Honest question of 1 Timothy 2:11-12

[Endeavourer]

I don't think that Paul's teaching about women being silent in the congregation, applies
to anything but teaching, and prophesying in the congregation.

How do you explain 1 Cor 11 where women are to not have shorn hair (like the Artemis temple prostitutes did) when they prophecy? That text seems to directly contradict your premise.

 

[oikonomia]

Doesn't that mean that women sin when they sing hymns in church, or hymns that have the Alto and Soprano parts (which are women's voices) are in that regard heretical?

No.
Nor do they sin if they become God in life and in nature and expression but not in His Godhead.

That makes God extremely happy.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The problem is that many people today equate these New Testament letters from St Paul, with the modern-day education
systems of the West.

They weren't the same.

During St Paul's time, education was more than just attending classes in various subjects. Rather,
the student became the primary responsibility of the teacher and was raised into manhood
by the teacher. The teacher was responsible for his student's life, not merely his academic
pursuits. As a result, in St Paul's time a woman could not teach a male how to become a man,
because she had no idea what it was like to be a man. Also, the duties between men and women
was far different than what we have today. Life was hard for both men and women. Women took
care of raising children and doing domestic chores, while men did the dangerous back breaking work
and fighting that was part of life.

Scripture has to be interpreted in historical context rather than read laterally from an English translation.

 

[lanceleo]

Doesn't that mean that women sin when they sing hymns in church, or hymns that have the Alto and Soprano parts (which are women's voices) are in that regard heretical?

When women are kept in silence, it does not mean she is silent in everything. There’s a context you have to find out. The context is what she has to be silence about. The context is (in verse 12) when it comes to authority over a man. The woman cannot have an authority where she is in charge of a man. Why? Because of the curse from God. Look at verse 13 (Tim) and 34 (Cor). What did God curse Eve? She is supposed to be in subjection to her husband.

Does that mean women cannot sing hymn or give testimony? No. Women can do those, bible says let everyone has breath praise the Lord. It does not mean women can’t pray, can’t teach, speak out for God, or ask questions in a proper environment where questions are invited, it does mean in the public worship of the church these things are set down as God’s standards.

Psalm 150:6​

6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord. Praise ye the Lord.​

​

Paul wrote Titus and instructed him on the role women had as teachers to other women.

Titus 2:3-5​

King James Version​

3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;​

4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,​

5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.​

 

[Strong in Him]

The context is (in verse 12) when it comes to authority over a man.

It doesn't say "have authority over a man", it says "snatch authority from a man".

The woman cannot have an authority where she is in charge of a man.

You mean like Deborah - the God appointed judge who ruled the nation - did?
How is preaching God's word snatching authority from a man? Jesus chose Mary Magdalene to take the Good News to his male disciples.

Why? Because of the curse from God. Look at verse 13 (Tim) and 34 (Cor). What did God curse Eve? She is supposed to be in subjection to her husband.

Her husband - yes; every man everywhere - no.

it does mean in the public worship of the church these things are set down as God’s standards.

No, it doesn't.
There were female prophets in the OT. When Josiah wanted a word from the Lord he called his priests, who chose to go the Huldah the prophetess, 2 Kings 22:14.

Paul wrote Titus and instructed him on the role women had as teachers to other women.

Yet Priscilla taught a male disciple; Apollos.
Yes, I know she was with her husband but a) it's quite possible she could have done some of the teaching herself, and b) if women CAN teach when with their husbands, that implies that some women can be preachers.

3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;​

4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,​

Some can still do that; some of us don't have children so cannot teach others about theirs.

This doesn't mean that God can't call women to preach his word, just as Miriam, Deborah, Huldah, Isaiah's wife, the woman at the well, Mary Magdalene, Phoebe and others did.

 

[Stephen3141]

To be clear, I think that the verses mentioned in this thread (1 Timothy 2.11-12) deal with
teaching and exercising authority, in the congregation.

A woman covering her head in the congregation,
is a different topic.

 

[lanceleo]

It doesn't say "have authority over a man", it says "snatch authority from a man".

I agree. Do they mean any different?

You mean like Deborah - the God appointed judge who ruled the nation - did?
How is preaching God's word snatching authority from a man? Jesus chose Mary Magdalene to take the Good News to his male disciples.

