Is Sola Scriptura Self-refuting?

[boughtwithaprice]

I think the actual text says that when they heard someone of a different denomination preaching a Christian doctrine -- they were able to read their Bible for themselves to "SEE IF" those things were SO - rather than blindly listening to their own magisterium's traditions and teachings and condemning Paul's teaching just as the magisterium for their Synagogue had dictated.

Let's see if the Bible affirms this obvious detail.

Acts 17:10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks

so then ... obvious for all to see that these were NOT Christians testing out their OWN Christian leadership - rather they were NON-Christians choosing to TEST the doctrine they had just heard in their Synagogue - against the Bible "alone" -- to "SEE IF" those things were so.


The point that is right there in the text is so glaringly obvious - perhaps this is why you object to the details we see IN the text AS it reads while your posts keep a certain distance from the quote, and the details..

You have free will and can reject whatever you wish.

Yes Bob, you are right to believe scripture rather than men, but do you really understand the story?
Paul was an Apostle, who had direct contact with Christ and was sent to preach the Gospel by Jesus Himself. The Bereans warned to test wether He was from God, so they searched the scriptures to verify his teaching.
They did not say, oh we understand now, we will make our own Berean sect apart from your apostolic authority as we can do it on our own now and need not your authority. That did not happen
If you want to be like the Bereans then you need to get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and study the whole thing to see what it says is scriptural

Reading the Bible and interpreting it on your own is not following the Apostolic faith. It is merely you trying to convince others of your way of thinking. By saying that your thoughts on scripture are always correct is making your words equal to God’s. You won’t accept correction. Is that what you want to do?

I pray for you Bob, you probably have a higher place in heaven than I do, but your thinking is all wrong on this scripture passage

 

[concretecamper]

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Another one who equates the Word with only scripture

 

[Gary K]

Another one who equates the Word with only scripture

Yup. Jesus also condemned the traditions of men.

Matthew 15: 1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mark 7: 1 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Paul also condemned the traditions of his fathers, the Pharisees.

Galatians 1: 13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

I'll stick with Jesus and Paul.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Yup.

I'll stick with Jesus and Paul.

Sounds like good advice, Gary, my question is, Do you really though?


Tell me: Contraception, does it come from God or men?

 

[concretecamper]

I'll stick with Jesus and Paul.

Great. Then you should listen to the Church, just as Jesus and Paul tells us to

Let me guess, you don't, do you?

 

[Gary K]

Sounds like good advice, Gary, my question is, Do you really though?


Tell me: Contraception, does it come from God or men?

Men. I have used it after I got married as I grew up in a very dysfunctional family and was not sure if I could be fair to my step kids.

 

[Gary K]

Great. Then you should listen to the Church, just as Jesus and Paul tells us to

Let me guess, you don't, do you?

Neither Jesus nor Paul told us to listen to traditions or the church. They told us to listen to scripture.

Acts 17: 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.

We see both the commending of those who followed scripture and the condemnation of those who followed traditions in one passage.

 

[concretecamper]

Neither Jesus nor Paul told us to listen to traditions or the church

Mat 18:17
1 Tim 3:15

They told us to listen to scripture.

Where? Citation please

Acts 17: 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.

This isn't even close to proving Sola Scriptura. The passage tells us the received the word with readiness. Then AFTER, they search the Tanahk. What was being taught was outside of typical Tanahk teaching. Imagine their comfort when they recognized that indeed the OT scriptures point to Christ .

 

[chevyontheriver]

Men.

Be fruitless and do not multiply.

 

[fhansen]

That's odd. Jesus Himself disagrees with you.

Matthew 4: 1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Jesus' own words refute your claims.

As I see it that passage and others support my claims. Jesus understood Scripture, because He, Himself, is the Word, and the fulfillment of Scripture. So He reveals it’s full, true meaning as no one else can. We have people babbling on about the meaning of Scripture without understanding it all day long, including right here on these forums. The necessity for correct interpretation and understanding is implied-and essential. His followers, who sat at His feet and learned from Him and witnessed all He said and did had the “real thing”, and passed down this knowledge. That continuous legacy of understanding is how we can be guaranteed that we possess the full gospel truth, that we are living by the Word of God.

 

[Gary K]

Be fruitless and do not multiply.

So as far as you're concerned a child's life being destroyed is A OK with you. I wasn't willing to take that chance. You want to condemn me for it? Have at it.

 

[Gary K]

As I see it that passage and others support my claims. Jesus understood Scripture, because He, Himself, is the Word, and the fulfillment of Scripture. So He reveals it’s full, true meaning as no one else can. We have people babbling on about the meaning of Scripture without understanding it all day long, including right here on these forums. The necessity for correct interpretation and understanding is implied-and essential. His followers, who sat at His feet and learned from Him and witnessed all He said and did had the “real thing”, and passed down this knowledge. That continuous legacy of understanding is how we can be guaranteed that we possess the full gospel truth, that we are living by the Word of God.

