Why Old Earth creationism doesn't work

[BNR32FAN]

I'm going to fill you in on a secret.

The reason this seems so uncomfortable of a conclusion for you, that it is describing ex materia creation, is because you live in the 21st century, and you've been enlightened scientifically, and influenced by ex nihilo philosophical thought.

In the ancient near east, people didn't think the same way. They weren't influenced by things like big bang cosmology. They lived before Greek philosophers influenced though with ex nihilo concepts and theology.

You find it uncomfortable, reasonably so, because you live in the 21st century, in a scientifically modern world.

I didn’t become a Christian until I was 38 years old. I haven’t attended church very much. I stopped going to church when I realized that my church’s theology was not biblical. My theology comes directly from my own study. And if science was the influence of my theology, I certainly wouldn’t be a young earth creationist. So your accusation doesn’t make any sense at all.

 

[Job 33:6]

I didn’t become a Christian until I was 38 years old. I haven’t attended church very much. I stopped going to church when I realized that my church’s theology was not biblical. My theology comes directly from my own study. And if science was the influence of my theology, I certainly wouldn’t be a young earth creationist. So your accusation doesn’t make any sense at all.

It's not about science. It's about your entire worldview.

Where did you ever even learn about the concept of ex nihilo creation, and why do you assume it to be Biblical?

You should understand that in the age of the old testament, such an idea didn't exist at that point in history. There was no "ex nihilo" in the vocabulary or even thought of ancient near eastern isrealite literature.

So what I'm saying is that you have been influenced by more modern philosophy.

 

[Job 33:6]

That’s where you’re wrong because John 1:3 says that nothing came into being apart from God. And Maccabees 7:28 says that God created the earth from nothing. So the Bible does tell that story. You’re just refusing to admit it.

As noted before, just because the universe was created ex nihilo, doesn't mean my dough was as well. Bara does not mean ex nihilo creation. The question is not about IF God created ex nihilo, rather the question is, is that the story Genesis is telling? The answer is "No", Genesis is telling the story of ex materia creation.

And we've already addressed Maccabees as well.

28I beg you, child, to look at the heavens and the earth and see all that is in them; then you will know that God did not make them out of existing things. In the same way humankind came into existence.

Humankind didnt come into existence ex nihilo, humankind was made of dust and bone.

 

[Job 33:6]

I didn’t become a Christian until I was 38 years old. I haven’t attended church very much. I stopped going to church when I realized that my church’s theology was not biblical. My theology comes directly from my own study. And if science was the influence of my theology, I certainly wouldn’t be a young earth creationist. So your accusation doesn’t make any sense at all.

What you're suffering from is a hermeneutical issue known as "concordism". By understanding the ancient near eastern context, its easy to see that the text is actually describing ex materia creation over 7 days.

Just watch the video. Its clear as day.

 

[Job 33:6]

What you're suffering from is a hermeneutical issue known as "concordism". By understanding the ancient near eastern context, its easy to see that the text is actually describing ex materia creation over 7 days.

Just watch the video. Its clear as day.

Creatio ex nihilo - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In the first century, Philo of Alexandria, a Hellenized Jew, lays out the basic idea of ex nihilo creation, though he is not always consistent, he rejects the Greek idea of the eternal universe and he maintains that God has created time itself.[28] In other places it has been argued that he postulates pre-existent matter alongside God.[29] But other major scholars such as Harry Austryn Wolfson see that interpretation of Philo's ideas differently and argue that the so-called pre-existent matter was created.[30]

Saadia Gaon introduced ex nihilo creation into the readings of the Jewish bible in the 10th century CE in his work Book of Beliefs and Opinions where he imagines a God far more awesome and omnipotent than that of the rabbis, the traditional Jewish teachers who had so far dominated Judaism, whose God created the world from pre-existing matter.[31] Today Jews, like Christians, tend to believe in creation ex nihilo, although some Jewish scholars recognise that Genesis 1:1 recognises the pre-existence of matter to which God gives form.[32]


The above is just sourced in wiki^

But you should understand that ex nihilo creation wasnt a concept of the ancient near east. All ancient near east texts related to the creation of heaven and earth of ancient times were ex materia out of a formless earth and watery dark deep.

And its very easy to see this in Genesis.

