Is believing/faith a work ?

[Halbhh]

Calvin got it wrong in his theory of election and reprobation, which is often referred to as 'double predestination' -- the mistake of Calvin, and also recognized as a heresy by some churches. ( CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Predestinarianism) But also seen as wrong in most churches....

It is enough to just point out it's mistaken, and encourage everyone to try to avoid having only prejudicial viewpoint from a single church denomination (else it would become a mere pointless argument, such as between various (many) denominations and the Reformed churches, over esoteric questions, argument without any fruit or profit....). (and in reality, many in Reformed churches don't make the mistake of believing in double predestination...)

Instead, we should encourage everyone to simply read fully through the scriptures, and not read to merely prove some doctrine, as if scripture was only a neutral resource (like a pile of lumber) to use for our own preferred outcomes we choose.....

While it's not required that Christians be able to know which church has which esoteric doctrine correct, the good thing we should encourage is that people just read with listening.

So that they better hear the intended meaning of full passages -- as such as in Ephesians 1 and similar about our salvation being predestined (we are chosen in Christ from before the world!) -- passages often meant to strengthen our courage about the ultimate hope for Christians in a world where Christianity is often rejected by many...

 

[John Mullally]

Im addressing it with this, the Gospel is a word of Salvation to the saved, it announces to them their Salvation Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Salvation here is in the Genitive case , and its preceded by the genitive personal pronoun YOUR indicating possession of Salvation, and its after that they believe.

Again, you didn't address my points.

Your first paragraph (above) says that the Gospel is a word of Salvation to the saved - which means it is just an announcement telling the saved that they have been saved. An announcement just identifies status - it has no power.

Your third paragraph says one takes possession of Salvation after one believes. By believe you must be talking about the Gospel. This changes the believers status - that is power as seen in John 5:24.

Which one is it?

 

[Brightfame52]

Again, you didn't address my points.

Your first paragraph (above) says that the Gospel is a word of Salvation to the saved - which means it is just an announcement telling the saved that they have been saved. An announcement just identifies status - it has no power.

Your third paragraph says one takes possession of Salvation after one believes. By believe you must be talking about the Gospel. This changes the believers status - that is power as seen in John 5:24.

Which one is it?

Again the Gospel is a word of Salvation to the saved, Note its the Gospel of their Salvation which they believed Eph 1:13

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

And I showed its the power of God to the saved 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

 

[AbbaLove]

A better translation would be "action". You are defining "works" as mental and physical effort by religious mankind. It's as if you don't believe the works/actions, a supernatural Gift(s) of a born again new creation in Christ Jesus (as prompted by the Holy Spirit) are still active today. According to your definition of a religious or seeker-sensitive Christian the reading and memorization of scripture might even be considered the mental "work" to a nominal believer.

James taught the relationship between faith and works (action). 17 Even so faith, if it hath not action, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, "Thou hast faith, and I have works": shew me thy faith without thy actions, and I will shew thee my faith by my actions. (James 2:17-18)

James is referring to the personal relationship of a mature Believer as a bond servant to Christ Jesus. The result(s) of Paul's ministry were only possible by the prompting of the Holy Spirit as a new creation in Christ. The nine Gifts of the Holy Spirit are still active today ... unless you are a cessationist as any "works" by religious man becomes the norm.

 

[Brightfame52]

@AbbaLove

It's as if you don't believe the works/actions, a supernatural Gift(s) of a born again new creation in Christ Jesus (as prompted by the Holy Spirit) are still active today

Has nothing to do with that. Im saying if you condition your salvation based upon anything you did, to include believing, its works salvation, and a denial of grace salvation.

 

[Josheb]

Is believing/faith a work?

It depends.

The answer depends on how belief/faith is defined. Intellectual assent is a work, and in the unregenerate it is and can only be a work of the sinner's flesh. Conversely, faith gifted by God worked by God for His purpose is still a work, but it is not the work of sinful flesh.

I'd like to make an observation before the thread gets lengthy. Nowhere does the Bible explicitly state anyone is saved by faith. The prooftext of Ephesians 2:5-10 tells us we are saved by grace through faith. The scriptural commentary about faith is mostly about justification, not salvation. We are saved through faith, and we are justified by faith. The two are completely different statements and conflating them is a mistake both scripturally and logically.

• Saved by grace.
• Saved through faith.
• Justified by faith.
• Saved for works (planned in advance, having been created in Christ).