Deborah was an incredible woman and like you said she was appointed by God. She was appointed during a time where men were cowards. God can just call about anyone for his purposes. Mary took the good news to the disciples but she was sent as an "ambassador" rather than a pastor.

Yet Priscilla taught a male disciple; Apollos.
Yes, I know she was with her husband but a) it's quite possible she could have done some of the teaching herself, and b) if women CAN teach when with their husbands, that implies that some women can be preachers.

I don't deny that women can preach. The context is preaching in the setting of a church, setting doctrinal standards, as women are more prone to being deceived.

1 Tim 2:11-14​

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.​

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.​

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.​

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.​

 

[Strong in Him]

I agree. Do they mean any different?

Yes - "usurp" means to snatch, or grab, using force.
A person may choose not to recognise authority, despise authority or take no notice of authority - how can they violently snatch it from another person?
ALL authority was given to Jesus after the resurrection, Matthew 28:19, and he can give people authority to do things/act as he please.

Deborah was an incredible woman and like you said she was appointed by God. She was appointed during a time where men were cowards.

That is the standard response to Deborah's leadership, certainly. But God can call whoever he pleases - Gideon wasn't exactly full of faith when he was called.

Mary took the good news to the disciples but she was sent as an "ambassador" rather than a pastor.

Doesn't matter. She was chosen to be the first witness to the resurrection, told to go into a room full of men, tell them what she had seen and give them a message. She was teaching them - "Jesus is alive" - and telling them what to do - "go to Jerusalem". Both of which are, apparently, not allowed.

I don't deny that women can preach. The context is preaching in the setting of a church,

ALL believers are the church.
Christians who meet in Bible study groups, coffee shops, Christian Unions, fresh expressions of church etc - are church.

1 Tim 2:11-14​

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.​

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.​

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.​

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.​

You realise that Eve hadn't been created when God gave Adam the command about not eating from the tree?
That we are not told that Eve heard the command directly from God?
That when she repeated the command to the serpent, she got it wrong, Genesis 2:17, Genesis 3:17?
That in the NT women were not allowed to learn, yet Paul says "LET the women learn"?
That if someone knows something, because they have been taught, it is far harder to deceive them?

Besides, not allowing women to preach/be in leadership because Eve was deceived, makes no sense.
Adam wasn't deceived; he deliberately disobeyed God. So men should be disqualified from teaching. Who wants a teacher/preacher who has heard God speak, knows his will but deliberately disobeys him?

 

[Peacemaker1]

You realise that Eve hadn't been created when God gave Adam the command about not eating from the tree?
That we are not told that Eve heard the command directly from God?
That when she repeated the command to the serpent, she got it wrong, Genesis 2:17, Genesis 3:17?
That in the NT women were not allowed to learn, yet Paul says "LET the women learn"?
That if someone knows something, because they have been taught, it is far harder to deceive them?

Besides, not allowing women to preach/be in leadership because Eve was deceived, makes no sense.
Adam wasn't deceived; he deliberately disobeyed God. So men should be disqualified from teaching. Who wants a teacher/preacher who has heard God speak, knows his will but deliberately disobeys him?

Eve is one with Adam, taken from man, so they are not two, they are one.

Eve heard directly from the serpent, this is why all men died.


Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.



The same serpent tries to corrupt man through the same subtilty, to make the same situation of being beguiled through the serpent and Eve again.



2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.




That women are not quick to learn, that is why it is told if they will learn any thing let them ask their husband at home.



1 Corinthians 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.




Adam has been told this too...



Micah 7:5 Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.

Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

 

[lanceleo]

It doesn't say "have authority over a man", it says "snatch authority from a man".

Whether it's "have" or "usurp" , the outcome of it places them in a position of authority over their man.

That is the standard response to Deborah's leadership, certainly. But God can call whoever he pleases - Gideon wasn't exactly full of faith when he was called.

Yes God can call whoever he wishes - even a donkey. That does not warrant animals a place in our congregation, does it?

Doesn't matter. She was chosen to be the first witness to the resurrection, told to go into a room full of men, tell them what she had seen and give them a message. She was teaching them - "Jesus is alive" - and telling them what to do - "go to Jerusalem". Both of which are, apparently, not allowed.

She was personally and specifically called by Jesus. I agree, she should do what was asked in that situation. What happens when there is no calling? Was that not why Paul laid down the rules for the church to adhere to?