Really? The traditions of sinful men are absolute truth? They are as reliable as a sinless God?

 

[chevyontheriver]

So as far as you're concerned a child's life being destroyed is A OK with you. I wasn't willing to take that chance. You want to condemn me for it? Have at it.

Were you really going to destroy a child's life?

 

[Gary K]

Mat 18:17
1 Tim 3:15


Where? Citation please


This isn't even close to proving Sola Scriptura. The passage tells us the received the word with readiness. Then AFTER, they search the Tanahk. What was being taught was outside of typical Tanahk teaching. Imagine their comfort when they recognized that indeed the OT scriptures point to Christ .

That's why it points us to scripture. Scripture is always true. The sayings of sinful men are not. The point at which tradition and scripture part ways reveals the errors of sinful men.

I would point out to you that the Pharisees knew scripture but accepted their own traditions as greater than scripture. Thus Jesus' condemnation of their traditions as I've quoted here previously.

You want to follow the traditions of sinful men? Have at it. I will never join you in doing so.

 

[Gary K]

Were you really going to destroy a child's life?

It was my greatest fear. I was raised in a family which all members of it despised me. I was abused physically, emotionally, and sexually. My older brother tried to murder me when I was in the eighth grade. My parents played favorites all the time.

 

[The Liturgist]

Out of curiosity - are there any examples of participants here - other than Catholics - seeing this as anything other than Jewish believers in an actual Jewish Synagogue - reading their Bible to "see IF those things are SO" --- when confronted with the teaching of the Apostle Paul in Berea?

Is this detail even a tiny bit confusing for such non-Catholic participants??

Yes, I agree with the Roman Catholics entirely, and I am not a member of that church, and indeed could not be given my extreme opposition to Pope Francis.

Actually, a couple of weeks ago I myself presented you an argument along their lines similar to the argument being put forward by our Catholic brethren, but you failed to acknowledge it.

I would imagine our friends @MarkRohfrietsch @Shane R @dzheremi @prodromos and @ViaCrucis would disagree with your interpretation, since it is obvious that what the Bereans were doing was comparing the Christological interpretation of the Old Testament given to them by the Apostles to the Old Testament text. Otherwise, if it were as simple as you suggest, all of the Jews would have embraced Christ, but it is possible to misread the Old Testament in a purely legal-historical way that suppresses the exact Christological prophecies it contains. in fact Rabinnical Jews now argue there will be two messiahs, one descended from David and the other from Joseph, while Karaite Jews who if I recall you argued were an example of your definition of Sola Scriptura do not believe based on their understanding of the Old Testament there to be a devil.

This fact by itself should be enough to disprove the ideas of Scriptural Sufficiency and Perspicuity which you call Sola Scriptura, rather than the actual doctrine of Sola Scriptura as understood by Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer and John Wesley, which allowed for tradition and reason to guide the interpretation of sacred scripture.

 

[concretecamper]

That's why it points us to scripture. Scripture is always true. The sayings of sinful men are not. The point at which tradition and scripture part ways reveals the errors of sinful men.

I would point out to you that the Pharisees knew scripture but accepted their own traditions as greater than scripture. Thus Jesus' condemnation of their traditions as I've quoted here previously.

You want to follow the traditions of sinful men? Have at it. I will never join you in doing so.

Scripture IS always true and YOU are not always correct. Jesus didn't say listen to you and YOUR interpretation of scripture, He said listen to the Church. St Paul didn't call you the pillar and foundation of truth, he called the Church that. St Paul didn't call scripture the pillar and foundation of truth. Some inconvenient truths you have to deal with.

In fact, there is no explicit statement in Scripture telling us scripture is the sole authority. It is something you believe. Just don't be bothered by us who choose not to follow your man made idea.

 

[fhansen]

Really? The traditions of sinful men are absolute truth? They are as reliable as a sinless God?

And at the same time, you as sinful man claim to be able to interpret revelation correctly while denying that ability to someone else??

 

[Gary K]

Scripture IS always true and YOU are not always correct. Jesus didn't say listen to you and YOUR interpretation of scripture, He said listen to the Church. St Paul didn't call you the pillar and foundation of truth, he called the Church that. St Paul didn't call scripture the pillar and foundation of truth. Some inconvenient truths you have to deal with.

In fact, there is no explicit statement in Scripture telling us scripture is the sole authority. It is something you believe. Just don't be bothered by us who choose not to follow your man made idea.

And neither are you. We're both sinful human beings and other human beings just like us created traditions. You want to see their creations a equal to scripture go ahead. Have at it.

 

[Gary K]

And at the same time, you as sinful man claim to be able to interpret revelation correctly while denying that ability to someone else??

Not what I said. I never place my opinions on the same level as scripture. I'm fallible just the the sinners who created traditions.