The Pastor King. an examination of the modern pastor role as opposed to the scripture order of God

[Bobber]

No, I said that ultimately it is Christ who works in them for their salvation. Yes Christ works in all the body, and not just in pastors. Though he does work in pastors who are given the gift for the perfecting of the saints. But you go off into an extreme error when you say that the reason they are in heaven is because of the pastors.

Yes if can be said they are there because of their pastors. But such a statement doesn't have to be taken in a absolute exclusive sense. And some pastors may work with one a great deal. When they all get to heaven the one might say if it wasn't for the Lord and the Lord working through you I wouldn't be here. They may not be able to say that about any other person. They might be able to but they might not.

To do this you miss the entire body of Christ. What about the loving grandmother some had who prayed for them daily and always directed them to believe in jesus, or the street preacher,

Of course.. I agree. Always have on this.

You seemed to miss all those by putting the extreme emphasis on the one pastor gift.

As you can see from my last statements....just not the case.

I eagerly wait for any true biblical scriptural correction from you.

Why should you see that much when I"ve told you I agree with the main body of things you have to say. My concern is the way manner and style in how you present your case. And it DOES matter how one does this. 2 Tim 2:25

So far...nothing. Just personal attacks as I have had often from people over the years. I find when some are troubled by the message they attack the messenger.

Are you being attacked? Or rather being challenged. If you'd give people the benefit of the doubt you would see many times a person giving rebuttals isn't full of anger (as what the word attacked gives the feel of) but they just don't necessarily agree with you.

 

[Bobber]

you say i handle it wrongly. Well, when the Lord sent me to many assemblies, I have seen some assemblies take out the pulpit, take off their microphone, change all the seats to a three row arc, and all wait on the Lord for ministry, and this went on for months at one place.

Well that sounds like a good result I agree. But what do you mean for months. So they went back to the regular way?

Others have opened up their evening gatherings to allow all to share etc.

Very good. Which goes along the line if anyone has a psalm a hymn a revelation, meaning something the Lord has shown you this week. I do remember Pentecostal churches I went to in the 70s which did this. It was just a given though that you don't go on for too long each one so other can share.

Many leaders are almost terrified to do that now. They're always thinking what if some nut stands up and rolls out a lot of strange things. I would agree they'd just need to have a protocol of dealing with such.

I have also seen many home meetings built up and encouraged others. It was handled rightly.

If they were I'm glad to hear it.

 

[Bobber]

. i can imaging how you would have responded when John told those who came to be baptized by him who were Pharisees and “Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?”.. That might have seemed extreme to you, or when the prophets did some "what some might call "extreme " things in the OT.

So the question was asked once how could John or Jesus say in Matt 23 calling some these things be men of LOVE. The answer came back well that's what it took to get that snakes attention. So it is LOVE in action for LOVE will make it clear where you're truly positioned in the realm of the Spirit. It made clear in no uncertain terms where one is located.....

Here's something you should perhaps consider though LOTruth....your dear precious brethren in the Lord ARE NOT snakes, vipers and Christ rejecting, LIFE rejecting people. This is NOT they type of reprove you give the saints. That's where we'd fall into the place of not knowing of what Spirit we're of.

 

[Always in His Presence]

“Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.”(Isaiah 55:1)

Not addressing Pastors

"...freely ye have received, freely give.”"(Matthew 10:8)

Not addressing pastors

“And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.”(2 Peter 2"3)

Not addressing pastors

"Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles." (3 John 7)

Not addressing pastors

Your off topic verses prove only that they are off topic and not addressing pastors.

Proper exegesis is a first year Bible school course. Perhaps it would be money well spent, it prevents obvious errors

 

[Always in His Presence]

Are you being attacked? Or rather being challenged. If you'd give people the benefit of the doubt you would see many times a person giving rebuttals isn't full of anger (as what the word attacked gives the feel of) but they just don't necessarily agree with you.

QFT Well said!

 

[Bobber]

No i do not consider myself like you wrongly portrait me. I simply speak what i have seen and heard and what God sends me for.

So are you saying you're prefect in all this? Are you saying you've never had occasion where you were mistaken in that.

If the scriptures I share cause tension with some, then that may be simply God working in them to reprove, rebuke, exhort or correct.

