Why Old Earth creationism doesn't work

[BNR32FAN]

Yes the Genesis account does say that creation was only what was ex materia created. Because the heavens and earth were ex materia created beginning in verse 3. Day 1 creation began in verse 3. And was completed by Day 7.

And yes, He did created heavens and earth in 6 days, completed on the 7th. And every time the Bible says "And God Said", it's describing those creative acts.

What does “in the beginning” mean? In the beginning of what?

 

[Job 33:6]

What does “in the beginning” mean? In the beginning of what?

The beginning of when God began creating ex materia.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‭-‬3‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

It's like saying "In the Beginning, Job created cookies" or "When Job began to create cookies" or "In the beginning when Job created cookies". The cookies were formless. And then Job said "let there be chocolate chips".

So "the beginning" is the beginning of the 7-day ex materia creation event. It's not about the ex nihilo beginning of everything that exists.

 

[Job 33:6]

The beginning of when God began creating ex materia.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‭-‬3‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

It's like saying "In the Beginning, Job created cookies" or "When Job began to create cookies" or "In the beginning when Job created cookies". The cookies were formless. And then Job said "let there be chocolate chips".

So "the beginning" is the beginning of the 7-day ex materia creation event. It's not about the ex nihilo beginning of everything that exists.

Creation doesn't have to be out of nothing. I can create a work of art. I can create a sports team. I can create a movie. I can create a recipe, or a meal.

Creating doesn't necessarily mean "out of nothing".

So when God creates in Genesis, "the beginning" is referring to the beginning of God creating ex materia, not out of nothing, but similar to a work of Art, God is creating order out of the pre-existent formless and void earth. Just like I can create cookies out of formless dough.

Earth is without form, then God creates it, then when God is finished/completed creating on day 7, it has form. And it's no longer void and empty, it's filled with life.

And then God "rests" on His throne. He takes up the throne to rule creation.

That's what Genesis is actually describing. It's not talking about things appearing out of empty space.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes the Genesis account does say that creation was only what was ex materia created. Because the heavens and earth were ex materia created beginning in verse 3. Day 1 creation began in verse 3. And was completed by Day 7.

And yes, He did created heavens and earth in 6 days, completed on the 7th. And every time the Bible says "And God Said", it's describing those creative acts.

So when the Bible says God created the heavens and the earth that’s not describing the creative acts? What makes you think that God has to say “let there be” in order for it to represent Him actually creating something? Why wouldn’t the words “God created” be insufficient for indicating that God has begun the creation process? No verse 1 is the beginning of the creation account hence the term “IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH”. That statement marks the beginning of the creation process. It marks the beginning of God’s work that He rested from on the 7th day.

“Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from ALL HIS WORK WHICH GOD HAD CREATED AND MADE.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Why do you think the term “which He had created (bara) and made (asah) is used here? This is a reference to both ex nihilo and ex materia. There’s nothing to indicate that Genesis 1:1 didn’t take place on the first day. Everything points to the entire complete creation and formation process from beginning to end being completed in 6 days.

Genesis 2:1-3 says He completed His work by the 7th day. Genesis 1:1 says that creation process began with the creation of the heavens and the earth. There’s no reason to separate verses 1-5, they all took place on the first day.

 

[Job 33:6]

So when the Bible says God created the heavens and the earth that’s not describing the creative acts? What makes you think that God has to say “let there be” in order for it to represent Him actually creating something? Why wouldn’t the words “God created” be insufficient for indicating that God has begun the creation process? No verse 1 is the beginning of the creation account hence the term “IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH”. That statement marks the beginning of the creation process. It marks the beginning of God’s work that He rested from on the 7th day.

“Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from ALL HIS WORK WHICH GOD HAD CREATED AND MADE.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Why do you think the term “which He had created (bara) and made (asah) is used here? This is a reference to both ex nihilo and ex materia. There’s nothing to indicate that Genesis 1:1 didn’t take place on the first day. Everything points to the entire complete creation and formation process from beginning to end being completed in 6 days.