ALL believers are the church.
Christians who meet in Bible study groups, coffee shops, Christian Unions, fresh expressions of church etc - are church.

Doesn't matter, 1 Tim 2:11-14 still applies.

That in the NT women were not allowed to learn,

Source?

Besides, not allowing women to preach/be in leadership because Eve was deceived, makes no sense.
Adam wasn't deceived; he deliberately disobeyed God. So men should be disqualified from teaching. Who wants a teacher/preacher who has heard God speak, knows his will but deliberately disobeys him?

Again, it's not about denying women the rights to be in leadership, the context is in a position of authority over men.

 

[Strong in Him]

Whether it's "have" or "usurp" , the outcome of it places them in a position of authority over their man.

It's a big difference. The verse says "I [Paul] do not allow a woman to usurp authority over a man".
As a Jew, Paul was well aware that Deborah had been judge over the whole nation. He also knew that Esther had been a queen and used her influence (beauty, actually) to persuade the king to change his mind and not slaughter the Jews. They still celebrate this each year - the feast of Purim.

How is preaching God's word usurping authority from a man?

Yes God can call whoever he wishes - even a donkey.

Yes - and the message that he gave through that donkey was valid and authoritative.
Ditto with all those who are called by him. Including women.

She was personally and specifically called by Jesus. I agree, she should do what was asked in that situation. What happens when there is no calling?

No one - man, woman or child - should assume to do something if there is no calling from God.
That is not the case for the female preachers I know - including myself.

Doesn't matter, 1 Tim 2:11-14 still applies.

According to your interpretation.

Source?

Several commentaries.
It's why Paul said "let a woman learn ...."

Again, it's not about denying women the rights to be in leadership, the context is in a position of authority over men.

That's the argument though; women can't preach because Eve was deceived. That's why those verses are quoted.
You even drew attention to the fact of her deception.

And, again, the verse does not say they cannot "be in a position of authority over" - otherwise God contradicted himself because he appointed Deborah. The verse says "cannot usurp authority over". And it's Paul who says that he doesn't allow it - he is not in a position to object.

 

[lanceleo]

It's a big difference. The verse says "I [Paul] do not allow a woman to usurp authority over a man".
As a Jew, Paul was well aware that Deborah had been judge over the whole nation. He also knew that Esther had been a queen and used her influence (beauty, actually) to persuade the king to change his mind and not slaughter the Jews. They still celebrate this each year - the feast of Purim.

How is preaching God's word usurping authority from a man?

Deborah and Esther have nothing to do with this. You are assuming Paul had them in mind when writing down this verse. You cannot usurp authority if you do not "have" desire to do so in the first place.

Please note that women's preaching has nothing to do with usurping authority. It's when women take on roles in church that belong to men, like being a pastor/teacher. Paul is not forbidding them from teaching in other appropriate conditions or circumstances

Yes - and the message that he gave through that donkey was valid and authoritative.
Ditto with all those who are called by him. Including women.

Yes when God calls, it overrides everything else, but that's only when He calls. We cannot use the examples of a few isolated cases of women called by God in the OT and apply it to every woman.

No one - man, woman or child - should assume to do something if there is no calling from God.
That is not the case for the female preachers I know - including myself.

Exactly, so we have to be very prudent.

That's the argument though; women can't preach because Eve was deceived. That's why those verses are quoted.
You even drew attention to the fact of her deception.

And, again, the verse does not say they cannot "be in a position of authority over" - otherwise God contradicted himself because he appointed Deborah. The verse says "cannot usurp authority over". And it's Paul who says that he doesn't allow it - he is not in a position to object.

As explained above, God has the authority to override everything.

 

[Strong in Him]

Deborah and Esther have nothing to do with this. You are assuming Paul had them in mind when writing down this verse.

No, I'm saying that if Paul was writing a command from God that women shouldn't have authority over men, that would contradict the fact that God called Deborah to be judge over the nation.

It's when women take on roles in church that belong to men, like being a pastor/teacher.

If God thought those roles "belonged" to men, he wouldn't call some women, and give them the gifts, to do them.

Yes when God calls, it overrides everything else, but that's only when He calls. We cannot use the examples of a few isolated cases of women called by God in the OT and apply it to every woman.

