religious traditions of my family. The Sabbath Fast of God taught me not to hide myself from my own flesh. I am to offer my most precious possession to God, something I naturally work to preserve and protect, as one would for their perfect, unblemished yearling lamb. The purpose of which was to sting a little, chastisement, for the purpose of creating in me a Godly sorrow for my sin. A honest Sorrow that leads to repentance. and creating within my heart a desire to please God, not with my lips, but with my actions and behavior.

Duet. 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. 8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. 9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.


I could go one and on, but I fear you would have no idea what I'm even talking about. For you it seems, God is hidden in some scroll hidden in a cave for centuries, or God is hidden in the traditions of ancient Jewish rabbis, or the Talmud or a foreign language. But for me, HE is right here, in the Oracles of God in my own home, in my own heart, just as Jeremiah Prophesied.

Duet 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

EVERY LAW, every sacrifice has a Spiritual meaning, founded in God's Mercy towards me, was written Specifically for me, for my sake no doubt.

I don't know everything. But I know what "works of the Law" the Pharisees were twisting and using to Justify their Sin. And I also know what Law was ADDED, because of transgressions, till the SEED should come.

I'm not going to reject or abandon what the scriptures have shown me, just so you will stop making up falsehoods about my position.



There you go again. A perpetual tale bearer.



Matt. 7: 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.



Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.



No, your constant self-exaltation doesn't stir envy in me Daq, closer to pity that you can judge everyone else, but not yourself.

From what I have read, you have a greater regard for the Pseudepigrapha, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Targums, the Talmud, the homiletic, and apocalyptic midrashim, the Zohar, and the medieval rabbis.

Ecc. 12: 11 The words of the wise are like goad points, And like imbedded bolts for the possessors of gathered sayings They are given "by one shepherd"." 12 Yet furthermore, my son, from adding to these, be warned; Of the making of many scrolls there is no end, And much study is weariness to the flesh." 13 The terminus of the whole matter has been heard: Fear the One, Elohim, and keep His instructions, For this is the whole duty of humanity.

Nevertheless, it is good to discuss these issues, especially Paul who is difficult to understand. I am grateful for the platform to share what study of the Scriptures, apart from the influence of this world's many religious sects "Who come in His Name", have shown me.

It took you two lengthy posts full of vitriol to respond to this:

You did indeed equate me with Pharisees and Pharisee beliefs.

You did speak of "the works of the Law" as applying to the whole Torah because Paul speaks of the whole Torah when he says that it was added in the verse which you misappropriated to say what you said. We've already been over it: if you do not understand what Paul means in the statement you which used to make your point that isn't my problem. Gal 3:19 speaks of the whole Torah being added: not just your cherry-picked "works of the Law" portions of the Torah.

No I don't believe that because I believe the Testimony of the Meshiah: does that make me a Pharisee according to you? just because they also didn't believe what you believe? You've made yet another false assertion that you can neither prove from the Torah nor the Prophets.

We've already been over that in other places too.

It was the truth, not a little dig, and now again you have essentially admitted it though you denied on the previous page. How much of the Torah do you actually believe applies to you in your walk? Not much if you imagine that the Torah is divided up into so-called ceremonial laws that are now abolished.

I have an extremely high regard for the scripture and I suspect that you envy that for some strange reason.

But to the Testimony of the Meshiah and HIS passage references which were honored in my post:

Mark 9:43-50 KJV
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [Lev 2:13]
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Leviticus 2:13 is the only place in the Torah where you will find the commandment to offer salt with every sacrifice.

Leviticus 2:13 KJV
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.

As I keep saying according to the scripture, and you and yours keep refusing to believe: the Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14), and the Master expounds the sacrifices of Leviticus right there in the above Mark 9:43-50 passage for you if only you have ears to hear and eyes to see. Get to plucking and chopping if you wish to enter the kingdom and the new heavens and new earth, (Isa 66:22-24, Mrk 9:44, 46, 48).

-------------------------------------

You offered only this:

There you go again. A perpetual tale bearer.

That's all I need to know about your beliefs and claims.

 

[Studyman]

As I keep saying according to the scripture, and you and yours keep refusing to believe: the Torah is spiritual,

I believe the Torah is spiritual. I posted as much in great detail. Yet you keep saying I refuse to believe the Torah is spiritual.