 

[Job 33:6]

I didn’t become a Christian until I was 38 years old. I haven’t attended church very much. I stopped going to church when I realized that my church’s theology was not biblical. My theology comes directly from my own study. And if science was the influence of my theology, I certainly wouldn’t be a young earth creationist. So your accusation doesn’t make any sense at all.

Also, I know that people want to make the new testament and old testament fit together like a neat little puzzle. But to be fair, even the new testament was written perhaps 1,000 years after Genesis. So we shouldn't read new testament concepts backwards into Genesis.

It's the same reason we don't try to read the Trinity into the garden of Eden with Genesis 1:26 or at the tower of Babel.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Where did you ever even learn about the concept of ex nihilo creation, and why do you assume it to be Biblical?

John 1:3

You should understand that in the age of the old testament, such an idea didn't exist at that point in history. There was no "ex nihilo" in the vocabulary or even thought of ancient near eastern isrealite literature.

Maccabees 7:28 is in the Old Testament granted its late Old Testament but that’s still irrelevant since the Bible does in fact say that God did create the heavens and the earth from nothing. John 1:3 also says that nothing came into existence apart from Him. So if you don’t believe that ex nihilo creation is biblical then why did you agree that God did create ex nihilo in your previous posts?

Nobody ever said that God didn't create ex nihilo. It's just that Genesis is not telling that story. Genesis is telling a different story about an ex materia creation that lasted 7-days.

 

[Job 33:6]

So now that we've beat this dead horse for several pages of repeated arguments, I'll now explain what Genesis is actually about:

In the ancient near east, temples we inaugurated in 7-days. And it's even described in the Bible with Solomons temple.

The tabernacle:
Constructed in 7 stages
Priest ordination in 7 days
Adam and Eve given priestly duties.

Solomons temple:
Constructed in 7 years
Dedicated in 7 days
The dedication in the 7th month
Dedication speech in 7 petitions.

And God rests on His throne at the completion of the dedication. That's what God does on the 7th day, He takes up His heavenly throne in His Principal Temple, the cosmos.

See the following scriptural support and extrabiblical texts:

This is what the Lord says: “Heaven is My throne and the earth is the footstool for My feet. Where then is a Temple you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest?
Isaiah 66:1

see^ heaven and earth, it's the place where God rests in His temple.

The Lord is in His holy temple; the Lord’s throne is in heaven; His eyes see, His eyelids test the sons of mankind.
Psalms 11:4

“Now then arise, Lord God, to Your resting place, You and the ark of Your might; let Your priests, Lord God, be clothed with salvation, and let Your godly ones rejoice in what is good.
2 Chronicles 6:41

Until I find a place for the Lord, A dwelling place for the Mighty One of Jacob.” Let’s go into His dwelling place; Let’s worship at His footstool. Arise, Lord, to Your resting place, You and the ark of Your strength. ¶For the Lord has chosen Zion; He has desired it as His dwelling place. “This is My resting place forever; Here I will dwell, for I have desired it.
Psalms 132:5‭, ‬7‭-‬8‭, ‬13‭-‬14

His dwelling place is the place where He rests.

And you shall not go outside the entrance of the tent of meeting for seven days, until the days of your ordination are completed, for it will take seven days to ordain you.
Leviticus 8:33

temple priest ordination in 7 days.

And in the eleventh year, in the month of Bul, which is the eighth month, the house was finished in all its parts, and according to all its specifications. He was seven years in building it.
1 Kings 6:38

The Temple constructed in 7 years.

And all the men of Israel assembled to King Solomon at the feast in the month Ethanim, which is the seventh month.
1 Kings 8:2

Inauguation feast on the 7th month.

So Solomon held the feast at that time, and all Israel with him, a great assembly, from Lebo-hamath to the Brook of Egypt, before the Lord our God, seven days.
1 Kings 8:65

Temple inauguration feast on the 7th day.

temple dedicated to God on the 7th day of the 7th month, after 7 years, and what does God do?

And I will dwell among the Israelites, and I will not forsake my people Israel.”
1 Kings 6:13

“But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Even heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you, much less this Temple that I have built!