Could be. Or could be too the tension is caused unnecessarily for perhaps what one says is not spoken in love and with no diplomacy shown at all.

I do not seek to please men, but God.

And that's good but God said we're to speak the truth to saints in love Eph 4:15 says we're to do this so that the hearers can truly grow up into Christ. Hard truths are difficult to accept when one's defenses are up. Reading Eph 4:16 we see,

Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will (now remember that's ONLY when truth is spoken in LOVE) we will in all things grow up into Christ Himself, who is the head. From Him the whole body, fitted and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love through the work of each individual part.

Consider Jesus words about the prophets that were all persecuted by Israel,

Christ rejecting, LIFE rejecting people are not dear beloved saints of God. Surely you know they don't need stern rebukes and reproofs the others did need? I'm not saying they don't ever need to be instructed. But the same manner?

“Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" (Galatians 4:16)

Paul however had a back ground and history with these people. He had established the churches in Galatia. You might find this interesting below,

Paul, Father of the Corinthians

Ligonier Ministries, founded by R.C. Sproul, exists to proclaim, teach, and defend the holiness of God in all its fullness to as many people as possible.

www.ligonier.org

Because Paul was an Apostle, the Corinthians were obligated to heed his words. However, they had in one sense an even greater obligation to Paul than to other teachers or Apostles, for it was through his work that many of them were converted and that the church at Corinth was planted (Acts 18:1–11). The Corinthians had many legitimate “guides” or teachers, including Peter (Cephas) and Apollos (1 Cor. 1:12), but they had only one father—Paul, through whose ministry the gospel took root in Corinth (4:15). As his children, they owed him their love and obedience. It would be a love and obedience well placed, for Paul had only the best interests of the Corinthians at heart, seeking to instruct them in the gospel and its ramifications.

It seems to me you walk into the work of other men and you want to be accepted as if you're their converts father...or they're to be subservient to your authority. . You haven't established any of those works.....can't you see what I'm saying? It would be like me walking into a Baptist church, standing up asking what's going on here. Interrupting the service or giving them reproofs or rebukes for not having the charismatic gifts functioning. I mean really. It just doesn't work that way.

But the other reason some might fight the things of scripture in these areas is because they do not want to change anything.

Of course. It's a new wineskin way of doing things. Not that it's new but it's new to this generation.

Many simply love to have the present order no matter what is shown or exhorted.

Sure. It's like admitting that they've been doing things in a misapplied way and doing it for years. And then there's if whatever is all true our leaders would have known about it years ago.

Many other think they are rich and increased with good and have need of nothing, yet Christ may be outside knocking wanting to come into them and sup with them.

And you can have that with house churches too.

Jesus, Paul Peter, John, and others were often misunderstood in their ministry and sometimes by other believers.

No doubt. The question is are YOU being misunderstood by your readers. They'll have to ascertain that themselves through prayer and study of the word. If however after doing that and they don't agree....maybe they're not misunderstanding you at all.

I present the truth as clearly as i can with scripture. yes, I will be bold against the things I see as false.

And you want to keep perspective about what you get so bold about AND how you share your truth. We already talked about the 2 Tim 2 :24 verse,

I have resolved to continue in this burning zeal and to despise the judgment of men, after the example of Christ, who in His zeal called His adversaries a generation of vipers, blind, hypocrites, children of the devil (Matt. 23:13; 17:33; John 8:44).

So you're quoting Martin Luther. To who was he referring to? Do you think he was referring to ANYONE who didn't agree with him on everything? That he'd call them hypocrites, vipers and children of the devil? If someone had a different view than you on the rapture.....are they the above? Or any number of other bible teachings?

And Paul calls the sorcerer a child of the devil full of all subtlety and all mischief (Acts 13:10); and some false apostles he calls dogs, deceivers, and adulterers of the Word (Phil. 3:2; 2 Cor. 11:13).

Sure. The man needed to know he was in league with the devil in an absolute sense. And false Apostles can mean those who are not even saved. One however that doesn't understand everything absolutely right or are confused about A, B or C you wouldn't call them dogs. Jm 3:1 says not all are to desire to be teachers knowing they'll receive greater scrutiny at the judgement. Not a heaven and hell judgement but rather even Christians teachers will have to give account to the Lord for what they taught. And i'll add HOW THEY TAUGHT IT. The proof of this is in 2 Tim 2:26

But nowadays, of course, our ears are made so sensitive by the mad multitude of flatterers that as soon as we find that we are not praised in all things, we cry out that people are vicious; and when we cannot ward off the truth under any other guise, we escape from it under the pretext of the snappishness, impatience, and immoderateness of its defenders.

