Is believing/faith a work ?

[bbbbbbb]

@bbbbbbb


Then thats works.

Yes, and no. Did I procure and install the copper wiring? No, I did not and that would be true for virtually everyone. However, the electric company did not procure or install the wiring, either. I purchased the house with the wiring already installed. If one wishes to push my analogy one might come up with the idea that the human soul is already wired to have faith, but, like electricity, the wiring is utterly useless until the outside source flows through the wires.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes, and no. Did I procure and install the copper wiring? No, I did not and that would be true for virtually everyone. However, the electric company did not procure or install the wiring, either. I purchased the house with the wiring already installed. If one wishes to push my analogy one might come up with the idea that the human soul is already wired to have faith, but, like electricity, the wiring is utterly useless until the outside source flows through the wires.

Its Yes. Whenever you condition salvation on any act of yours its works or merit salvation

 

[AbbaLove]

The NT's setting of faith against performance (post #1351) means that faith (believing) in the NT is not a performance, it is a disposition, which always results in performance (obedience), but it is not the performance (obedience) itself, it is only its source.

Your above lengthy sentence reminds one of a doctoral thesis (intellectual assent) ... certainly open to one's interpretation of one's "faith (believing)".as well as "performance." Performance has gotten a bad rap in no small measure to today's modern church "performance."

"Performance" (e.g. Samson, David) should be understood as "Fulfilled" via the GODHEAD. And yet it's often viewed as man's performance ... "And the women answered one another as they played, and said, Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands." ... Is HIS Performance via man only possible with faithful "Obedience"?? What about Abel, Noah, Samson .... was their "faithfulness" their own doing or only possible via God's doing?

Luke 1:45 .(the majority of translations use "fulfillment" in place of performance)

And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. (KJV, JUB)​

Bible verses about performance ... What Does the Bible Say About Performance?​

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

So would you agree that believing is a performance, a verb, something one does ?

To be clear, "believing" and "not believing" are choices we make when we are confronted with things that demand trust or distrust.

These verses demand we put our trust in Christ:

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”​

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” (Jn 6:28–29)​

This verse demands we do not believe every Spirit:

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1 Jn 4:1)​

Believing and not believing are choices that we make. But concerning the choice that many have made to rest all their hope in Christ, it is not a "work", it is a choice to rest from their works and rely wholely on Jesus for the saving of their souls. It is the opposite of "works".

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Saving faith is belief in and trust on the atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous (justified).

Faith is not an outward physical performance (work), it is an inner disposition, just as hope, joy, trust, confidence, fear, doubt, decisions, etc. are inner dispositions, and are not outward performances, which outward performances are the works/results of the inner disposition. . .one is the source, the other is the performance emanating from that source.
Works and faith are not the same thing, one being outer performance and the other being inner disposition, one being outcome and the other being source. The fire is not the melted butter.

There are many things that go on in the brain only that are decribed by verbs ("action words"). Here are a few examples:

And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. (Jos 24:15)​

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mt 10:28)​

if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved (Ro 10:9)​

Believing, fearing, not fearing, and choosing are all actions that only occur inside a person. Certainly they are action words, and using verbs to describe them is appropriate.

 

[Clare73]

Believing is an act of obedience. And obedience is connected to Faith Heb 11 8


By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

So if we condition Salvation on Faith, which is something in us, thats merit salvation as well

No, "merit salvation" would be if we merit salvation on some action we do.

Likewise, the thing within us (faith) is not our own doing, it is of God (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

 

[Clare73]

Your above lengthy sentence reminds one of a doctoral thesis (intellectual assent) ... certainly open to one's interpretation of one's "faith (believing)".as well as "performance." Performance has gotten a bad rap in no small measure to today's modern church "performance."

"Performance" (e.g. Samson, David) should be understood as "Fulfilled" via the GODHEAD. And yet it's often viewed as man's performance ... "And the women answered one another as they played, and said, Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands." ... Is HIS Performance via man only possible with faithful "Obedience"?? What about Abel, Noah, Samson .... was their "faithfulness" their own doing or only possible via God's doing?

Luke 1:45 .(the majority of translations use "fulfillment" in place of performance)

And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. (KJV, JUB)​

Bible verses about performance ... What Does the Bible Say About Performance?​

I am not referring to the Greek word "performance," I am referring to a concept in presenting the NT"s "faith" and "works" as not being the same thing.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Its Yes. Whenever you condition salvation on any act of yours its works or merit salvation

I apologize if I have left you with the idea that the electric company in my analogy is somehow controlled by myself. I suppose you might suggest that the act of flipping a switch on is analogous to a work (which it is, indeed). However, that is the point where my analogy falls apart, in my opinion. My point was simply that human souls, unlike those of other animate beings (which is debatable) are "wired" for faith, but faith is external to the wiring, and is at the control of that external source.

 

[Brightfame52]

@B Griffin

To be clear, "believing" and "not believing" are choices we make when we are confronted with things that demand trust or distrust.

Okay, so its something we do correct ? An act, or action, something done

 

[Clare73]

There are many things that go on in the brain only that are decribed by verbs ("action words"). Here are a few examples:

And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. (Jos 24:15)​

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mt 10:28)​

if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved (Ro 10:9)​

Believing, fearing, not fearing, and choosing are all actions that only occur inside a person. Certainly they are action words, and using verbs to describe them is appropriate.

In terms of the NT distinction opposing faith to works, believing, fearing, choosing are not works.

 

[Brightfame52]

I am not referring to the Greek word "performance," I am referring to a concept in presenting the NT"s "faith" and "works" as not being the same thing.

