Honest question of 1 Timothy 2:11-12

[lanceleo]

It isn't - and never was.
Women have always looked after the children, nursed them and sick relatives etc - and many more things besides. In the Bible, Rachel was a shepherdess, Genesis 29:9, Naaman had a slave girl, who advised how her master could be cured of leprosy, the woman in Proverbs 21 worked hard, cared for her family and the poor, Martha offered hospitality and Dorcas sewed clothes, did good and helped the poor.
It was a woman who started the nursing profession, while another woman was instrumental in prison reform. The nursing profession was, for years, dominated by women - it took a while for men to enter it and be accepted.
Many women have been sent onto the mission field.

We are all called to care for one another, visit the sick, help the poor and stand up for the weak and downtrodden - just as God does.

​

Ephesians 4:11
King James Version
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

The Greek work for pastors - προφήτης, is a masculine noun...

 

[Peacemaker1]

here guys, look at what your discussion means you are breaking...



2 Timothy 2:
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

[Peacemaker1]

ok, if there is agreement, we stop strife this way...



Proverbs 22:10
Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease.

Proverbs 26:20
Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.

 

[Peacemaker1]

Proverbs 20:3
It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling.

 

[Peacemaker1]

its easy for us all to have opinion, but not so easy to love peace instead.

 

[Strong in Him]

​

Ephesians 4:11
King James Version
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

The Greek work for pastors - προφήτης, is a masculine noun...

Yet women still had roles or prophecy, teaching, caring for others and were accepted as the Apostle's co-workers.

 

[Rose_bud]

Doesn't that mean that women sin when they sing hymns in church, or hymns that have the Alto and Soprano parts (which are women's voices) are in that regard heretical?

No, women are not sinning when they exercise the gifts God has given them for the edification of the Body of Christ. Whether this be the gift of teaching, preaching, singing etc. If all is done to the glory of God then no it is not sin.

I understand that passage to mean that women are to learn in silence, not speechless, but as every good student, as I'm sure Paul was with Gamaliel, submissive and quietly reflective of what is being taught to maintain order. As some has pointed out the context of the Ephesus was where women had certain "authority" when it came to how things were done in their worship of foreign gods.

So, Paul writes the pastoral letters to Timothy to encourage him in his calling. To be aware of false teaching, provide sound doctrine and also to provide guidance in orderly worship.
Women I believe had to learn in silence, ie with a calmness of spirit the Christian doctrine until they had matured in the faith.

1 Timothy 2:3-7...stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith. The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

Timothy must of had his work cut out for him as a young pastor..with angry and disputing men, and women given to excess and idle chatter.

 

[Strong in Him]

here guys, look at what your discussion means you are breaking...



2 Timothy 2:
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

No strife here as far as I'm concerned - only a debate/study of Scripture.

 

[lanceleo]

Yet women still had roles or prophecy, teaching, caring for others and were accepted as the Apostle's co-workers.

My emphasis is on pastoral role.

 

[Strong in Him]

My emphasis is on pastoral role.

How are you defining that?
I have a pastoral role; I visit, phone or send cards to those who are unwell, as do many others in my church. It's not all left up to the Minister.

As with many churches, we have more female members than male. So of course women do most of the pastoral work.
In my denomination, lay preachers can also baptise and take funerals.

 

[lanceleo]

How are you defining that?
I have a pastoral role; I visit, phone or send cards to those who are unwell, as do many others in my church. It's not all left up to the Minister.

By being the head of the church. There are certain tasks that may overlap with that of a pastor that can be performed by members holding other roles.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Doesn't that mean that women sin when they sing hymns in church, or hymns that have the Alto and Soprano parts (which are women's voices) are in that regard heretical?

Learning in silence means just that.

If you're at church and the Pastor says something you don't understand, you don't interrupt in order to get clarification, you just note the issue and wait for an appropriate time to address it.

Also, arguing/debating points, again I believe this is during services where teaching/learning is going on, is completely unacceptable.

If there are things being taught that a woman thinks are being taught incorrectly there are appropriate times and ways to address these, and in a public situation where a teacher is teaching isn't one of those.

It's a passage about the decorum of women during specific services. Not anything else.

 

[Strong in Him]

By being the head of the church. There are certain tasks that may overlap with that of a pastor that can be performed by members holding other roles.

Ok.
But it doesn't change the fact that God has been calling, is calling and can call women to this role.

 

[Peacemaker1]

you are engaging in the same debate that are foretold to be a sign of the end of the world, what purpose do you think you guys are fulfilling apart from the one thats told.

i see that all on this forum cannot be reasoned with, then let the scriptures testify against each and every one of you.



Romans 1:
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

 

[Peacemaker1]

Romans 1:
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[Strong in Him]

you are engaging in the same debate that are foretold to be a sign of the end of the world,

There's nothing at all wrong with debate.
Threads/posts/statements that I disagree with usually teach me the most and cause me to search the Scriptures to learn the truth. I now know several verses, and Bible references, by heart, having written them out so many times.
Paul debated a lot with both Jews and Gentiles. Some non Christians may only be persuaded by debate and logical argument.
Debates aren't a problem unless they descend into name calling, insults and false accusations. They are not, in themselves, a sign of the end of the world.

Yes, this topic has often been debated on these forums. Yes, the subject will probably not be resolved and those involved won't change their minds. But we might all learn something and come to respect another person's point of view.