Hear the plea of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place; O hear in heaven your dwelling place; hear and forgive.
1 King‬ ‭8:27‬

As the glory of the Lord entered the temple by the gate facing east, the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple. While the man was standing beside me, I heard one speaking to me out of the temple, and he said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever. And the house of Israel shall no more defile my holy name, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoring and by the dead bodies of their kings at their high places,
Ezekiel 43:4‭-‬7 ESV

God rests.

genesis 1 split into 7 days to recognize the action of God taking presence in his temple. Kind of like a ceremony on which God prepares creation for His rulership.


- In the first month of the second year, on the first of the month, the tabernacle was set up.
1. And Moses raised the tabernacle, and he placed its bases, and he set up its frames, and he placed its bars, and he raised its pillars. And he spread the tent over the tabernacle; he placed the covering of the tent over it, above it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
2. And he took and he put the testimony into the ark, and he placed the poles on the ark, and he put the atonement cover on the ark, above it. And he brought the ark into the tabernacle, and he set up the curtain of the screening, and he shielded the ark of the testimony, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
3. And he put the table in the tent of assembly on the north side of the tabernacle outside the curtain. And he arranged on it an arrangement of bread before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
4. And he placed the lampstand in the tent of assembly opposite the table on the south side of the tabernacle. And he set up the lamps before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
5. And he placed the gold altar in the tent of assembly before the curtain. And he turned fragrant incense into smoke on it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
6. And he set up the entrance screen for the tabernacle. And the altar of burnt offering he placed at the entrance of the tabernacle of the tent of assembly, and he offered on it the burnt offering and the grain offering, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
7. And he placed the basin between the tent of assembly and the altar, and he put there water for washing. And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet from it. At their going into the tent of assembly and at their approaching the altar, they washed, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
-. And he set up the courtyard all around the tabernacle and the altar, and he put up the screen of the gate of the courtyard, and Moses completed the work.
Exodus 40:17‭-‬33 LEB

Let us go to his dwelling places; Let us worship at his footstool. Arise, O Yahweh, to your resting place, you and your mighty ark. For Yahweh has chosen Zion; he has desired it for his habitation. “This is my resting place forever; here I will dwell, for I have desired it.
Psalms 132:7‭-‬8‭, ‬13‭-‬14

Exodus and Genesis Temple parallels:

and the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there.
Genesis 2:12

This is the offering that you shall receive from them: gold, silver, and bronze,
Exodus 25:3

onyx stones and gems to be set in the ephod and for the breastpiece.
Exodus 25:7

He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and turning to guard the way to the tree of life.
Genesis 3:24

You shall make two cherubim of gold; you shall make them of hammered work, at the two ends of the mercy seat.
Exodus 25:18

So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all the work that he had done in creation.
Genesis 2:3

You shall keep the sabbath, because it is holy for you; everyone who profanes it shall be put to death; whoever does any work on it shall be cut off from among the people.
Exodus 31:14

*God blessed them*, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.” *God saw* everything that he had made and, *behold*, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning, a sixth day.
Genesis 1:31 LEB

And *Moses saw* all the work, and *behold*, they had done it; as the Lord had commanded, so had they done it. Then *Moses blessed them*.
Exodus 39:43 ESV

The Hebrew word ‘abad (עבד) can be translated as “to work,” “to serve,” or “to worship.” It is a common verb and is often used for cultivating the soil (Genesis 2:5, 3:23, 4:2,12). However, the word is also commonly used in a religious sense of serving God (Deuteronomy 4:19) and in priestly texts, especially regarding the tabernacle duties of the Levites (Numbers 3:7-8, 4:23-24, 4:26).

The second Hebrew word, translated as “to keep,” is shamar (שמר), which is commonly used for a priestly service of worship, as well as in legal texts of observing religious commands and duties (Leviticus 18:5). The word is also used for the Levitical responsibility of guarding the tabernacle from intruders (Numbers 1:53, 3:7-8)

From Genesis to Exodus to Jesus: What Biblical Typology Might Say about Modern Day Israel

I have often read and taught on the temple-imagery in Genesis 1–2, where the Garden of Eden is portrayed by Moses as the prototypical tabernacle. I have also read and taught how the tabernacl…

davidschrock.com

Ancient near east texts about heaven and earth being a cosmic temple:

He adorns Her with the covering of Her flesh.
She tears Her clothing.
On the second day
He adorns Her in the two rivers.
She sets a pot on the fire
A vessel on top of the coals.