All are different aspects of salvation that should not be conflated or confused.

 

[fhansen]

It depends.

The answer depends on how belief/faith is defined. Intellectual assent is a work, and in the unregenerate it is and can only be a work of the sinner's flesh. Conversely, faith gifted by God worked by God for His purpose is still a work, but it is not the work of sinful flesh.

I'd like to make an observation before the thread gets lengthy. Nowhere does the Bible explicitly state anyone is saved by faith. The prooftext of Ephesians 2:5-10 tells us we are saved by grace through faith. The scriptural commentary about faith is mostly about justification, not salvation. We are saved through faith, and we are justified by faith. The two are completely different statements and conflating them is a mistake both scripturally and logically.

• Saved by grace.
• Saved through faith.
• Justified by faith.
• Saved for works (planned in advance, having been created in Christ).

All are different aspects of salvation that should not be conflated or confused.

If a person is justified-in a state of justice- then they're necessarily saved by virtue of that fact alone. And yet they can also walk away from that state, and from that salvation, by living unjustly, by returning to sin/the flesh, not walking by the Spirit.

 

[RDKirk]

It depends.

The answer depends on how belief/faith is defined. Intellectual assent is a work, and in the unregenerate it is and can only be a work of the sinner's flesh. Conversely, faith gifted by God worked by God for His purpose is still a work, but it is not the work of sinful flesh.

I'd like to make an observation before the thread gets lengthy. Nowhere does the Bible explicitly state anyone is saved by faith. The prooftext of Ephesians 2:5-10 tells us we are saved by grace through faith. The scriptural commentary about faith is mostly about justification, not salvation. We are saved through faith, and we are justified by faith. The two are completely different statements and conflating them is a mistake both scripturally and logically.

• Saved by grace.
• Saved through faith.
• Justified by faith.
• Saved for works (planned in advance, having been created in Christ).

All are different aspects of salvation that should not be conflated or confused.

Romans 4:4,5, Paul specifically tells us that faith and belief are not works.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Josheb

The answer depends on how belief/faith is defined. Intellectual assent is a work, and in the unregenerate it is and can only be a work of the sinner's flesh. Conversely, faith gifted by God worked by God for His purpose is still a work, but it is not the work of sinful flesh.

So far I agree

I'd like to make an observation before the thread gets lengthy. Nowhere does the Bible explicitly state anyone is saved by faith. The prooftext of Ephesians 2:5-10 tells us we are saved by grace through faith. The scriptural commentary about faith is mostly about justification, not salvation. We are saved through faith, and we are justified by faith. The two are completely different statements and conflating them is a mistake both scripturally and logically.

• Saved by grace.
• Saved through faith.
• Justified by faith.
• Saved for works (planned in advance, having been created in Christ).

All are different aspects of salvation that should not be conflated or confused.

So is Faith ever the condition man must meet to be saved or Justified before God ?

 

[bbbbbbb]

@Josheb



So far I agree



So is Faith ever the condition man must meet to be saved or Justified before God ?

It is rather like asking the question, "Are copper wires necessary for me to get light from a fixture in my house." The answer, obviously, is of course. However, having copper in my house, whether in wire form or in tube form as in plumbing hardly means that my bathtub will become a source of brilliant light or even that my light bulb will light up. The essential factor is electricity. The copper wires are internal to my house and are merely conduits for the energy which causes the light to be produced. I can have a fully wired house, but without electricity, there can be no light.

 

[Clare73]

It depends.

The answer depends on how belief/faith is defined. Intellectual assent is a work,

CONTRARE. . .in the NT they are opposed to one another, not the same as one another.

and in the unregenerate it is and can only be a work of the sinner's flesh. Conversely,
faith gifted by God worked by God for His purpose is still a work, but it is not the work of sinful flesh.

Not according to the NT. . .

In the NT, work is a physical performance, everywhere set in opposition to inner disposition; e.g., faith (Ro 1:17, 3:20-22, 28, 4:2-3, 5, 13, 9:30-32, 10:6-8, Gal 2:16, 3:22, Eph 2:8-9, 2 Tim 1:9, Tit 3:5).
Physical performance results from inner disposition, but in the NT the disposition is not "work," only performance is "work."
In the NT, hope, joy, trust, confidence, fear, doubt, decisions, etc. are dispositions, they are not works (physical performances).
Works are necessary for true faith, but those works of true faith do not save. Only the faith saves (Eph 2:8-9).
Works of faith are simply the proof of the true faith, which alone saves.