"Me and mine" which is also a slanderous dig. This judgment of yours is patently false, it is bearing a tale, a lie to be honest. You keep doing it Daq. A perpetual promoting of something that is not true. A falsehood you preach to others, over and over again, that I don't believe the Torah is Spiritual, when my posts clearly show that I do.

Now I don't care that you are promoting this lie about me, you are free to tell as many falsehoods as you want. I'm not offended by your perpetual talebearing in this manner. I am simply addressing it.

You are free to express your opinion. Some of your opinions I find spot on and I reply honestly in encouragement. Others, not so much. Certainly your opinion of my not believing the Torah is Spiritual, is an opinion I know if false. But I don't begrudge you the right to express it. I simply disagree, because I know better.

I'm OK with that.

 

[daq]

I believe the Torah is spiritual. I posted as much in great detail. Yet you keep saying I refuse to believe the Torah is spiritual.

"Me and mine" which is also a slanderous dig. This judgment of yours is patently false, it is bearing a tale, a lie to be honest. You keep doing it Daq. A perpetual promoting of something that is not true. A falsehood you preach to others, over and over again, that I don't believe the Torah is Spiritual, when my posts clearly show that I do.

Now I don't care that you are promoting this lie about me, you are free to tell as many falsehoods as you want. I'm not offended by your perpetual talebearing in this manner. I am simply addressing it.

You are free to express your opinion. Some of your opinions I find spot on and I reply honestly in encouragement. Others, not so much. Certainly your opinion of my not believing the Torah is Spiritual, is an opinion I know if false. But I don't begrudge you the right to express it. I simply disagree, because I know better.

I'm OK with that.

That is a Torah commandment for which you have accused me of being in perpetual violation.

Leviticus 19:16-18 KJV
16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Moreover Romans 7:14 has been quoted and-or referenced in my posts many times in many places, all over this board, and at least four times already in this thread. What I said about that was the truth, and indeed, if you actually believed that the Torah is spiritual you would not be believing that any part of it needed to be done away with or was only "added" until the seed, (according to your own private meaning of that Pauline passage in the manner in which you used it in one of your arguments).

Moreover I am not referencing or posting Torah to condemn people as you are doing to me: I post it because it is righteous and true, and profitable for doctrine, and I post it especially when the Master and his Apostles quote it so as to include background context provided in the scripture. Do you not realize that we are all condemned under the Torah so that every mouth may be shut up or stopped? How is it that you appropriate the right to yourself to wield the Torah as a rod of iron against fellow believers, brothers, and neighbors?

If you want to play Torah lawyer this it what it says about false accusers:

Exodus 20:16 KJV
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Deuteronomy 5:20 KJV
20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Deuteronomy 19:16-20 KJV
16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
20 And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.

Notice one thing these passages above have in common: they speak of things such as talebearing, false witness, and hatred in the manner in which it is expressed against one's neighbors or brethren.

1 John 3:9-15 KJV
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

 

[Studyman]

Leviticus 2:13 KJV
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with "all thine offerings" thou shalt offer salt.

Num. 18:19 All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the LORD, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it is a covenant of salt for ever before the LORD unto thee and to thy seed with thee.

Rom. 12: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that "ye present" your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Matt. 5: 11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil "against you falsely", for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. 13 "Ye are the salt of the earth": but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Salt is a necessary preservative for meat. If a man offers himself, as the Messiah did, how would His Offering be preserved? It is written of the Messiah, "Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good", Did this not "preserve" Him, Spiritually speaking?

Heb. 5: 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

What does HE tell me?

Matt. 6: 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Isn't the Salt that preserves the offerings to God, humility and submission, Spiritually Speaking? Is the salt not rubbed into the meat, even pounded into it, to preserve it? What if I find a small, spoiled piece of meat? Shall I not cut it out and discard it, rather than let it spread through the entire offering, as Leaven leavens the whole lump?

Isn't that the Spiritual meaning of "cutting off my foot" (How I am walking) if it offends"? Or "Cutting off my hands" (my works) "if it offends"? Or cutting out my Eyes ( how I see things) of it offends?

Is this not what Paul means? "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that "ye put on" the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Salted)

And the Rock of Israel, who espouses the same thing;

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Truly every Law, and Every offering has a Spiritual meaning for the purpose of "Preserving me", as I seek to have Salt in myself.

Yes Daq, the Law is Spiritual.