Behold a day and a second,
The fire eats into the house,
The flame into the palace.
A fifth, a sixth day,
The fire eats into the house,
The flame in the midst of the palace.
Behold, on the seventh day,
The fire departs from the house,
The flame from the palace.
Silver turns from blocks,
Gold is turned from bricks.
baal cycle

A 7-day temple creation by the caananites^

House of the anuna gods possessing great power, which gives wisdom to the people, house, reposeful dwelling of the great gods! House, which was planned together with a plans of heaven and Earth. House which underpins the Land and supports the shrines! -Sumerian Temple Hymn of Kes.

The temple is heaven and earth^

When Anu, Enlil, and Ea had a first idea of heaven and Earth, that they found a wise means of providing support for the gods: They prepared, in the land, a pleasant dwelling. And the gods were installed in this dwelling: their principal Temple. Then they entrusted to the king the responsibility of assuring them their regular choice offerings. and for the feast of the gods, they established the required food offering! The gods loved this dwelling!
-akkadian prayer, temple dedication.

Heaven and earth is a temple^

Gudea, you were building my house for me, and were having The offices perform to perfection for me, You had my house shine for me, like Utu and heaven's midst, separating. Like a lofty foothill range, heaven from Earth.

Heaven and earth is a temple^

Solomons Temple:
‭‭1 Kings‬ ‭7:14‬ ‭NASB
[14] He was a widow’s son from the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, an artisan in bronze; and he was filled with wisdom, skill, and knowledge for doing any work in bronze. So he came to King Solomon and performed all his work.

Proverbs on Genesis:
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭3:19‭-‬20‬ ‭NASB
[19] The Lord founded the earth by wisdom, He established the heavens by understanding. [20] By His knowledge the ocean depths were burst open, And the clouds drip with dew.

The Tabernacle:
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭31:1‭-‬3‬ ‭NASB
[1] Now the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, [2] “See, I have called by name Bezalel, the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. [3] And I have filled him with the Spirit of God in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all kinds of craftsmanship,

knowledge and understanding of temple builders^

No holy house, no house of the gods, had been built in a pure place;
No reed had come forth, no tree had been created;
No brick had been laid, no brickmold had been created;
No house bad been built; no city had been created;
No city had been built, no settlement had been founded;
Nippur had not been built, Ekur had not been created;
The depths had not been built, Eridu had not been created;
No holy house, no house of the gods, no dwelling for them had been created.
All the world was sea,
The spring in the midst of the sea was only a channel,
Then was Eridu built, Esagila (temple) was created.

The dwelling, the temple, is the cosmos^

 

[Job 33:6]

John 1:3

Maccabees 7:28 is in the Old Testament granted its late Old Testament but that’s still irrelevant since the Bible does in fact say that God did create the heavens and the earth from nothing. John 1:3 also says that nothing came into existence apart from Him. So if you don’t believe that ex nihilo creation is biblical then why did you agree that God did create ex nihilo in your previous posts?

Maccabees is a 2nd temple period apocraphal text. Its not found among ancient near eastern texts. You're centuries removed from the context of Genesis.

I didnt say ex nihilo wasnt biblical. I'm just informing you that Genesis is not telling the story of ex nihilo creation.

In the same way, if I tell you a story about how I baked cookies in 7 hours, that doesnt negate my belief in ex nihilo creation. Its just not the story that I was trying to tell you.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Maccabees is a 2nd temple period apocraphal text. Its not found among ancient near eastern texts. You're centuries removed from the context of Genesis.

I didnt say ex nihilo wasnt biblical. I'm just informing you that Genesis is not telling the story of ex nihilo creation.

In the same way, if I tell you a story about how I baked cookies in 7 hours, that doesnt negate my belief in ex nihilo creation. It’s just not the story that I was trying to tell you.

You have to apply all scripture to arrive at the truth. Before John 1 nobody knew why the word “Us” and “Our” was written in Genesis 1:26. It doesn’t matter when the truth was revealed. Genesis was an inspired by God it was not written according to the knowledge of man so it’s irrelevant what they knew or believed at that time.