Its an action ergon the word inspired by the Holy Ghost. You also say its something inward, a disposition,

means that faith (believing) in the NT is not a performance, it is a disposition

Disposition means:
a persons inherent qualities of mind and character.

So if you condition salvation on your faith, you condition it on character. Thats works plus character, that totally denies Grace Salvation friend

 

[Brightfame52]

In terms of the NT distinction opposing faith to works, believing, fearing, choosing are not works.

Yes they are, and fearing is a quality, a character. Its work Merit salvation if you condition it on something did by you, or something in you

 

[AbbaLove]

Likewise, the thing within us (faith) is not our own doing, it is of God (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

What about Abel, Noah, David .... was their "faithfulness" their own doing or only possible via God's doing? (#1363)
Doesn't that give some credence to Calvin's theology? If not Why?

Now you guys are disputing what is solely the work(s) of man vs the work(s) of God through faithful man.

 

[Brightfame52]

What about Abel, Noah, David .... was their "faithfulness" their own doing or only possible via God's doing? (#1363)
Doesn't that give some credence to Calvin's theology? If not Why?

Now you guys are disputing what is solely the work(s) of man vs the work(s) of God vis man.

Even the work of God in a man shouldn't be the condition on why God saves us, but the fruit. The only condition to save a person was all fulfilled by Christ for them.

 

[Clare73]

Its an action ergon the word inspired by the Holy Ghost. You also say its something inward, a disposition,Disposition means a persons inherent qualities of mind and character.

So if you condition salvation on your faith, you condition it on character. Thats works plus character, that totally denies Grace Salvation friend

Don't confuse Greek parts of speech ("action word") with the NT use/meaning of Biblical words ("faith").

In the NT usage of "works" in Ro 4:2-3, Eph 2:8-9, character is not itself action/works, where "works" is grammatically opposed to (opposite of) inner dispositions (character, faith).

 

[Brightfame52]

Don't confuse Greek parts of speech ("action word") with the NT use/meaning of Biblical words ("faith").

Character is not "works" in the NT usage of "works" in Ro 4:2-3, Eph 2:8-9, where "works" is grammatically opposed to (opposite of) "faith."

Im not confused at all, but I believe you may be. Promoting works and merit salvation

 

[AbbaLove]

Don't confuse Greek parts of speech ("action word") with the NT use/meaning of Biblical words ("faith").

In the NT usage of "works" in Ro 4:2-3, Eph 2:8-9, character is not itself action/works, where "works" is grammatically opposed to (opposite of) "faith."

Agreed, but like "performance" ... "wotks" can be fulfilled (inspired) by God (Noah, Samson, David). Thus one interprets a word to favor their theology; while interpreting the same word differently to disfavor anothers theology. Let's call these exchanges nothing more than religious pride.

You guys starting to talk in circles and talking over each other. Purposelfy misinterpreting another's meaning so as to bolster yourself. One could ask is such behaviour your own doing when you can't come to an agreement? Such is and has been the manner of Chritianity ... always trying to prove themself right; while trying to disprove another.

It's usually a matter of semantics when they both may be as right as they may be wrong when disputing scripture.

 

[Clare73]

Agreed, but like "performance" ... "wotks" can be fulfilled (inspired) by God (Noah, Samson, David).

That is not the NT use of "works" in its contrast to faith.

"Works" does not refer to God's works, it refers to man's works, about which man could boast (Ro 3:27, 4:2, 1 Co 1:29, Eph 2:9),
which is why human works are not allowed in salvation (Eph 2:8-9) and justification (Ro 3:28)--so that no one can boast (Eph 2:9).

 

[Josheb]

If a person is justified-in a state of justice- then they're necessarily saved by virtue of that fact alone.

I disagree.

The term "justification" is a legal term. It simply means to have standing, to be able to stand for judgment, to stand before the judge in order to present one's case. It does not mean the case has been decided (one way or another). No one has any ability to stand before God while dead and enslaved by sin. That person already stands in a state of condemnation (Jon 1:19). We speak of "Judgment Day," but the more accurate label is "Sentencing Day," the day when the just recompense for disobedience and sin is meted out. The judgment has already been made and the verdict is men love darkness and will not come into the light for fear their deeds will be seen for what they are; all have sinned fall short of God's glory. It is only when covered by the blood of Christ that anyone can stand before God and survive, stand before God and have any outcome other than wrath and torturous destruction.

And yet they can also walk away from that state, and from that salvation, by living unjustly, by returning to sin/the flesh, not walking by the Spirit.

Perhaps, but that has nothing to do with justification. I will say that as far as the question asked in this op's title, the faith of the unregenerate is substantively different than the faith of the regenerate and one of the biggest problems discussing the matter of faith is the abuse of scripture that occurs when verses in the epistolary written about the regenerate are removed from that context and applied to the unregenerate, especially the unregenerate atheist.

Any sound doctrine of salvation must address the problem of the atheist and the blunt fact os scripture is that very little is said about atheists. Nearly everyone in the Bible was a theist of one type or another and every Jew mentioned in the Bible was not only a theist, but a monotheist living in a God-initiated covenant foreshadowing Christological salvation. It is completely inappropriate to compare any of those categories with the God-denying, Christ-denying, sin-denying atheist.

 

[Clare73]

A prime example of one's religious pride. Wouldn't pin a medal on either one.

Humility is truth.

Love rejoices with the truth.

The truth is that your posts #1363 and #1373 are uninformed and inadequate.

lol On Gods word, what I have been witnessing to in this thread.

Butt it is God's word (Eph 2:8-9) that you are not in agreement with, which precludes discussion with me.