Is believing/faith a work ?

[Clare73]

Yes, they're saved, by their belief in God just as Abraham believed and was justified.

Abraham was justified (accounted/imputed) as righteous by believing in the promise (Seed, Jesus Christ) of Gen 15:5 (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:23).

So what's the point? Was the faith of the Pharisees sufficient or not? Or since they're non-biblical, should we even discuss them for that matter?

Okay. . .the point is that faith in God does not save, the Jews have faith in God and are not saved (Ro 11:17-23).
It is only faith in Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-9) that saves.

 

[fhansen]

Abraham was justified (accounted/imputed) as righteous by believing in the promise (Seed, Jesus Christ) of Gen 15:5 (Ge 15:6, Ro 4:23).

He believed in God. That's the whole point of our faith, the reason Jesus came.
"Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God." 1 Pet 1:21

Okay. . .the point is that faith in God does not save, the Jews have faith in God and are not saved (Ro 11:17-23).
It is only faith in Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-9) that saves.

One cannot even know the true God except through Jesus Christ. So:
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

 

[AbbaLove]

"Works" does not refer to God's works, it refers to man's works, about which man could boast (Ro 3:27, 4:2, 1 Co 1:29, Eph 2:9),
which is why human works are not allowed in salvation (Eph 2:8-9) and justification (Ro 3:28)--so that no one can boast (Eph 2:9).

Apparently someone forgot to tell James that he was wrong, but then you don't agree with this scripture ...

Faith Without Works Is Dead​

​

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.​

​

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by [b]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.​

​

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?​

​

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.​

So, perhaps you'd even debate the Apostle James? Or do you consider certain scriptures to NOT be the inspired Word of the New Covenant (NT). Perhaps you believe James is a little too beholden to Jewish examples of kindness ("works") based on ones Messanic Faith ... than was Paul's NT message to Gentiles (void of "works") ?

What about Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan? Wouldn't that likewise apply to a secular neighbor, even an unfriendly neighbor that's injured or hungry ... "Love your neighbor as yourself"? even rescuing a lamb on the Jewish Sabbath Christian (Matthew 12:11).

Dare i conclude that even you have at least one time performed a good "work" on Sunday as a faithful Christian. A good deed you wouldn't have done if having a mindset as that of a lukewarm Christian.

 

[Clare73]

He believed in God. That's the whole point of our faith, the reason Jesus came.
"Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God." 1 Pet 1:21

One cannot even know the true God except through Jesus Christ. So:
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

So we are in agreement. . .

 

[fhansen]

So we are in agreement. . .

Well, I'd certainly hope so...

 

[Clare73]

Apparently someone forgot to tell James, but then you know this verse as well as anyone ...

Faith Without Works Is Dead​

You misunderstand James.

Yes, true faith has works, and if there are no works, there is no true faith, as James states.
But it is only the true faith itself, not true faith's works, which save (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[Doug Brents]

You misunderstand James.

Yes, true faith has works, and if there are no works, there is no true faith, as James states.
But it is only the true faith itself, not true faith's works, which save (Eph 2:8-9).

Without the works, then there is no true faith. That means that your interpretation of Eph 2:8-9 is flawed, because it is not that there is no action that leads to receiving salvation, but no action that can earn receiving salvation.

 

[Clare73]

Without the works, then there is no true faith. That means that your interpretation of Eph 2:8-9 is flawed, because it is not that there is no action that leads to receiving salvation, but no action that can earn receiving salvation.

Our actions do not "lead" to salvation. Nor is faith a work/action, it is a disposition. The NT everywhere opposes faith to works/actions.

Our salvation is only through faith, (which is a gift of God, not our own doing--Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:26, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3), not through faith's works/actions (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[AbbaLove]

You misunderstand James.

Yes, true faith has works, and if there are no works, there is no true faith, as James states.
But it is only the true faith itself, not true faith's works, which save (Eph 2:8-9).

Than we agree. It may be that you purposely go out of your way to misundertand another's reply/post so as to continue a debate ... if only for the sake of debate.

Maybe you also like to add your own additional qualification ("not true faith's works"} while unable to give a few examples of "true faith's works" hopefully showing that we actually agree on how James should be interrupted.

However, any opposing debate could end and so too further posts going round and round, but accomplishing little ... other than for you or others to think their understanding of "works" is more faithful than anothers

 

[Doug Brents]

Our actions do not "lead" to salvation. Nor is faith a work/action, it is a disposition. The NT everywhere opposes faith to works/actions.

Our salvation is only through faith, (which is a gift of God, not our own doing--Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:26, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3), not through faith's works/actions (Eph 2:8-9).

Ok, well then, let me ask you a question:
In Rom 10:9-10, does one confess Jesus as Lord because he has been saved? Or does one's confession of Jesus as Lord lead to/result in him being saved? What does the Scripture say?

 

[Josheb]

Well, you pretty much lost me in all that to be honest. It appears I'll at least need to review the thread in order to reply appropriately.

Happy to take it incrementally and answer any op-relevant questions about my posts.

But off hand I wonder if you're not confusing mere lip-service with genuine faith.

"Lip-service" would be an additional definition of faith worth considering (and perhaps discussing) but that's not intellectual assent. It's not fair or accurate to say the all Jews or any particular Jew in the Bible (like, say Gamaliel) confused faith with lip service or that their faith was synonymous with lip service. The same could be extended to orthodox Jews or Muslims, or any other religious person who practices a ritualized religion. they operationalize their faith in very substantive ways completely contrary to the premise of lip service. So much so I'm inclined to say to things in response: 1) that's a red herring, and 2) I know that probably wasn't intended as a personally disparaging comment, but I am not confusing anything, not even intellectual assent with lip-service.

