Former Dutch Prime Minister and his wife die 'hand in hand' by euthanasia

[trophy33]

THE HAGUE -- Dries van Agt, the Christian Democrat prime minister of the Netherlands from 1977 until 1982, has died by euthanasia, “hand in hand” together with his wife, according to the human rights organization he founded. They both were 93.

Former Dutch Prime Minister Dries van Agt and his wife die 'hand in hand' by euthanasia at age 93

A former prime minister of the Netherlands has died by euthanasia “hand in hand” together with his wife

abcnews.go.com

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

'Christian Democrat'.

 

[iluvatar5150]

93, with your spouse of 70 years sounds like a good way to go.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

93, with your spouse of 70 years sounds like a good way to go.

What is the Christian case for killing yourself Iluvatar?

 

[iluvatar5150]

What is the Christian case for killing yourself Iluvatar?

What’s the Christian case for extending it in perpetuity?

At that point of your life, I think it’s pretty ambiguous as to whether suicide is wrong or not. You’re likely no more than a couple years from a devastating medical event (the husband in the OP had already suffered a stroke iirc) that either kills you or leaves you seriously incapacitated, your spouse alone, and your family with a bunch of new burdens.

It’s hardly an easy question, but i can see an argument for letting people bow out with some dignity on their own terms.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

What’s the Christian case for extending it in perpetuity?

At that point of your life, I think it’s pretty ambiguous as to whether suicide is wrong or not. You’re likely no more than a couple years from a devastating medical event (the husband in the OP had already suffered a stroke iirc) that either kills you or leaves you seriously incapacitated, your spouse alone, and your family with a bunch of new burdens.

It’s hardly an easy question, but i can see an argument for letting people bow out with some dignity on their own terms.

The Christian case is the basic standard of being against suicide without exception. You are arguing for a new understanding which allows for exceptions and such a path cannot be limited as we see the limits pushed and extended all the time. Give an inch and a mile will be taken. The Church has always punished those who committed suicide by refusing to recognize them as Christians and bury them on consecrated Ground. It cannot endorse such a death because as Christians we strive against death and do not have the freedom to kill ourselves. This is because as Christians we live despite the suffering we go through.

Why do you seek to weaken the Christian standard on this issue? Where would you limit it? Why can't anyone commit suicide so long as they give sufficient reasons for why they're miserable or the burden they will place on others?

 

[RileyG]

May they Rest In Peace

 

[iluvatar5150]

The Christian case is the basic standard of being against suicide without exception. You are arguing for a new understanding which allows for exceptions and such a path cannot be limited as we see the limits pushed and extended all the time. Give an inch and a mile will be taken. The Church has always punished those who committed suicide by refusing to recognize them as Christians and bury them on consecrated Ground. It cannot endorse such a death because as Christians we strive against death and do not have the freedom to kill ourselves. This is because as Christians we live despite the suffering we go through.

Why do you seek to weaken the Christian standard on this issue? Where would you limit it? Why can't anyone commit suicide so long as they give sufficient reasons for why they're miserable or the burden they will place on others?

“Catholic” != “Christian”

I don’t recall ever seeing the Bible commenting on the subject of suicide. And while many protestants also agree that suicide is wrong, denying somebody’s salvation because of it and then denying them burial rights over it is rare, if not unheard of. Many protestant sects believe salvation is immutable once received.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

“Catholic” != “Christian”

I don’t recall ever seeing the Bible commenting on the subject of suicide. And while many protestants also agree that suicide is wrong, denying somebody’s salvation because of it and then denying them burial rights over it is rare, if not unheard of. Many protestant sects believe salvation is immutable once received.

I'm not talking about any modernist approach but the historic standard of the Church since antiquity. Not even the reformers approved of suicide.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I'm not talking about any modernist approach but the historic standard of the Church since antiquity. Not even the reformers approved of suicide.

The historic standard of the church was forced conversions, anti-semitism, geocentrism, and selling indulgences, so you’ll understand why I kind of don’t care what their historic standard was.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I'm not talking about any modernist approach but the historic standard of the Church since antiquity. Not even the reformers approved of suicide.

True true...

Killing ones self is equivalent to denying Christ... It's saying there's nothing to live for (God's glory) and there no hope on which to rest our hopes in.

It can be hard to keep going when things are horrible, but that's when we seek strength in Christ.

 

[RileyG]

“Catholic” != “Christian”

I don’t recall ever seeing the Bible commenting on the subject of suicide. And while many protestants also agree that suicide is wrong, denying somebody’s salvation because of it and then denying them burial rights over it is rare, if not unheard of. Many protestant sects believe salvation is immutable once received.

The poster isn’t Catholic, they are Orthodox.

It’s my understanding that the Protestant sects that believe salvation is immutable are Baptists and some Evangelicals. Most believe salvation can be lost.

 

[The Liturgist]

What is the Christian case for killing yourself Iluvatar?

There isn’t one. Scripture and all church fathers and all traditional Christian denominations are opposed to euthanasia, 100%. Essentially what has transpired here is that a couple has engaged in a suicide pact, which is a human tragedy, due to failures in the medical system to provide adequate pain management and quality of life for elderly at-risk adults who clearly were mentally ill (since a desire to commit suicide is used as one of the primary criteria for emergency mental hosptialization in civilized countries, but it seems in the Netherlands that rather than addressing issues of serious mental health, geriatric medicine and pain management for the chronicaly ill, elderly and cancer patients, they would rather just promote doctor-assisted suicide.

A case can be argued that countries which promote such things are guilty of being accessories to murder, particularly in cases of suicide pacts, where one party might have reduced culpability in the event.