Sure. Happens with many all the time. As for me I don't mind others telling me I'm way, way off. Doesn't upset me one bit. But I say OK well bring out on the table what you've got to say and I'll do my best to sincerely assess it.

What good does salt do if it does not bite?

Remember though. Another has the right to try to figure out what you're bringing is genuine salt too. You have to agree there can be many who would say what you just did but they're just genuinely obnoxious and out of line in what they're saying. Their "biting" is because they're of a wrong spirit.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Not addressing Pastors

Not addressing pastors

Not addressing pastors

Not addressing pastors

Your off topic verses prove only that they are off topic and not addressing pastors.

Proper exegesis is a first year Bible school course. Perhaps it would be money well spent, it prevents obvious errors

I was refering to paid miniters and charging sone for teaching the word.

Get the facts right before you build a straw man against me here.

No errors here. Every verse is directly connected to what I was responding to .

 

[PloverWing]

Thanks for posting "House to house 1.pdf", @LoveofTruth . The grey box on the first page with a list of 6 points is the beginning of an answer to my question. I see that you want to meet in homes instead of larger buildings. You want to include a meal as part of your gathering. The house congregation is either governed by a group of elders (#3) or by consensus (#4); that part isn't clear to me.

Point #6 in your list is what's most interesting to me: "Waiting on God in gatherings for ministry, prayer, and gifts". Can you tell me more about how this works? Do you sit quietly waiting for God to speak in the moment and move you to give a particular message to the gathering? Do you plan something in advance? Do you just talk informally when you meet, and see what emerges from the conversation? What do you typically do when you meet?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes if can be said they are there because of their pastors. But such a statement doesn't have to be taken in a absolute exclusive sense.

Well, the reason I make an issue about your words, is because you only mentioned the pastors as why they are in heaven. And yes, there are men who have pastor gifts who have won people to Christ and ministered good things to many. ( as I did mentioned in my first original post here) But taking your "extreme" sense of it is what most of the world does they even say things like this about the one man pastor ministry (which under the ministry section of some man made By-Laws has only the pastor, which is false). Here are some of the "extremes that are even written down,

"The Pastor shall be the spiritual overseer of the assembly and of all it's activities"(ArticleIV section 1, A)

"He shall provide for all the services of the assembly, no person shall be invited to speak or preach in the assembly without his approval" (II, section 1)

"The Roman Pontif...as pastor of the entire church has full, supreme, and universal power over the entire church" ( #882 in the Constetution of the Catholic Church). He is also said to be "the head"(#883)

Now these few quotes ( I could find many more) are an "extreme" error.

And some pastors may work with one a great deal. When they all get to heaven the one might say if it wasn't for the Lord and the Lord working through you I wouldn't be here. They may not be able to say that about any other person. They might be able to but they might not.

This was never my point , I am not pushing the true biblical role of pastor aside or attacking any one personally. I speak of the role affecting and hindering the body ministry and Christ work in the church and every believer. I speak of the body being quenched and lorded over and we are warned by Jesus and Paul and Peter and John and others about this on scripture.

My concern is the way manner and style in how you present your case.

I am not sure exactly what you are saying negatively about my manner. I am only sharing scriptures and teaching from the word here and about the body ministry and the error of having a man control all over all as a Lord or like a king. You say my manner is wrong and yet everything I have done is biblical. You don't know me in person or see me and yet act as if you can see my heart. Only God knoweth the hearts of all men. You act like any rebuke or warning or correction that might upset some is somehow not loving. That is 100 percent wrong. We see Jesus Paul, Peter John and many others and prophets speaking and acting tis way in their "Manner:
".
So I am not sure what you mean. by my "manner" or "style". i don't have a style". I speak the truth in love. Yes, love rebukes at times. Jesus said whom he loved he rebukes and chastens and Laodicea didn't seem to understand this kind of love so he told them. Many today don't understand this love either, They say when being warned or corrected or rebuked etc that the person doing so in his manner and style is not loving. This is false according to scripture. They cannot see his heart on God can. And I do examine my heart all the time and even when I have shared with assemblies and the one man Lord has attacked me physically in front of all and come in a fleshly rage. I go home and pray and seek the Lord if I did anything wrong. I wait for the Lord to show me if i did. And if i did i would repent and seek to fix it with the assembly. But of ten I hear confirmation and many verses to justify my words and actions. So i don't think you judge me rightly.