Genesis 2:1-3 says He completed His work by the 7th day. Genesis 1:1 says that creation process began with the creation of the heavens and the earth. There’s no reason to separate verses 1-5, they all took place on the first day.

In Hebrew, there is no definite article before "Beginning". So some translations way "in the beginning" some say, "in the beginning when" and some say "when God began" etc.

Because there is no definite article, your argument is incomplete. And that's why I can simply quote other translations:

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth,


‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‭-‬2‬ ‭NIV‬‬
[1] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. [2] Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Notice verse 2 in the NIV begins with "Now" indicating that it's a continuation of verse 1. The formless earth is a part of verse 1 in a sense, describing background conditions.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NRSV‬‬
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth,


‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‭-‬2‬ ‭CEB‬‬
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth— [2] the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God’s wind swept over the waters—


CSB is a little different here as well, it starts with "When" and then uses a hyphen to connect verse 1 and 2.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭ERV‬‬
[1] In the beginning, when God created the earth and sky,

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭GNBDC‬‬
[1] In the beginning, when God created the universe,


Even in NASB if you look closely:

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‭-‬2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
[1] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. [2] And the earth was a formless and desolate emptiness, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

You'll see that NASB begins verse 2 with "And" suggesting continuation from verse 1, "and the earth was a formless and desolate emptiness".

Which is to say that it was formless in the beginning.

‭‭
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
[3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

And then NASB continues with "then", as in, subsequently, God begins creating with the spoken word.

 

[Job 33:6]

In Hebrew, there is no definite article before "Beginning". So some translations way "in the beginning" some say, "in the beginning when" and some say "when God began" etc.

Because there is no definite article, your argument is incomplete. And that's why I can simply quote other translations:

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth,


‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‭-‬2‬ ‭NIV‬‬
[1] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. [2] Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Notice verse 2 in the NIV begins with "Now" indicating that it's a continuation of verse 1. The formless earth is a part of verse 1 in a sense, describing background conditions.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NRSV‬‬
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth,


‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‭-‬2‬ ‭CEB‬‬
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth— [2] the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God’s wind swept over the waters—


CSB is a little different here as well, it starts with "When" and then uses a hyphen to connect verse 1 and 2.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭ERV‬‬
[1] In the beginning, when God created the earth and sky,

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭GNBDC‬‬
[1] In the beginning, when God created the universe,


Even in NASB if you look closely:

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‭-‬2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
[1] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. [2] And the earth was a formless and desolate emptiness, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

You'll see that NASB begins verse 2 with "And" suggesting continuation from verse 1, "and the earth was a formless and desolate emptiness".

Which is to say that it was formless in the beginning.

‭‭
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
[3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

And then NASB continues with "then", as in, subsequently, God begins creating with the spoken word.

So to answer the question, when the Bible says:

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‭-‬3‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was complete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

When the Bible says "When God began to create the heavens and the earth",

No, I do not consider that in and of itself a creative act of God. The creative act is verse 3, God's spoken Word. Verse 1 is just introduction.

When Job began to make cookies, the dough was formless. Then Job said "let there be chocolate chips".

The first sentence is just an introduction. The actual creation doesn't begin until verse 3.

 

[Job 33:6]

So when the Bible says God created the heavens and the earth that’s not describing the creative acts? What makes you think that God has to say “let there be” in order for it to represent Him actually creating something? Why wouldn’t the words “God created” be insufficient for indicating that God has begun the creation process? No verse 1 is the beginning of the creation account hence the term “IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH”. That statement marks the beginning of the creation process. It marks the beginning of God’s work that He rested from on the 7th day.

“Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from ALL HIS WORK WHICH GOD HAD CREATED AND MADE.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Why do you think the term “which He had created (bara) and made (asah) is used here? This is a reference to both ex nihilo and ex materia. There’s nothing to indicate that Genesis 1:1 didn’t take place on the first day. Everything points to the entire complete creation and formation process from beginning to end being completed in 6 days.