I'd like to make an observation before the thread gets lengthy. Nowhere does the Bible explicitly state anyone is saved by faith. The prooftext of Ephesians 2:5-10 tells us we are saved by grace through faith. The scriptural commentary about faith is mostly about justification, not salvation. We are saved through faith, and we are justified by faith. The two are completely different statements and conflating them is a mistake both scripturally and logically.

• Saved by grace.
• Saved through faith.
• Justified by faith.
• Saved for works (planned in advance, having been created in Christ).

All are different aspects of salvation that should not be conflated or confused.

Just as "justified by faith" is the same as "justified through faith."
Both faith and justification are the works of God, neither are the work of man.
Without stating it every time, "saved by faith" is understood to be an operation of grace (Eph 2:8-9).
There is no confusion on the matter in Christian understanding.

 

[Brightfame52]

@bbbbbbb

It is rather like asking the question, "Are copper wires necessary for me to get light from a fixture in my house." The answer, obviously, is of course.

Then thats works.

 

[Brightfame52]

CONTRARE. . .

Not according to the NT. . .

In the NT, work is a physical performance, everywhere set in opposition to inner disposition; e.g., faith (Ro 1:17, 3:20-22, 28, 4:2-3, 5, 13, 9:30-32, 10:6-8, Gal 2:16, 3:22, Eph 2:8-9, 2 Tim 1:9, Tit 3:5).
Physical performance results from inner disposition, but in the NT the disposition is not "work," only performance is "work."
In the NT, hope, joy, trust, confidence, fear, doubt, decisions, etc. are dispositions, they are not works (physical performances).


Where "justified by faith" is the same as "justified through faith."
Both faith and justification are the works of God, neither are the work of man.
Without stating it every time, "saved by faith" is understood to be an operation of grace (Eph 2:8-9).
There is no confusion on the matter in Christian understanding.

So is believing a performance ? Its usually a action verb, and or a imperative to do

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

So is believing a performance ? Its usually a action verb, and or a imperative to do

What exactly is faith? Let’s consider the Greek word in the New Testament that we translate faith. That word is πιστις. Look at the first four letters, πιστ-. This is the stem, and it carries the meaning of the word. In this case, the stem means “faith”. The last two letters, -ις, form the ending. Greek endings differentiate parts of speech. In this case, the ending tells us that Πιστις is a noun. The same stem with the ending, -ευω, is a verb. With -ος as its ending, it is an adjective. In Greek, to form the negative of a word they may add an alpha-prefix (α-). This is like our word atypical, which means “not typical.”

​

	Basic Form​	Negative Form​
Noun​	πιστ-ις: “confidence,” “trust,” “faith”​	α-πιστ-ια: “unfaithfulness,” “distrust,” “doubt”​
Verb​	πιστ-ευω: “to trust,” “to rely on,” “to believe”​	α-πιστ-εω: “to refuse to believe,” “to be distrustful,” “to be unbelieving”​
Adjective​	πιστ-ος: “trusting,” “faithful,” “trustworthy”​	α-πιστ-ος: “distrustful,” “unfaithful,” “unreliable”​

Look at the noun, verb, and adjectival forms of the Greek word for faith in the table above. Notice that the stem (πιστ-) is the same in each instance, and that the negative forms all have the alpha-prefix (α-).

This table helps clarify the meaning of faith. Faith can be mysterious and hard to understand, or twisted, and made even harder to understand. But the table makes it clear that if a person has faith, it simply means that he has confidence or trust in someone or something. To be without faith means that he lacks confidence or that he refuses to believe. And a faithful person is someone who trusts someone or something, or one who is trustworthy. He is the opposite of one who is distrustful or unreliable.

As faith relates to our interaction with God, it means that we trust Him, rely on Him, and have confidence in Him. Faith towards God does not start with us, but always starts with Him. God initiates conversations with us. He communicates with us (and on our behalf to the Father) in words that defy speech (Rom. 8:26), and He lets us decide how we respond to Him. If we receive and believe what He says, then we respond in faith. If we reject what He says or refuse to believe, then we respond in unbelief. Therefore, faith is not mysterious or hard to understand. Faith simply means that we believe God when He communicates with us.