I am fully aware of what I say and how shaking it is to the entire order of man made religion today. I know that if any gathering was to follow God's commands and order as i have shown in scripture all things would change a total reform would take place . It would mean the pastor has to step down from his exalted high place and be one of the brothers , perhaps an elder with others. It would mean they would all begin to listen for the Spirit to lead and minister to each other using whatever gifts God gives. They would begin to gather in homes perhaps 10 or more in large gatherings all over. They would either sell the building or use it for evangelism and helping the poor as a place of assistance etc etc. Total change. And many love to have it the way they have ben going for years so immediately they try to defend the religious form they have. And attack the messenger.

I don't go into a gathering and stand up on the chairs for the most part and cry out. I have done this a few times as God led me. But generally I go in in peace and share with others as God opens doors. But the one person that seeks to stop me from what I share from solid scriptures is the so called "pastor". I do say "so called" because the way some of them act i cannot even say they they fulfill this role. Some I can say they are gifted, but not all are pastor gifts. But still even the most humble man when challenged with the truth of God's order and commands for the church can be tempted with pride and have the wrong "manner" and actions towards me and find himself in trouble with God for attacking one of Gods sent one to the assembly they are in.

“For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;”(Romans 12:3-6).

"And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. 7For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? 8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you. 9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised."*1 Cor 4:6-10).

"5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant." (Matthew 23:5-10).

Yes, I see some like the pharisees today, many in fact even though they may call themselves ministers of God etc

Are you being attacked? Or rather being challenged.

I do not fear either. But I see it as an attack on my ministry and the things of God i share when you seek to say what I share ifs false or the "manner" I have shared is false. I disagree with both. To attack something is to try and bring it down and to overcome it and destroy it or its influence. I know that what I say is part of a larger spiritual war that has been going on for a long time. I see the Devil involved in hindering Christ in the body and binding men under one man. If the devil can get into a one man over an assembly he can more easily bind up that church than trying to influence a multitude of believers . This is a great danger and we have seen the "extreme" of a one man Lord over the flock in history. I think of men like Jim Jones, who started out as a pastor and even won many in his area to Christ ( or so it is said) , then he became proud and as a Lord over all and abused the entire place unto disaster. That is the extreme, but one safeguard is a multitude of people who can all edify and have input.

To "challenge" what I say or my "manner" and so called "style", I do not fear these things. To do so, I look for sound scriptural reasoning and a witness in my spirit. I try to examine all things said to me.

If you'd give people the benefit of the doubt you would see many times a person giving rebuttals isn't full of anger (as what the word attacked gives the feel of) but they just don't necessarily agree with you.

I don't say those who disagree with me are always full of anger. But some have surely been like this as they attacked me raging with violence. But the attacks are upon God ultimately for I simple speak His truth and commands and men have all sorts of reasons and excuses and criticisms for not wanting to do God's will. I marvel at how some try to fight against Gods truth in these areas and so passionately defend the traditions and order of man that they have been bound up in for so long.

Why do you think Jesus said this to a church?

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."*Revelation 3:14-20)

 

[LoveofTruth]

Thanks for posting "House to house 1.pdf",

Hello and God bless. Im glad you took time to consider these things.

The house congregation is either governed by a group of elders (#3) or by consensus (#4); that part isn't clear to me.

We are all ruled by God as he rules in our hearts,

“And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.””*(Colossians 3:15)

When the peace of God rules in our hearts praise and thankfulness flow out, and then we let the Word of Christ dwell in us richly in all wisdom in teaching and admonishing one another. If we are not in the peace of God and have God ruling ( governing) then the word is hindered from having effectual working in that person.