 

[Job 33:6]

You have to apply all scripture to arrive at the truth. Before John 1 nobody knew why the word “Us” and “Our” was written in Genesis 1:26. It doesn’t matter when the truth was revealed. Genesis was an inspired by God it was not written according to the knowledge of man so it’s irrelevant what they knew or believed at that time.

We know exactly what "us" and "our" means. It's referring to God's heavenly host. God is spoken of all throughout the old testament as having His host with Him. And that's how it is in ancient near east texts as well.

It has nothing to do with the Trinity.

 

[Job 33:6]

We know exactly what "us" and "our" means. It's referring to God's heavenly host. God is spoken of all throughout the old testament as having His host with Him. And that's how it is in ancient near east texts as well.

It has nothing to do with the Trinity.

And I agree that using all of scripture is important. But understanding context of scripture is an important factor in that.

This is from the Tower of Babel:

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭NIV‬‬
[7] Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

I mean, does anyone actually think that God the Father was instructing Jesus and the Holy Spirit to descend upon the builders of the tower of Babel?

No of course not. It's just describing God communicating with the angels of His council.

‭‭Psalm‬ ‭82:1‬ ‭ESV‬‬
[1] God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

‭‭Psalm‬ ‭89:5‭-‬7‬ ‭ESV‬‬
[5] Let the heavens praise your wonders, O Lord, your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones! [6] For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord? Who among the heavenly beings is like the Lord, [7] a God greatly to be feared in the council of the holy ones, and awesome above all who are around him?

‭‭Job‬ ‭38:4‬ ‭ESV‬‬
[4] “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
[7] when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


To read the Trinity backwards into Genesis is anachronistic. And it's the same thing with John 1:1-3. You just can't take the new testament and read it backwards, overwriting the old testaments context. The new testament is an important reference, but we can't just ignore the old testament as it was originally understood by its author and audience.

To understand Genesis, we have to start in Genesis, in the old testament, and in the ancient near east.

 

[Job 33:6]

So now that we've beat this dead horse for several pages of repeated arguments, I'll now explain what Genesis is actually about:

In the ancient near east, temples we inaugurated in 7-days. And it's even described in the Bible with Solomons temple.

View attachment 340086

The tabernacle:
Constructed in 7 stages
Priest ordination in 7 days
Adam and Eve given priestly duties.

Solomons temple:
Constructed in 7 years
Dedicated in 7 days
The dedication in the 7th month
Dedication speech in 7 petitions.

And God rests on His throne at the completion of the dedication. That's what God does on the 7th day, He takes up His heavenly throne in His Principal Temple, the cosmos.

See the following scriptural support and extrabiblical texts:

This is what the Lord says: “Heaven is My throne and the earth is the footstool for My feet. Where then is a Temple you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest?
Isaiah 66:1

see^ heaven and earth, it's the place where God rests in His temple.

The Lord is in His holy temple; the Lord’s throne is in heaven; His eyes see, His eyelids test the sons of mankind.
Psalms 11:4

“Now then arise, Lord God, to Your resting place, You and the ark of Your might; let Your priests, Lord God, be clothed with salvation, and let Your godly ones rejoice in what is good.
2 Chronicles 6:41

Until I find a place for the Lord, A dwelling place for the Mighty One of Jacob.” Let’s go into His dwelling place; Let’s worship at His footstool. Arise, Lord, to Your resting place, You and the ark of Your strength. ¶For the Lord has chosen Zion; He has desired it as His dwelling place. “This is My resting place forever; Here I will dwell, for I have desired it.
Psalms 132:5‭, ‬7‭-‬8‭, ‬13‭-‬14

His dwelling place is the place where He rests.

And you shall not go outside the entrance of the tent of meeting for seven days, until the days of your ordination are completed, for it will take seven days to ordain you.
Leviticus 8:33

temple priest ordination in 7 days.

And in the eleventh year, in the month of Bul, which is the eighth month, the house was finished in all its parts, and according to all its specifications. He was seven years in building it.
1 Kings 6:38

The Temple constructed in 7 years.

And all the men of Israel assembled to King Solomon at the feast in the month Ethanim, which is the seventh month.
1 Kings 8:2

Inauguation feast on the 7th month.