Genesis 2:1-3 says He completed His work by the 7th day. Genesis 1:1 says that creation process began with the creation of the heavens and the earth. There’s no reason to separate verses 1-5, they all took place on the first day.

Bara and Asah are interchangeable, they do not distinguish between ex nihilo and ex materia. Humanity is bara for example, though they are made of dust and rib.

And I've already responded above regarding the definite article before beginning.

Yes the creation process began in verse 3 with the creation (ex materia) of the heavens and earth. Just like my creation process of a batch of cookies can begin, ex materia with formless dough, on Tuesday, and extend 7 days in which my batch of cookies are fully baked and completed the following week. It has nothing to do with my cookie dough appearing ex nihilo out of thin air. I simply gave form (bara'd) to my cookie dough over 7-days. And on the 7th day of the week, my cookies were completed and ready to be eaten, and I rested on the throne and began enjoying them.


Another way to think about it is, imagine if I walked up and said,

"in the beginning, I created a cake".

This statement alone doesn't actually tell you when I created the cake. It doesn't tell you how I created the cake either. Nor does it tell you what beginning I am referring to. The beginning of the new year? The beginning of the day? The beginning of summer? What beginning?

So even translations that don't use the word "when", also can easily be understood with respect to ex materia creation.

So to help remove confusion, many translations use the word "when" to help the reader understand that the first verse is an introductory statement. "In the Beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was already a formless void. Then, subsequently, God began creating when He said "Let there be light".

And this is actually the traditional ancient near eastern contextual understanding of the text.

 

[BNR32FAN]

In Hebrew, there is no definite article before "Beginning". So some translations way "in the beginning" some say, "in the beginning when" and some say "when God began" etc.

Because there is no definite article, your argument is incomplete. And that's why I can simply quote other translations:

Your argument is still irrelevant because creating the earth still took place before forming it and it still marked the beginning of the creation process since we know that God created the earth from nothing. So your argument still doesn’t hold water because forming the earth was not when He began its creation, nor was it when He began His work.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Notice verse 2 in the NIV begins with "Now" indicating that it's a continuation of verse 1. The formless earth is a part of verse 1 in a sense, describing background conditions.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NRSV‬‬
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth,


‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‭-‬2‬ ‭CEB‬‬
[1] When God began to create the heavens and the earth— [2] the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God’s wind swept over the waters—


CSB is a little different here as well, it starts with "When" and then uses a hyphen to connect verse 1 and 2.

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭ERV‬‬
[1] In the beginning, when God created the earth and sky,

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭GNBDC‬‬
[1] In the beginning, when God created the universe,


Even in NASB if you look closely:

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‭-‬2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
[1] In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. [2] And the earth was a formless and desolate emptiness, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

You'll see that NASB begins verse 2 with "And" suggesting continuation from verse 1, "and the earth was a formless and desolate emptiness".

Which is to say that it was formless in the beginning.

‭‭
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
[3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

And then NASB continues with "then", as in, subsequently, God begins creating with the spoken word.

Yes the earth was formless when He created it. It still doesn’t change the fact that creating the earth from nothing was the beginning of His work.

 

[BNR32FAN]

When the Bible says "When God began to create the heavens and the earth",

No, I do not consider that in and of itself a creative act of God. The creative act is verse 3, God's spoken Word. Verse 1 is just introduction.

But you know that God created the earth from nothing and that was the beginning of His work. Verse 2 couldn’t exist without verse 1 being the creation of the earth from nothing. You can refuse to admit it but truth is not subjective to personal opinion. No matter how much you try you cannot escape the truth that God began His work by creating the earth from nothing.

 

[BNR32FAN]

When Job began to make cookies, the dough was formless. Then Job said "let there be chocolate chips".