The whole body comes to "consensus " in matters of disagreement and tension as we see the church did in Acts 15 when there was serious doctrinal issues and the matter of the Gentiles coming into the gatherings. The whole body seeks to speak the same things and have the same mind and judgement as we are commanded to do in scripture. But if something is said by any and others disagree we seek to come to peace and unity in this. If it is a hard issue we may make a time to examine this more fully with all the body.

“Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.”" (1 Corinthians 1:10)

The elders are more mature brothers who will often feed and oversee and exhort the gainsayers with sound doctrine. Generally they have already been proven in the assembly and to be loving sound men in the faith and even though the elders will feed often and help others all can share and use their gifts. Some might have a testimony as they wait on the Lord others a exhortation or teaching among the body. Elders do not always have to speak and be the main edifying influence. But they are more able than a novice to rightly divide the word Novices are not as skillful in the word of righteousness. But I have heard even baby christians have wonderful revelations from God.

We also have had other believers who visit from time to time and we hear their testimony and what od has done.

So the elders are governed by God in them working and so are all the believers in the body. Truly it is God who works in all to will and to do and to make us perfect unto every good work. This happens as we let the peace of God rule in our hearts. If any come to the gatherings in sin or with no peace to God this can affect the entire body. First is self examining. This should be done all through the week and especially when we come together and have the supper as well. Examine ourselves if we are in the peace of God. Tis peace came through Jesus Christ and His work and having Jesus Christ in us, as God works in us through Jesus Christ.

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Am" *Hebrews 13:20,21)

Here we see the "God of peace" mentioned again. This is the beginning. Without this peace with God and made through faith in the blood of the cross and having Christ dwell in our hearts by faith, the entire gathering can be hindered. Now some may not have peace and others may, and the edifying can still happen among us. But there is not the same ministry and work in the body for those who have no peace with God. They wont be able to enter into the fellowship of the mystery of Christ.

Point #6 in your list is what's most interesting to me: "Waiting on God in gatherings for ministry, prayer, and gifts". Can you tell me more about how this works? Do you sit quietly waiting for God to speak in the moment and move you to give a particular message to the gathering? Do you plan something in advance? Do you just talk informally when you meet, and see what emerges from the conversation? What do you typically do when you meet?

This is the most wonderful question you asked and the wonder of the church. As I already showed in the two verses i shared about the peace of God ruling (governing) and the God of peace working in every part of the body in that peace to make us perfect unto every good work. This is the part where we must not rush into God's presence or be hasty to utter anything before God.

When believers have come together in homes they will come into the home and greet one another, often like a family would with hugs and kindness and joy. Then some will go in and sit down and some fellowship begins as others put the food on the table. Many bring some kind of food for all there and together we have a feast. if any are poor we share all with them. We would have a saying among us that none here will every go hungry as long as God provides for us all.
Then as we begin to gather around in the living room, and the body begins to settle a peace comes upon us and a sober sense that we are in God's presence. Often we will wait in silence and some may begin to pray or have a spiritual song. Another may speak forth a wonderful testimony and bless all. A sense of waiting on the Lord is always there. This is the difficult part i find for all believers to cease from their own works and the flesh and to walk in the spirit. This being led by the spirit in all is the most wonderful part where all the gifts can come forth and ministry. But this wonder does not always happen. if all believers are in the faith we know that Christ is working in us and I have seen even in what may appear to be many different voices sharing (some more spiritual than others), the ministry of Christ working in all to edify the body. Even in disagreements I have seen the Lords truth rise up in others and a peace and assurance comes. We see an example of this in Acts 20 and 1 Cor 14 etc.

We see to have Christ build His church from within.

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."(Ephesians 4:15,16)

"1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil. 2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.:" ( Ecclesiastes 5:1,2)

"4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness. 9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good. 10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;" ( Romans 12:4-9)

10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen" ( 1 Peter 4:10,11)

We wait on ministry, teaching exhortation, all edifying in Christ. and watch unto prayer. This is at the best of meetings. Not all meetings are the same. These things I speak of are all over the New testament. When I saw these things by the Spirit of God showing me I marvelled that so many have not seen them, even though the apostles and Jesus speak of them all over. To not minister the gift from God does not make us "good stewards of the manifold grace of God".

