Israel-Hamas Thread II

[wing2000]

Yup. Why are putting out Hamas propaganda without confirming it. You are listening to a terrorist organization. It ought to automatically be disbelieved until confirmed. Tossing in the words "the information could not be independently confirmed" is a cop out. They write an entire article about things and then toss in a caveat line that? Eight words?

It's not a "cop out". It's simply stating a fact...in a war zone. It's up to you, the reader, to determine what to do with the information.

 

[Vanellus]

"Controlled by Hamas" is lazy shorthand that suits the political agenda of some posters here. But we know more than this lazy shorthand about how these figures are produced.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...g6DbxVI8iRUnufTovs5A7jWXMAXROVNPStFy7CPpNPFQs

In the first six weeks of the war, hospital morgues across Gaza sent figures to the health ministry's main collection centre at Al Shifa Hospital. Officials used Excel sheets to keep track of names, ages and ID card numbers of the dead and transmitted these to the Palestinian Health Ministry in Ramallah, part of the Palestinian Authority (PA) that exercises limited self-rule in the Israeli-occupied West Bank.

But Omar Hussein Ali, director of the Ramallah ministry's emergency operations centre, said that of the four officials who ran the Shifa data centre, one died in an air strike that hit the hospital while the other three went missing when Israeli forces seized the premises as an alleged Hamas hideout.


"The kind of casualty recording required to understand what's going on is getting harder. Information infrastructure, the health systems that existed, are being systematically destroyed," said Hamit Dardagan of Iraq Body Count, set up during the U.S.-led invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Hmm I thought we were told by the IDF that they don't target hospitals. Maybe Reuters is controlled by Hamas!
Note that only bodies that arrive at hospital morgues were being counted not the bodies that are still under the rubble: there's a lot of rubble in Gaza not all of which is due to alleged misfiring Hamas rockets. And "controlled by Hamas" was 4 people using Excel at al Shifa who reported their figures to the Palestinian Authority (not Hamas) in Ramallah.

ARE THE PUBLISHED CASUALTY NUMBERS COMPREHENSIVE?​

No, experts told Reuters.

"Our monitoring suggests that the numbers provided by the Ministry of Health may be under-reporting as they do not include fatalities who did not reach hospitals or may be lost under the rubble," the U.N. human rights office spokesperson said.

"It is a logical assumption that the numbers being reported are underestimated, are low," said Nathaniel Raymond, Executive Director of the Humanitarian Research Lab at the Yale School of Public Health, who has worked on death counts in armed conflict and natural disasters for more than 20 years.

The PA's Oct. 26 report said at least 1,000 bodies could not be recovered or brought to morgues, citing families interviewed by its Gaza staff - a clear and plausible example of the impact of war "on data capture and reporting", the Lancet article read.

The number of bodies feared buried under the rubble now reaches into the thousands and much of the Gaza civil defence force's digging equipment has been destroyed in air strikes, the PA's health minister al-Kaila said on Tuesday.

That must be the Hamas controlled Yale School of Public Health of course!

Oona Campbell, professor at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, said Palestinian health authorities have longstanding credibility with their methods of maintaining baseline statistics and tracking deaths in general, not just during times of war. U.N. agencies rely on them.

"Palestinian data collection capabilities are professional and many ministry staff have been trained in the United States. They work hard to ensure statistical fidelity," said Yale University's Raymond.

That must be the Hamas controlled London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine of course.

On Oct. 26 the PA Health Ministry published a 212-page report with the names, ages and ID numbers of 7,028 Palestinians it recorded as dead from air strikes - after U.S. President Joe Biden cast doubt on the casualty figures.

Campbell and two other academics analysed the data for a Lancet medical journal report on Nov. 26 and concluded there was no obvious reason to doubt their validity. "We consider it implausible that these patterns (of mortality rates) would arise from data fabrication," the researchers wrote.

That must be the Hamas controlled Lancet of course.