So Solomon held the feast at that time, and all Israel with him, a great assembly, from Lebo-hamath to the Brook of Egypt, before the Lord our God, seven days.
1 Kings 8:65

Temple inauguration feast on the 7th day.

temple dedicated to God on the 7th day of the 7th month, after 7 years, and what does God do?

And I will dwell among the Israelites, and I will not forsake my people Israel.”
1 Kings 6:13

“But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Even heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you, much less this Temple that I have built!

Hear the plea of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place; O hear in heaven your dwelling place; hear and forgive.
1 King‬ ‭8:27‬

As the glory of the Lord entered the temple by the gate facing east, the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple. While the man was standing beside me, I heard one speaking to me out of the temple, and he said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever. And the house of Israel shall no more defile my holy name, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoring and by the dead bodies of their kings at their high places,
Ezekiel 43:4‭-‬7 ESV

God rests.

genesis 1 split into 7 days to recognize the action of God taking presence in his temple. Kind of like a ceremony on which God prepares creation for His rulership.


- In the first month of the second year, on the first of the month, the tabernacle was set up.
1. And Moses raised the tabernacle, and he placed its bases, and he set up its frames, and he placed its bars, and he raised its pillars. And he spread the tent over the tabernacle; he placed the covering of the tent over it, above it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
2. And he took and he put the testimony into the ark, and he placed the poles on the ark, and he put the atonement cover on the ark, above it. And he brought the ark into the tabernacle, and he set up the curtain of the screening, and he shielded the ark of the testimony, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
3. And he put the table in the tent of assembly on the north side of the tabernacle outside the curtain. And he arranged on it an arrangement of bread before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
4. And he placed the lampstand in the tent of assembly opposite the table on the south side of the tabernacle. And he set up the lamps before Yahweh, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
5. And he placed the gold altar in the tent of assembly before the curtain. And he turned fragrant incense into smoke on it, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
6. And he set up the entrance screen for the tabernacle. And the altar of burnt offering he placed at the entrance of the tabernacle of the tent of assembly, and he offered on it the burnt offering and the grain offering, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
7. And he placed the basin between the tent of assembly and the altar, and he put there water for washing. And Moses and Aaron and his sons washed their hands and their feet from it. At their going into the tent of assembly and at their approaching the altar, they washed, as Yahweh had commanded Moses.
-. And he set up the courtyard all around the tabernacle and the altar, and he put up the screen of the gate of the courtyard, and Moses completed the work.
Exodus 40:17‭-‬33 LEB

Let us go to his dwelling places; Let us worship at his footstool. Arise, O Yahweh, to your resting place, you and your mighty ark. For Yahweh has chosen Zion; he has desired it for his habitation. “This is my resting place forever; here I will dwell, for I have desired it.
Psalms 132:7‭-‬8‭, ‬13‭-‬14

Exodus and Genesis Temple parallels:

and the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there.
Genesis 2:12

This is the offering that you shall receive from them: gold, silver, and bronze,
Exodus 25:3

onyx stones and gems to be set in the ephod and for the breastpiece.
Exodus 25:7

He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and turning to guard the way to the tree of life.
Genesis 3:24

You shall make two cherubim of gold; you shall make them of hammered work, at the two ends of the mercy seat.
Exodus 25:18

So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all the work that he had done in creation.
Genesis 2:3

You shall keep the sabbath, because it is holy for you; everyone who profanes it shall be put to death; whoever does any work on it shall be cut off from among the people.
Exodus 31:14

*God blessed them*, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.” *God saw* everything that he had made and, *behold*, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning, a sixth day.
Genesis 1:31 LEB

And *Moses saw* all the work, and *behold*, they had done it; as the Lord had commanded, so had they done it. Then *Moses blessed them*.
Exodus 39:43 ESV

The Hebrew word ‘abad (עבד) can be translated as “to work,” “to serve,” or “to worship.” It is a common verb and is often used for cultivating the soil (Genesis 2:5, 3:23, 4:2,12). However, the word is also commonly used in a religious sense of serving God (Deuteronomy 4:19) and in priestly texts, especially regarding the tabernacle duties of the Levites (Numbers 3:7-8, 4:23-24, 4:26).