We don't plan a pre written sermon or message. Sometimes a brother might have some scriptures to share and have some note of them. But generally we wait on the Lord and every meeting is different. Sometimes a great deal of teaching other times praise and tears and prayer, other times a new believer is among us and we encourage and hear testimony and some teaching. Other times we are struggling through a doctrinal issue or some other stressful situation a brother or sister is in. We always have a meal together and during the meal we all take a part of the unleavened bread in the centre of the meal and a cup of grape juice and we remember the Lord and his blood shed and look forward to the future meeting.

A brief story might edify here. While we were in a meeting once we were led to all pray, We didn't usually hold hands when we prayed but this time we did. As I was closing my eyes (I don't we don;t always have to close my eyes but I do sometimes) I had a vision, I saw the meeting in the room as if my eyes were opened and I saw Jesus standing in the midst of us, His hand was over me and my brother Tim across the room and he was then looking back to my right with a frown on his face. I then opened my eyes and told the body what I had seen. I then told them that he looked to my right and as I looked over the two brothers weren't holding hands. We found out that they had hatred to each other and their anger was hindering them and us from unity. Jesus was concerned about this and pointed it out. This was a wonderful revelation and the Lord was in the midst. A sense of awe and sober wonder and joy came upon us.

Were two or more are gathered in His name there he is in the midst.

 

[LoveofTruth]

So are you saying you're prefect in all this? Are you saying you've never had occasion where you were mistaken in that.

I examine myself and what I say often. The Lord corrects me if i am in error as I seek to have a clean conscience with God. If I am in ignorance of anything I pray the Lord would show me. I am only perfect if God works in me to make me perfect unto every good work working in me that which is well pleasing through Jesus Christ. I am weak and in myself know nothing. But i am strong in the Lord as he moves me. To be made perfect is by the Lord God directly working in us (Hebrews 13:20,21) by the body of Christ and God working through Jesus in all ( Ephesians 4:10-16) and by the holy scriptures which are able ( through Gods working in us and His revelation) to make us perfect unto every god work. ( 2 Timothy 3:16)

Could be. Or could be too the tension is caused unnecessarily for perhaps what one says is not spoken in love and with no diplomacy shown at all.

No, I don't believe so in this case. I believe many are bound up under the religious form and pastor they are under that when they are troubled by the scriptures that causes tension. I have seen it many times. They will then try to attack and disregard the messenger. if they can make the messenger the object of controversy by attributing to him a lack of love or too serious a face or “who does he think he is coming in here and telling us anything we do is not according to scripture", then they will disregard the message as well, to their spiritual danger. Paul said beware of such things and all should take this seriously ( Colossians 2:8)

And that's good but God said we're to speak the truth to saints in love Eph 4:15

You are wrongly assuming I don't. You may need to see how love speaks and acts more. Examine how love works in Jesus and Paul and others when they reprove and rebuke and warn as well as show mercy and long suffering. You seek to judge my motives of my heart that is not right. Show me what lack of love I have shown here by the way I have written or what I have written about. I eagerly wait for this.
If by speaking in love, you are even implying for a second that the words of God's commands for churches should not be spoken, or that no minister should sharply rebuke others for holding to the traditions and commandments of men that turn from the truth I must disagree with you according to scripture. If by showing love you mean i should not expose false ministers or the role that hinders the body and quenches the spirit I again must disagree with you. if by exhorting me to do all in love you mean that love never does what I do or writes what i write, then I als must strongly disagree with you according to scripture.

Christ rejecting, LIFE rejecting people are not dear beloved saints of God. Surely you know they don't need stern rebukes and reproofs the others did need? I'm not saying they don't ever need to be instructed. But the same manner?

I never said I was rebuking the world or the lost in this message to the church. and I disagree with you here according to scripture, we read of Christian s at times needing rebuke and warning and reproof. Read closely the scripture and you will see this often being spoken to professing believers. Also, in many gatherings there may also be those who profess Christ but are not in the faith Paul addressed this in Corinth that some had not the knowledge of God.

But consider,

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. " (Revelation 3:16-19)

Spoken to the church.

“My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons....Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.”(Hebrews 12:5-8,22)

Spoken to the church

"15 And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. 16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.") 2 Corinthians 12:15,16)

spoken to believers.

there are many examples of rebuke and reproof to the church. Too many to mention here

No doubt. The question is are YOU being misunderstood by your readers. They'll have to ascertain that themselves through prayer and study of the word. If however after doing that and they don't agree....maybe they're not misunderstanding you at all.