Another example of lazy thinking in this thread is that criticism of the Israeli government, the IDF or even suggesting that well over 20,000 deaths in Gaza is a tad OTT, is support for Hamas. This comes from the entirely mistaken white hat vs black hat classic western model of thinking which, though denied, is clearly pervasive in this thread. Criticism of the IDF does not mean support for Hamas. In this sinful world there is no shortage of black hats for both Hamas and the IDF.

Post 2298 by civilwarbuff is a classic example of this wrong and lazy thinking. I have not seen any one explicitly supporting Hamas in this thread. The accusation in post 2298 did not name anyone. Maybe it was a false accusation.

 

[rjs330]

As everyone knows, Hamas seized control of Gaza. They are the authorities. We may not entirely trust their figures, but there are no other authorities to appeal to.

Then don't. Don't write entire articles based upon something a terrorist organization says.

People act as if these numbers were real. The journalists hardly say a thing about their veracity or who the numbers are coming from. Hamas have been proven liars and everything they say should be taken and presented with great scepticism.

 

[rjs330]

That must be the Hamas controlled Yale School of Public Health of course!

What this guy went over and counted the bodies himself? He has no idea how many were killed. He has no clue how many civilians vs Hamas or Hamas agents were killed.

Another example of lazy thinking in this thread is that criticism of the Israeli government, the IDF or even suggesting that well over 20,000 deaths in Gaza is a tad OTT, is support for Hamas. This comes from the entirely mistaken white hat vs black hat classic western model of thinking which, though denied, is clearly pervasive in this thread. Criticism of the IDF does not mean support for Hamas. In this sinful world there is no shortage of black hats for both Hamas and the IDF.

I think it's more black hat vs light gray hat. Hamas is pure evil and hatred. The IDF isn't perfect but they are a far cry from evil. Israel could have absolutely turned Gaza into glass. Every man woman and child. But they didn't. With their superiority they could have just bombed everything into oblivion. But they haven't.

They dropped about 29,000 bombs. If we accepted the numbers from the terrorists they killed 18000 people. That's less than 1 person per bomb. If Israel were really trying kill everyone they are doing a terrible job of it. Sure sounds like they were trying to not kill everyone.

 

[o_mlly]

Your idiotic suggestion is that I copied the quote and reworded it.

Nope. Another strawman. I made no such suggestion. As a fact, I showed that you posted the un-amended portion of the article.

Why did you do that? Now, the question: Because you thought it bolstered your emotional and irrational argument?

 

[o_mlly]

It's simply stating a fact..

Ahhh, there's the rub. Why does one elevate unverified, likely biased, accusations to be "facts"?

 

[o_mlly]

Hamas is noted for killing Gazans, whether they shoot them as they run away or surround themselves with civilians. Either way Hamas is responsible for murder, and we need an international tribunal as there was after World War II in order to put their leaders on trial. Name one country that you think has done a better job than Israel in avoiding civilian casualties under similar circumstances.

A difference between Hamas and the rest of the civilized world is Hamas uses and approves of evil means to achieve their end.

 

[wing2000]

Ahhh, there's the rub. Why does one elevate unverified, likely biased, accusations to be "facts"?

...I think you misunderstood my point.

In a war zone, it's exceedingly difficult to have a 3rd party verify a claim.

 

[essentialsaltes]

People act as if these numbers were real.

They seem to be broadly accurate. Vanellus has shown to what extent they can be assessed by independent researchers.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Israel reveals signs of Hamas activity at Shifa, but a promised command center remains elusive​

The case of al-Shifa: Investigating the assault on Gaza’s largest hospital​

The evidence presented by the Israeli government falls short of showing that Hamas had been using the hospital as a command and control center, a Post analysis shows.

The claims were remarkably specific — that five hospital buildings were directly involved in Hamas activities; that the buildings sat atop underground tunnels that were used by militants to direct rocket attacks and command fighters; and that the tunnels could be accessed from inside hospital wards. The assertions were backed by “concrete evidence,” Israel Defense Forces spokesman Daniel Hagari said as he laid out the case in an Oct. 27 briefing.