Thus whereas ordinarily a Christian who does kill themselves or commit self harm has committed a horrifying sin, I think arguments could be made that people in government-run healthcare systems who are persuaded to opt for doctor assisted homicide are homicide victims rather than suicide victims.

The issues of euthanasia and sexual morality are two of the three issues where my denomination does permit itself to take a political stance, the third issue pertains to the persecution of Christians both domestically and abroad, with a particular focus on the persecution of Christians in the Middle East and the Indian sub-continent, with a view being to promote policies to assist the most severely persecuted populations among Christians of the Middle East, India, Pakistan, and surrounding countries.

 

[The Liturgist]

The historic standard of the church was forced conversions, anti-semitism, geocentrism, and selling indulgences, so you’ll understand why I kind of don’t care what their historic standard was.

This is entirely false. You are accusing all churches of engaging in problems that were specific to the Roman Catholic Church.

In particular, the Oriental Orthodox communion, which was excommunicated by the Roman Catholics since the Council of Chalcedon, and the Assyrian Church of the East, which has been independent for a similar length of time, under somewhat more complex circumstances, owing to a fifth century association with Nestorius, are innocent of these offenses, but for the most part the Eastern Orthodox have also not engaged in them to any substantial effect. Certainly not the selling of indulgences (the Greek Patriarch of Jerusalem in the early 18th century briefly sold blessings, which was inappropriate, but not on a par with what was routine before the Council of Trent banned the practice, since the Eastern Orthodox do not believe in purgatory and indeed never have). Some governments in Eastern Orhtodox countries did unfortunately engage in anti-Semitic practices, but one has to differentiate between acts of the governments and of the church, and also acts conducted by some Orthodox churches, such as the Russian church after its internal governance was seized, in violation of its ancient canon law, by Czar Peter the Great, while they existed in a state of effective captivity, with their bishops lacking the freedom to engage in autonomous action.

In general, I greatly resent it when people disparage traditional Christianity as a whole based on misconduct specific to Western churches.

 

[The Liturgist]

“Catholic” != “Christian”

I don’t recall ever seeing the Bible commenting on the subject of suicide. And while many protestants also agree that suicide is wrong, denying somebody’s salvation because of it and then denying them burial rights over it is rare, if not unheard of. Many protestant sects believe salvation is immutable once received.

Wait a second, are you denying that Roman Catholics are Christians?

To be clear, I am not Roman Catholic, however, I would never accuse Roman Catholics of not being Christian. And I would further argue that under Popes Benedict XVI and John Paul II, the moral theology taught by the Roman Catholic Church was in accord with that of the other traditional Christian denominations such as the various Orthodox denominations and the confessional Lutherans.

I believe my traditional Catholic friend @chevyontheriver and my Lutheran friends @MarkRohfrietsch and @JM would agree concerning most issues of morality, for example, the inherent wrongness of sodomy and the intrinsically disordered characteristic of sexual deviance as a whole, the appalling nature of abortion, and the evil of euthanasia. What is more, we also see a very high degree of overlap in terms of the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, the Presbyterian Church in America and other traditional Calvinists, and the Southern Baptist Convention on these issues of sexual morality.

And when it comes to these issues, the persecuted Christians of the East, whether Eastern Orthodox, Assyrian, Oriental Orthodox or Eastern Catholic are equally aghast at the change in the west on positions like the inappropriate marriage of homosexuals, actions which in several instances have led to incidents of violence directed towards Middle Eastern Christians in Islamic countries, who fall victim to false accusations by Muslims of guilt-by-association. So to the extent that Western mainline Protestant churches embrace euthanasia and sexual immorality, they actively endanger Middle Eastern Christians, for the Islamist persecutors will not hesitate to generalize among all Christians, as they are influenced by those looking for excuses for violence, excuses that historically, the Western churches did not give them, but this has recently changed and in a tragic way. Additionally I would also note that the massive decline in membership among mainline churches is highly correlated with the embrace of innovative doctrine on issues like euthanasia and sexual morality.

 

[The Liturgist]

I don’t recall ever seeing the Bible commenting on the subject of suicide.

Here is a resource that should be shared with any Christian, regardless of their age, considering suicide, which makes a strong case against it on Scriptural grounds: What is the Christian view of suicide? What does the Bible say about suicide? | GotQuestions.org

It is imperative that, in order to save lives, including the extremely vulnerable lives of elderly people who are at-risk for self harm due to conditions including pain, social isolation et cetera, every effort be made to connect such people with the resources they need, medically and otherwise, so that they do not harm each other.

Every life is equally sacred regardless of the youth or age of the person in question.

 

[RileyG]

The historic standard of the church was forced conversions, anti-semitism, geocentrism, and selling indulgences, so you’ll understand why I kind of don’t care what their historic standard was.

You're thinking of the medieval Church which had many corrupt practices. But even so, the faithful did not participate in those practices.

 

[RileyG]

93, with your spouse of 70 years sounds like a good way to go.

Our lives are not our own. God and God alone can decide when our natural lives end.

I would never judge someone for taking their own life, I think it's quite sad, really.

 

[RileyG]

Here is a resource that should be shared with any Christian, regardless of their age, considering suicide, which makes a strong case against it on Scriptural grounds: What is the Christian view of suicide? What does the Bible say about suicide? | GotQuestions.org

It is imperative that, in order to save lives, including the extremely vulnerable lives of elderly people who are at-risk for self harm due to conditions including pain, social isolation et cetera, every effort be made to connect such people with the resources they need, medically and otherwise, so that they do not harm each other.

Every life is equally sacred regardless of the youth or age of the person in question.

I had a relative that committed suicide. I keep him in my eternal prayers.

 

[The Liturgist]

I had a relative that committed suicide. I keep him in my eternal prayers.

Good for you. I can add them to my prayer list via their baptismal name!