I never said that every woman is called to be a pastor/teacher.
If a woman is not called to this, she shouldn't do it - neither should a man.

Exactly, so we have to be very prudent.

And we are.
Anyone who says that they are called to preach or be ordained has that call thoroughly tested by the church.
In the UK Methodist church you cannot even start the process for ordination unless you first become a Local (lay) Preacher (which could take up to 5 years.) Then there is further testing/training which, if successful results in a person going to college. for 2 years. After college, the probation Minister has charge of a church for 2 years and then, if everything goes well, they are ordained.
The process is different in every denomination, but no one ever stands up in church and says "I am called to be a Minister, I am taking over this service". If anything, I would say we are over cautious in our selection process.

As explained above, God has the authority to override everything.

But he will not override, or contradict, his word.
So as he is calling women today to be ordained, it cannot be the case that he has forbidden this in Scripture. Otherwise he would be contradicting himself, and we wouldn't have a faithful God whom we could trust - if he contradicted himself once, he could do so again.

 

[Peacemaker1]

Deborah and Esther have nothing to do with this. You are assuming Paul had them in mind when writing down this verse. You cannot usurp authority if you do not "have" desire to do so in the first place.

Please note that women's preaching has nothing to do with usurping authority. It's when women take on roles in church that belong to men, like being a pastor/teacher. Paul is not forbidding them from teaching in other appropriate conditions or circumstances

Yes when God calls, it overrides everything else, but that's only when He calls. We cannot use the examples of a few isolated cases of women called by God in the OT and apply it to every woman.



Exactly, so we have to be very prudent.


As explained above, God has the authority to override everything.

you have things a little out of perspective.


faith begins with Jesus Christ, not with Mary, not with Esther, Devorah, or any man either.


when Mary said that Jesus is alive to the apostles, we could have seen her continue to do as Jesus did, laying His life down for HIs friends, enduring hardship, all this we are called to do, to be a good soldier of God.

Ester was not that soldier, nor was Deborah, but Jesus Christ is our Captain, now make your minds up guys if you want to be seen spe3aking for the faith, or against it here on these cheating (usurping) forums.



2 Timothy 2:3
Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.


Hebrews 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.



now i have that cleared up, i can say why the man is the head of the woman, just as the head of man is Christ, because the men follow their captain, do you see otherwise in this world ?

but the woman is with the man in the Lord, his helper, not his commander.

 

[lanceleo]

So as he is calling women today to be ordained

No scriptural evidence for that.

 

[Strong in Him]

No scriptural evidence for that.

There can't be evidence in the Bible, which was compiled hundreds of years ago, of what God is doing today.
But there is plenty of evidence that God called women to serve him - even in positions of authority - and as prophetesses, a judge, a queen. Evidence too that women followed Jesus; sitting at his feet as his disciple (which women never did), supporting him financially, being the first witness to the resurrection (women were not asked to be witnesses; too unreliable.) Evidence that they were co-workers with the Apostles in the early church, hosted meetings, prophesied and did not pose a problem, or a threat, to the early church.
Plenty of evidence that when society said "this is not your role", God said otherwise.

 

[Peacemaker1]

the same way a man can teach Christ, so a woman can teach a man. ( of God)


your discussion is senseless. ( we cant teach Christ.)



1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

 

[Peacemaker1]

ok, be seen then to carry on a vain argument...



1 Timothy 6:
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

 

[lanceleo]

But there is plenty of evidence that God called women to serve him - even in positions of authority - and as prophetesses, a judge, a queen.

The pastoral role is exclusively for men only as outlined in the bible.

 

[Strong in Him]

The pastoral role is exclusively for men only as outlined in the bible.

It isn't - and never was.
Women have always looked after the children, nursed them and sick relatives etc - and many more things besides. In the Bible, Rachel was a shepherdess, Genesis 29:9, Naaman had a slave girl, who advised how her master could be cured of leprosy, the woman in Proverbs 21 worked hard, cared for her family and the poor, Martha offered hospitality and Dorcas sewed clothes, did good and helped the poor.
It was a woman who started the nursing profession, while another woman was instrumental in prison reform. The nursing profession was, for years, dominated by women - it took a while for men to enter it and be accepted.
Many women have been sent onto the mission field.

We are all called to care for one another, visit the sick, help the poor and stand up for the weak and downtrodden - just as God does.