You forget to mention that Job also created the dough before he began making the cookies. So Job rested from ALL his work on the 7th hour.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes the creation process began in verse 3 with the creation (ex materia) of the heavens and earth.

How did God begin to form the earth if He hadn’t created it yet?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Just like my creation process of a batch of cookies can begin, ex materia with formless dough, on Tuesday, and extend 7 days in which my batch of cookies are fully baked and completed the following week. It has nothing to do with my cookie dough appearing ex nihilo out of thin air. I simply gave form (bara'd) to my cookie dough over 7-days. And on the 7th day of the week, my cookies were completed and ready to be eaten, and I rested on the throne and began enjoying them.

Wrong because the creation of the dough is the beginning of the process. If someone else made the dough then your statement would be true but in this particular case since you made the dough that was the beginning of the cookie making process. That was the beginning of your work because it would be impossible for you to form the dough into cookies without making the dough first. This is all common sense and it’s clear that you’re just going to continue to refuse to admit the truth, that you’ve lost this argument. Like I said before truth is not subjective to personal or popular opinion. We are not free to interpret the scriptures however we choose because there’s only one truth and you don’t arrive at the truth by ignoring portions of scripture.

 

[Job 33:6]

Wrong because the creation of the dough is the beginning of the process. If someone else made the dough then your statement would be true but in this particular case since you made the dough that was the beginning of the cookie making process. That was the beginning of your work because it would be impossible for you to form the dough into cookies without making the dough first. This is all common sense and it’s clear that you’re just going to continue to refuse to admit the truth, that you’ve lost this argument. Like I said before truth is not subjective to personal or popular opinion. We are not free to interpret the scriptures however we choose because there’s only one truth and you don’t arrive at the truth by ignoring portions of scripture.

The creation of the dough isn't described in the Bible. That's not the story that the Bible is telling. Sorry to break it to you.

Just because you find that uncomfortable doesn't mean that you get to re-write the historical contextual understanding of the Bible.

 

[Job 33:6]

How did God begin to form the earth if He hadn’t created it yet?

The Bible tells the story of ex materia creation. God began to form the formless earth in verse 3 when He said "let there be light".

 

[Job 33:6]

You forget to mention that Job also created the dough before he began making the cookies. So Job rested from ALL his work on the 7th hour.

Not in the Bible he didn't. The Bible begins with the dough already formless. And creation ex materia begins in verse 3 with the spoken word.

And it's the same in Genesis chapter 2. No plants or trees, no rivers or streams. Then God formed man.

 

[Job 33:6]

But you know that God created the earth from nothing and that was the beginning of His work. Verse 2 couldn’t exist without verse 1 being the creation of the earth from nothing. You can refuse to admit it but truth is not subjective to personal opinion. No matter how much you try you cannot escape the truth that God began His work by creating the earth from nothing.

Not in the Bible it wasn't. The work began in verse 3 with the Word. Verse 1 is just an introduction.

 

[Job 33:6]

I'm going to fill you in on a secret.

The reason this seems so uncomfortable of a conclusion for you, that it is describing ex materia creation, is because you live in the 21st century, and you've been enlightened scientifically, and influenced by ex nihilo philosophical thought.

In the ancient near east, people didn't think the same way. They weren't influenced by things like big bang cosmology. They lived before Greek philosophers influenced though with ex nihilo concepts and theology.

You find it uncomfortable, reasonably so, because you live in the 21st century, in a scientifically modern world.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not in the Bible it wasn't. The work began in verse 3 with the Word. Verse 1 is just an introduction.

So God creating the earth from nothing wasn’t work?

 

[BNR32FAN]

The creation of the dough isn't described in the Bible. That's not the story that the Bible is telling. Sorry to break it to you.

That’s where you’re wrong because John 1:3 says that nothing came into being apart from God. And Maccabees 7:28 says that God created the earth from nothing. So the Bible does tell that story. You’re just refusing to admit it.