Hagari provided a clear picture of what he thought Israel forces would find, showing an animated video of what allegedly lay beneath the facility. In the film, masked militants patrolled on one level, which was connected to a warren of rooms further below ground with laptops and sleeping quarters.

But the evidence presented by the Israeli government falls short of showing that Hamas had been using the hospital as a command and control center, according to a Washington Post analysis of open-source visuals, satellite imagery and all of the publicly released IDF materials. That raises critical questions, legal and humanitarian experts say, about whether the civilian harm caused by Israel’s military operations against the hospital — encircling, besieging and ultimately raiding the facility and the tunnel beneath it — were proportionate to the assessed threat.
The Post’s analysis shows:

• The rooms connected to the tunnel network discovered by IDF troops showed no immediate evidence of military use by Hamas.
• None of the five hospital buildings identified by Hagari appeared to be connected to the tunnel network.
• There is no evidence that the tunnels could be accessed from inside hospital wards.

...

Several days later, when WHO medics arrived to evacuate those still inside, they said the place of healing had become a “death zone.” At least 40 patients — including four premature babies — died in the days leading up to the raid and its aftermath, the United Nations said.

...

The U.S. government has not made any of the declassified material public and the official would not share the intelligence this assessment [broadly agreeing with Israeli claims] was based on.

When asked if more evidence from al-Shifa would be forthcoming, the spokesperson said: “We cannot provide additional information.”

 

[civilwarbuff]

The only reason for this shameful insinuation that children can be valid targets is to avoid the fact that so many innocent people have been killed. You seem totally incapable of addressing that fact without doubling down on this abhorrent view. You have completely ignored any argument as to extent of the human suffering. So I'm going to completely ignore you.

I guess the posts really struck home. Now there is no denying what most here have said about 'palestinian' children being used by hamas in combat situations. Sorry to have burst your bubble and shot down your Unicorn.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Yup. Why are putting out Hamas propaganda without confirming it. You are listening to a terrorist organization. It ought to automatically be disbelieved until confirmed. Tossing in the words "the information could not be independently confirmed" is a cop out. They write an entire article about things and then toss in a caveat line that? Eight words?

They ought to be making it very clear in the articles on exactly who they are talking to. There are a lot of folks that go do not understand that the Palestinian Health Authority is part of the Hamas terrorist organization. It ought to be made clear and the reasons why these numbers may not be trustworthy ought to be clear.

Taking hamas word for anything would be like calling Tokyo Rose's broadcasts 'news'.

 

[o_mlly]

The only reason for this shameful insinuation that children can be valid targets is ...

The only reason for this shameful insinuation that children can be valid targets is …

The only category of people in the conflict that may not be targeted is as follows:​

Those not engaged in doing harm.​

Why do you persist in claiming children (need your definition of "children") can never be engaged in doing harm?

 

[Carl Emerson]

The case of al-Shifa: Investigating the assault on Gaza’s largest hospital​

The evidence presented by the Israeli government falls short of showing that Hamas had been using the hospital as a command and control center, a Post analysis shows.

The claims were remarkably specific — that five hospital buildings were directly involved in Hamas activities; that the buildings sat atop underground tunnels that were used by militants to direct rocket attacks and command fighters; and that the tunnels could be accessed from inside hospital wards. The assertions were backed by “concrete evidence,” Israel Defense Forces spokesman Daniel Hagari said as he laid out the case in an Oct. 27 briefing.

Hagari provided a clear picture of what he thought Israel forces would find, showing an animated video of what allegedly lay beneath the facility. In the film, masked militants patrolled on one level, which was connected to a warren of rooms further below ground with laptops and sleeping quarters.