 

[AbbaLove]

Ok, well then, let me ask you a question:
In Rom 10:9-10, does one confess Jesus as Lord because he has been saved? Or does one's confession of Jesus as Lord lead to/result in him being saved? What does the Scripture say?

That's for another threads' lenthy discussion debate ... stay on thread title topic. Do you have a new revelation

 

[Doug Brents]

That's for another threads' lenthy discussion debate ... stay on thread title topic.

That question is directly on topic. Clare's comment was that faith/believing is not a work (and he is correct), but faith without action is completely dead and worthless. Actions are the lifeblood, the soul, of faith; and without them faith does not really exist. As point in fact, Rom 10:9-10 says explicitly that the physical action of confessing Jesus as Lord RESULTS IN (leads to) salvation. It does not flow out of having already received it. From this, we can see that there are actions that do fall under "faith" leading to salvation and not "works of the Law" to "earn" salvation.

 

[Brightfame52]

Humility is truth.

Love rejoices with the truth.

The truth is that your posts #1363 and #1373 are uninformed and inadequate.

Butt it is God's word (Eph 2:8-9) that you are not in agreement with, which precludes discussion with me.

Yes it is Gods word, and you arent in agreement Eph 2:8-9 it contradicts your conditionalism

 

[fhansen]

Happy to take it incrementally and answer any op-relevant questions about my posts.

"Lip-service" would be an additional definition of faith worth considering (and perhaps discussing) but that's not intellectual assent. It's not fair or accurate to say the all Jews or any particular Jew in the Bible (like, say Gamaliel) confused faith with lip service or that their faith was synonymous with lip service. The same could be extended to orthodox Jews or Muslims, or any other religious person who practices a ritualized religion. they operationalize their faith in very substantive ways completely contrary to the premise of lip service. So much so I'm inclined to say to things in response: 1) that's a red herring, and 2) I know that probably wasn't intended as a personally disparaging comment, but I am not confusing anything, not even intellectual assent with lip-service.

Ok, so without going back and reading everything, what is the purpose of faith, or the difference between the old and new covenants?

 

[Brightfame52]

@Josheb

We are justified by the blood of Christ long before we're justified by faith, and faith is gifted to "us,

So those for whom Christ died, shed His Blood for, are born as ungodly sinners, dead in sin, at enmity against God in their minds by wicked works disobedient and unbelieving, yet they are born Justified before God by His Blood ? Yes or No

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Ok, well then, let me ask you a question:
In Rom 10:9-10, does one confess Jesus as Lord because he has been saved? Or does one's confession of Jesus as Lord lead to/result in him being saved? What does the Scripture say?

Good point Doug.

We see faith (believe in your heart) and the action ("work") that accompanies faith (confess with your mouth) in Romans 10:9-10. Faith in action is what leads to salvation. That's why it says just 2 and 3 verses later that whoever "calls" (action) on the name of the Lord will be saved but that no one "calls" on Him unless they believe ("faith") in Him.

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”​

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? (Ro 10:8–15)​

And it is no accident that after declaring that salvation by faith is different from salvation by works in verses 5 and 6, his discussion of salvation by faith includes the declatory statement in verse 8 that faith and it's accompanying action is "near", not far off, meaning it is within our human capabilities. So that when he says everyone who hears about Jesus, believes in Him, and calls on Him for salvation will be saved, he means to say salvation through faith in Christ is available to everyone. And you are right, Jesus saves people after they put their trust in Him and go to Him for salvation.

 

[Brightfame52]

@B Griffin

It is not a physical action.

Doesnt have to be, work can be mental. The works of the flesh are Gal 5:19

the works of the flesh are manifest
which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Are envyings, heresies physical or mental works ?

If a man commit's adultery with a women in his heart, is it physical or mental action ? Matt 5:28

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

This is a work of the flesh, a deed

 

[Brightfame52]

You are correct that sin comes from and is committed in the heart. Jesus made this crystal clear.

18 So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” 20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” (Mk 7:17–23)​

and

But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Mt 5:28)​

​

This statement is theologically challenged. You are claiming that believing is a "work" by virtue of the fact that it is a verb?

This statement is even more theologically challenged. It is clear that God has decided that He will save people who believe the gospel.

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Co 1:21)​

Believing is a work of the mind friend. If you condition your salvation before God on your act, work of believing, thats a foundation of sand !

 

[Clare73]

Than we agree. It may be that you purposely go out of your way to misundertand another's reply/post so as to continue a debate ... if only for the sake of debate.

my #1381 - "human works are not allowed in salvation (Eph 2:8-9) and justification (Ro 3:28)--so that no one can boast (Eph 2:9)"

your #1406 - "Apparently someone forgot to tell James that he was wrong (which, in light of the usual use of James to contradict Paul, I understood to be sarcasm from one who used James to contradict Paul) but then you don't agree with this scripture ... Faith Without Works Is Dead"

my 1409 - my explanation of James (in rebuttal to James' supposed disagreement with Paul, with which disagreement I understood you to be in agreement)

your #1412 - your agreement, and accusation that I purposely go out of the way to misunderstand another's reply, adding the following:

Maybe you also like to add your own additional qualification ("not true faith's works"} while unable to give a few examples of "true faith's works" hopefully showing that we actually agree on how James should be interrupted.

Have you misunderstood my statement in #1409, following?
"Yes, true faith has works, and if there are no works, there is no true faith, as James states.
But it is only the true faith itself, not true faith's works, which save (Eph 2:8-9)"

"True" faith's" works are obedience, as distinct from "false" faith which has no works of obedience.

Following with further misunderstanding?

However, any opposing debate could end and so too further posts going round and round, but accomplishing little ... other than for you or others to think their understanding of "works" is more faithful than anothers

All very confusing. . .so with what do you agree or disagree?