Definitely, as Paul was misunderstood by other believers at times and wrongly judged his motives and thought he didn't love them when he withstood their leaders and errors and they even thought he walked according to the flesh. I also have had similar to this

But sometimes men just don;t want to change and loose their 100 thousand dollar a year or more big fat paycheques. They also may love to be the main man the superstar over others sadly. Not all are like this but some are

...continued

 

[Bobber]

You are wrongly assuming I don't. You may need to see how love speaks and acts more. Examine how love works in Jesus and Paul and others when they reprove and rebuke and warn as well as show mercy and long suffering.

I believe I have and pointed out to you that Jesus nor Paul talked about believers as snakes and vipers. I'm not saying they didn't bring correct but the way and manner in which they did is what we're talking about here.

You seek to judge my motives of my heart that is not right.

Everyone must at least seek to discern where you're coming from. Let's be honest here you must probably seek to do so when a person comes to your fellowship and engages in what you'd consider troublesome action. You don't ask and suspect what's motivating them to be a certain way? I'm confident you must.

Show me what lack of love I have shown here by the way I have written or what I have written about. I eagerly wait for this.

I think I've spoken enough about where I have reservations about some of your approach No need to bring it up again And I actually do believe much of what you say has good substance to it. We could perhaps agree that we don't see eye to eye on everything and perhaps that one or both of us will progress in how the Lord would have us think. .

 

[Bobber]

“Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.”" (1 Corinthians 1:10)

So I'd like now to get on the positive side with you and discuss things I believe you could help me understand. So in your fellowship.....and I read the above verse.....to what point do you take it where it's said you have no divisions among you. There are many Bible subjects. If some in your group had different opinions about the rapture, exactly when it occurs.....do you feel that's something you've really got to work out? Has somebody caused division for having a different view then the rest on a subject like that?

Elders do not always have to speak and be the main edifying influence. But they are more able than a novice to rightly divide the word Novices are not as skillful in the word of righteousness. But I have heard even baby christians have wonderful revelations from God.

Sound good.

Often we will wait in silence and some may begin to pray or have a spiritual song.

I do like it. You're waiting allowing the Spirit to brings things forth. Quakers were known to do this. They'd wait until they felt a spiritual unction.

Other times we are struggling through a doctrinal issue

So give us an example of some doctrinal issue your group has struggled with and what did you conclude about it. Do you ever take a position let everyone be convinced in his own mind that is showing flexibility with each other that you don't have to exactly believe everything alike? And I"m not talking about foundational issues.

 

[Always in His Presence]

I was refering to paid miniters and charging sone for teaching the word.

Get the facts right before you build a straw man against me here.

No errors here. Every verse is directly connected to what I was responding to .

Yes - YOU were addressing to paid ministers - it's the scripture verses you posted that were NOT addressing paid ministers - not even close if you would read them in context.

 

[LoveofTruth]

So give us an example of some doctrinal issue your group has struggled with and what did you conclude about it. Do you ever take a position let everyone be convinced in his own mind that is showing flexibility with each other that you don't have to exactly believe everything alike? And I"m not talking about foundational issues.

Hello again,

Ill give "you" and example, the "us" part has not been asked by all. But this is for all here as well. I have no issue really with saying "give "us" and example, except sometimes it can look like I am on trial in the entire group here and a type of unity is asking me something. Anyway...

We had an issue once when a person who recently gathered with us, who had given testimony about his faith had revealed to all that he didn't believe that Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh. He had some heretical view of the doctrine of Christ and His nature. We listened to his words then others and myself began to show him many scriptures to confirm the deity of Christ. As he was talking another person who had been among us for a while said he didn't believe in the deity of Christ also, this was very troubling because he had given the impression he did. But as many shared scripture and the weight of scripture was sound and clear eventually he left and the other person. They were unable to resist the truth of scripture and sadly, rather than have their view changed they left the meeting.

The thing about this kind of close gathering is that eventually many things will come forth. But in large gatherings as we see today where there is no body ministry, such people can sit there and no one knows their views and they may begin to share them with others and lead them away without it being addressed.