The second Hebrew word, translated as “to keep,” is shamar (שמר), which is commonly used for a priestly service of worship, as well as in legal texts of observing religious commands and duties (Leviticus 18:5). The word is also used for the Levitical responsibility of guarding the tabernacle from intruders (Numbers 1:53, 3:7-8)

From Genesis to Exodus to Jesus: What Biblical Typology Might Say about Modern Day Israel

I have often read and taught on the temple-imagery in Genesis 1–2, where the Garden of Eden is portrayed by Moses as the prototypical tabernacle. I have also read and taught how the tabernacl…

davidschrock.com

Ancient near east texts about heaven and earth being a cosmic temple:

He adorns Her with the covering of Her flesh.
She tears Her clothing.
On the second day
He adorns Her in the two rivers.
She sets a pot on the fire
A vessel on top of the coals.

Behold a day and a second,
The fire eats into the house,
The flame into the palace.
A fifth, a sixth day,
The fire eats into the house,
The flame in the midst of the palace.
Behold, on the seventh day,
The fire departs from the house,
The flame from the palace.
Silver turns from blocks,
Gold is turned from bricks.
baal cycle

A 7-day temple creation by the caananites^

House of the anuna gods possessing great power, which gives wisdom to the people, house, reposeful dwelling of the great gods! House, which was planned together with a plans of heaven and Earth. House which underpins the Land and supports the shrines! -Sumerian Temple Hymn of Kes.

The temple is heaven and earth^

When Anu, Enlil, and Ea had a first idea of heaven and Earth, that they found a wise means of providing support for the gods: They prepared, in the land, a pleasant dwelling. And the gods were installed in this dwelling: their principal Temple. Then they entrusted to the king the responsibility of assuring them their regular choice offerings. and for the feast of the gods, they established the required food offering! The gods loved this dwelling!
-akkadian prayer, temple dedication.

Heaven and earth is a temple^

Gudea, you were building my house for me, and were having The offices perform to perfection for me, You had my house shine for me, like Utu and heaven's midst, separating. Like a lofty foothill range, heaven from Earth.

Heaven and earth is a temple^

Solomons Temple:
‭‭1 Kings‬ ‭7:14‬ ‭NASB
[14] He was a widow’s son from the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, an artisan in bronze; and he was filled with wisdom, skill, and knowledge for doing any work in bronze. So he came to King Solomon and performed all his work.

Proverbs on Genesis:
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭3:19‭-‬20‬ ‭NASB
[19] The Lord founded the earth by wisdom, He established the heavens by understanding. [20] By His knowledge the ocean depths were burst open, And the clouds drip with dew.

The Tabernacle:
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭31:1‭-‬3‬ ‭NASB
[1] Now the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, [2] “See, I have called by name Bezalel, the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. [3] And I have filled him with the Spirit of God in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all kinds of craftsmanship,

knowledge and understanding of temple builders^

No holy house, no house of the gods, had been built in a pure place;
No reed had come forth, no tree had been created;
No brick had been laid, no brickmold had been created;
No house bad been built; no city had been created;
No city had been built, no settlement had been founded;
Nippur had not been built, Ekur had not been created;
The depths had not been built, Eridu had not been created;
No holy house, no house of the gods, no dwelling for them had been created.
All the world was sea,
The spring in the midst of the sea was only a channel,
Then was Eridu built, Esagila (temple) was created.

The dwelling, the temple, is the cosmos^

Genesis is a description of the ex materia construction of God's Holy Temple, that is, the cosmos. Or in modern terms, the Universe.

In 7-days the temple is constructed. 7 being a number with Hebrew consonants denoting "completion". And at the end of the 7-days, that is 7-24 hour days, God rests on His throne to rule. In the Temples Throne-Room. Just like Solomon rests on a throne in Solomons temple. It's similar.


And that's how ancient near east temple texts are. Temples are made in 7 days. Temples consist of heaven and earth. God rests on the throne in Genesis and in ancient near east texts at the completion of a 7-day inauguration ceremony, celebrating Gods rulership over the cosmos.

That's what Genesis is. You'll notice no scientific information in Genesis. It's purely theology.

Genesis doesn't say anything about plate tectonics or the big bang or radiometric dating, or evolution, or anything like that. It's an ancient text. It doesn't include anything related to modern science.