 

[Clare73]

So is believing a performance ? Its usually a action verb, and or a imperative to do

It's not about grammar, it's about NT doctrine.

The NT's setting of faith against performance (post #1351) means that faith (believing) in the NT is not a performance, it is a disposition, which always results in performance (obedience), but it is not the performance (obedience) itself, it is only its source.

 

[Brightfame52]

What exactly is faith? Let’s consider the Greek word in the New Testament that we translate faith. That word is πιστις. Look at the first four letters, πιστ-. This is the stem, and it carries the meaning of the word. In this case, the stem means “faith”. The last two letters, -ις, form the ending. Greek endings differentiate parts of speech. In this case, the ending tells us that Πιστις is a noun. The same stem with the ending, -ευω, is a verb. With -ος as its ending, it is an adjective. In Greek, to form the negative of a word they may add an alpha-prefix (α-). This is like our word atypical, which means “not typical.”

​

	Basic Form​	Negative Form​
Noun​	πιστ-ις: “confidence,” “trust,” “faith”​	α-πιστ-ια: “unfaithfulness,” “distrust,” “doubt”​
Verb​	πιστ-ευω: “to trust,” “to rely on,” “to believe”​	α-πιστ-εω: “to refuse to believe,” “to be distrustful,” “to be unbelieving”​
Adjective​	πιστ-ος: “trusting,” “faithful,” “trustworthy”​	α-πιστ-ος: “distrustful,” “unfaithful,” “unreliable”​

Look at the noun, verb, and adjectival forms of the Greek word for faith in the table above. Notice that the stem (πιστ-) is the same in each instance, and that the negative forms all have the alpha-prefix (α-).

This table helps clarify the meaning of faith. Faith can be mysterious and hard to understand, or twisted, and made even harder to understand. But the table makes it clear that if a person has faith, it simply means that he has confidence or trust in someone or something. To be without faith means that he lacks confidence or that he refuses to believe. And a faithful person is someone who trusts someone or something, or one who is trustworthy. He is the opposite of one who is distrustful or unreliable.

As faith relates to our interaction with God, it means that we trust Him, rely on Him, and have confidence in Him. Faith towards God does not start with us, but always starts with Him. God initiates conversations with us. He communicates with us (and on our behalf to the Father) in words that defy speech (Rom. 8:26), and He lets us decide how we respond to Him. If we receive and believe what He says, then we respond in faith. If we reject what He says or refuse to believe, then we respond in unbelief. Therefore, faith is not mysterious or hard to understand. Faith simply means that we believe God when He communicates with us.

So would you agree that believing is a performance, a verb, something one does ?

 

[Clare73]

What exactly is faith?

Saving faith is belief in and trust on the atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteous (justified).

Faith is not an outward physical performance (work), it is an inner disposition, just as hope, joy, trust, confidence, fear, doubt, decisions, etc. are inner dispositions, and are not outward performances, which outward performances are the works/results of the inner disposition. . .one is the source, the other is the performance emanating from that source.
Works and faith are not the same thing, one being outer performance and the other being inner disposition, one being outcome and the other being source. The fire is not the melted butter.

 

[Brightfame52]

The NT's setting of faith against performance (post #1351) means that faith (believing) in the NT is not a performance, it is a disposition, which always results in performance (obedience), but it is not the performance (obedience) itself, it is only its source.

I believe to believe is an action, something a person does, an act of obedience Rom 10:16

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

If we make salvation conditioned on our obeying, believing, its works, anathema

 

[Clare73]

I believe to believe is an action, something a person does, an act of obedience Rom 10:16

Not according to NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, the body of Christ.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

They did not obey because they did not have faith.
One can also have faith and not obey.

If we make salvation conditioned on our obeying, believing, its works, anathema

Faith is not an act of obedience, faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:, Ro 12:3) within the human spirit, resulting in obedience.
The source (cause) and its effects are not the same thing.

The fire is not the melted butter.

 

[Brightfame52]

Not according to NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, the body of Christ.

Faith is not an act of obedience, faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:, Ro 12:3) within the human spirit, resulting in obedience.
The source (cause) and its effects are not the same thing.

The fire is not the melted butter.

Believing is an act of obedience. And obedience is connected to Faith Heb 11 8


By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

So if we condition Salvation on Faith, which is something in us, thats merit salvation as well