We also had a couple who visited us once for a few meetings, but they had their own view of how to have the supper with the bread and cup. They were not going to stay among us if we did things the way we did. But we simply followed the way Christ and the apostles did and we all came together to discuss this mater, and continued to follow the way we had according to scripture it was a simple thing but to them they were in a unusual doctrine that was not in the biblical way as we all saw. So we all came to a consensus in this.

There are other doctrines that came up at times that we would not separate about but that we were working through.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes - YOU were addressing to paid ministers - it's the scripture verses you posted that were NOT addressing paid ministers - not even close if you would read them in context.

Jesus sent them out to give freely not get paid to do it. Freely give, seems clear.

and “And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.”(2 Peter 2"3)" also seems clear to, covetousness is connected to those who seek money in this case also. Now i am not saying all are in such a way as they get paid to share the gospel and the truth of God but it is a warning.

Paul also used the word “coveting” to describe how he did not covet any man’s gold or silver when ministering but worked with his own hands. He said this the the Ephesians elders and gave them that as an example for them.

Acts 20: 33. I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. 34. Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. 35. I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.”

And buying without money also shows that the salvation preachers do not charge money for sone poor or rich to come to salvation. Paul said he did not make the gospel of Christ chargeable.

So, if a man is over all in an assembly and others come into the gathering and he shares the gospel to them then they (even if they are still unsaved or saved) ask for money from all, this gives the impression that the gospel is chargeable. And to buy without money to those who thirst would mean you can drink if you eventually pay me money for preaching.

It seems connected to what I am saying.

Also the verse about taking nothing of the Gentiles. This seems to be also connected to them not taking money for sharing the gospel or things if God. Many commentators also see this .

So, I’m not sure what you mean in your comments.

It is true however that Paul doesn’t speak directly to a man over all the assembly called “the pastor”. Because such a man did not exist over all (even though there were pastor gifts). He often speaks to the whole church and elders.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I do like it. You're waiting allowing the Spirit to brings things forth. Quakers were known to do this. They'd wait until they felt a spiritual unction.

The believers in every church did this also as I understand from scripture. (1 Corinthians 24:26-33, Colossians 3:15,16, 1 Peter 4:10,12).

To be led of the Spirit in Christ is God’s order and governing of the body. He effectually works in every part.

But this is the most difficult aspect of the church gathering, along with sin in the camp and false doctrine.

Learning to listen to God and be led of the spirit, to walk in the spirit, to minister in the spirit, to pray in the spirit, to sing in the spirit, ti live in the spirit, is at tension with the flesh that wants us to yield to it rather than the Spirit.

Romans 8: 13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”

 

[LoveofTruth]

So I'd like now to get on the positive side with you

This is good. And let’s both seek to be on the Lords side.

 

[Always in His Presence]

It is true however that Paul doesn’t speak directly to a man over all the assembly called “the pastor”. Because such a man did not exist over all (even though there were pastor gifts).

You believe God gave the gift, and it existed, but the man the gift was given to did not exist? How does that make any sense at all.

If it was so with the pastor, then it has to be so with all the gifts. That it the flaw in your thinking.

He often speaks to the whole church and elders.

That is historically and scripturally inaccurate as I have shown.

Have you never read 1 Cor 9:3. My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? 6 Or is itonly Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working? 7 Who ever goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its fruit? Or who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk of the flock?

Did you catch that? Who tends a flock. That would be a shepherd (pastor).

 

[Always in His Presence]

Jesus sent them out to give freely not get paid to do it. Freely give, seems clear.

Here is where context is helpful -

Matt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.

Let's go to first year Bible School - Exegesis 100

VS 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.​

Let's look at the sentence, what is Jesus telling them to freely give?

1. heal the sick​
2. cleanse the lepers​
3. raise the dead​
4. cast out demons.​

That is the subject of Jesus' instructions.

Then He mentions money in vs 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.

Jesus is telling them not to take anything with them - no money, no gold, no silver, not even a change of clothes or a staff. If you have no money to the point of not even a change of clothes - how can you freely give money? answer: you can't. Also look at the very last words He said "a worker is worthy of his food".

Does the larger font help?

You post scriptures', but very very few of them support your position when read in context.