But the evidence presented by the Israeli government falls short of showing that Hamas had been using the hospital as a command and control center, according to a Washington Post analysis of open-source visuals, satellite imagery and all of the publicly released IDF materials. That raises critical questions, legal and humanitarian experts say, about whether the civilian harm caused by Israel’s military operations against the hospital — encircling, besieging and ultimately raiding the facility and the tunnel beneath it — were proportionate to the assessed threat.
The Post’s analysis shows:

• The rooms connected to the tunnel network discovered by IDF troops showed no immediate evidence of military use by Hamas.
• None of the five hospital buildings identified by Hagari appeared to be connected to the tunnel network.
• There is no evidence that the tunnels could be accessed from inside hospital wards.

...

Several days later, when WHO medics arrived to evacuate those still inside, they said the place of healing had become a “death zone.” At least 40 patients — including four premature babies — died in the days leading up to the raid and its aftermath, the United Nations said.

...

The U.S. government has not made any of the declassified material public and the official would not share the intelligence this assessment [broadly agreeing with Israeli claims] was based on.

When asked if more evidence from al-Shifa would be forthcoming, the spokesperson said: “We cannot provide additional information.”

Yet... we saw video footage of the hostages being manhandled as captives through the hospital.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Yet... we saw video footage of the hostages being manhandled as captives through the hospital.

The following day, the IDF published an additional piece of evidence: security camera footage showing armed militants leading two hostages through the hospital on Oct. 7 — among some 240 captured during the assault on southern Israel. One appeared to be wounded and is on a gurney. It was not clear if the hostages were taken to the hospital for medical treatment or other purposes.

Hostage-taking is a crime under international law. But “misuse of the hospital five weeks before the IDF operation does not bear on the legality of the IDF operation,” Haque said.

Even the least favorable interpretation doesn't create a Hamas command center in the hospital. And if Hamas was using the hospital as a hospital -- to treat an injured hostage -- that would not be a justification for treating the hospital as a military target.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The following day, the IDF published an additional piece of evidence: security camera footage showing armed militants leading two hostages through the hospital on Oct. 7 — among some 240 captured during the assault on southern Israel. One appeared to be wounded and is on a gurney. It was not clear if the hostages were taken to the hospital for medical treatment or other purposes.

Hostage-taking is a crime under international law. But “misuse of the hospital five weeks before the IDF operation does not bear on the legality of the IDF operation,” Haque said.

Even the least favorable interpretation doesn't create a Hamas command center in the hospital. And if Hamas was using the hospital as a hospital -- to treat an injured hostage -- that would not be a justification for treating the hospital as a military target.

The all of the hostages didn't appear to be injured.

There was evidence of hostages being detained there.

 

[rjs330]

They seem to be broadly accurate. Vanellus has shown to what extent they can be assessed by independent researchers.

Those independent researchers werent there. They are guessing. Just because someone is a researcher doesn't mean they can verify anything from another continent. He doesn't know anymore that anyone else.

 

[rjs330]

The following day, the IDF published an additional piece of evidence: security camera footage showing armed militants leading two hostages through the hospital on Oct. 7 — among some 240 captured during the assault on southern Israel. One appeared to be wounded and is on a gurney. It was not clear if the hostages were taken to the hospital for medical treatment or other purposes.

Hostage-taking is a crime under international law. But “misuse of the hospital five weeks before the IDF operation does not bear on the legality of the IDF operation,” Haque said.

Even the least favorable interpretation doesn't create a Hamas command center in the hospital. And if Hamas was using the hospital as a hospital -- to treat an injured hostage -- that would not be a justification for treating the hospital as a military target.

There is testimony that Hamas used the hospital as a staging ground and there were Hamas fighters there. Maybe Israel didn't find what they thought was there. Maybe their military intelligence was wrong about a major operations and planning site. Oh well. That happens all the time in war. Military intelligence is never 100% accurate. But the truth is Hamas WAS there and WAS using the hospital for something. And that makes the hospital a legitimate target.

 

[civilwarbuff]

.

 

[Carl Emerson]

This interview with Bari Weiss is worth a watch to give context to our use of the news (from a top news maker) and how that relates to the conflict in Gaza.