It's talking about God's temple. Isaiah 66:1-2.

 

[Job 33:6]

Genesis is a description of the ex materia construction of God's Holy Temple, that is, the cosmos. Or in modern terms, the Universe.

In 7-days the temple is constructed. 7 being a number with Hebrew consonants denoting "completion". And at the end of the 7-days, that is 7-24 hour days, God rests on His throne to rule. In the Temples Throne-Room. Just like Solomon rests on a throne in Solomons temple. It's similar.


And that's how ancient near east temple texts are. Temples are made in 7 days. Temples consist of heaven and earth. God rests on the throne in Genesis and in ancient near east texts at the completion of a 7-day inauguration ceremony, celebrating Gods rulership over the cosmos.

That's what Genesis is. You'll notice no scientific information in Genesis. It's purely theology.

Genesis doesn't say anything about plate tectonics or the big bang or radiometric dating, or evolution, or anything like that. It's an ancient text. It doesn't include anything related to modern science.

It's talking about God's temple. Isaiah 66:1-2.

And not only that, but as noted several times now, the backdrop context involves ancient near east cosmology.

It is abundantly clear, that the text is not to be confused with science. That's not what the Bible is about. That's not what it talks about.

The Bible doesn't say anything about the age of the earth, no more than it talks about cell phones or laptops, or modern LGBTQ politics, or anything modern. It doesn't talk about ex nihilo creation either. These are modern ideas. These ideas are part of a modern culture that we live in.

The old testament authors and audience didn't know of these things. They didn't think about these things. Didn't talk about them. That's not their culture.

Anyone who thinks that Genesis talks about the age of the Earth is guilty of the same hermeneutical crime as people who think that the Bible talks about anything else of modern age.

There are no helicopters or Apache military vehicles in the book of Daniel.

There are no, space aliens in Genesis 6 (the nephelim).

There are no discussions of capitalism in 1 kings.

These are modern cultural ideas. And they should not be read backwards into the Bible where they don't belong.

 

[BNR32FAN]

We know exactly what "us" and "our" means. It's referring to God's heavenly host. God is spoken of all throughout the old testament as having His host with Him. And that's how it is in ancient near east texts as well.

It has nothing to do with the Trinity.

It absolutely refers to the Trinity because it’s directly related to Christ.

 

[Job 33:6]

It absolutely refers to the Trinity because it’s directly related to Christ.

Well, who do you think "Us" is in other places in Genesis, such as in Babel? Do you also think that Jesus descended from heaven to confuse the languages of the builders?

Surely you can see why this is a hermeneutical issue.

The pre existence of Jesus, theologically is true. But that doesn't mean that we should then read this into Genesis. Otherwise Genesis would just mention Jesus if He were understood to be in the text.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And I agree that using all of scripture is important. But understanding context of scripture is an important factor in that.

This is from the Tower of Babel:

‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭NIV‬‬
[7] Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

I mean, does anyone actually think that God the Father was instructing Jesus and the Holy Spirit to descend upon the builders of the tower of Babel?

No of course not. It's just describing God communicating with the angels of His council.

‭‭Psalm‬ ‭82:1‬ ‭ESV‬‬
[1] God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

‭‭Psalm‬ ‭89:5‭-‬7‬ ‭ESV‬‬
[5] Let the heavens praise your wonders, O Lord, your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones! [6] For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord? Who among the heavenly beings is like the Lord, [7] a God greatly to be feared in the council of the holy ones, and awesome above all who are around him?

‭‭Job‬ ‭38:4‬ ‭ESV‬‬
[4] “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
[7] when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


To read the Trinity backwards into Genesis is anachronistic. And it's the same thing with John 1:1-3. You just can't take the new testament and read it backwards, overwriting the old testaments context. The new testament is an important reference, but we can't just ignore the old testament as it was originally understood by its author and audience.

To understand Genesis, we have to start in Genesis, in the old testament, and in the ancient near east.

Then you don’t understand a thing about revelation. The New Testament doesn’t overwriting the Old Testament texts, it’s revealing more information about them. John 1:1-3 specifically says that everything was created thru Jesus and nothing was created except thru Him. That statement reveals to us information that was not known by the Jews. Jews are monotheists they knew nothing about Christ being a part of the Trinity or His involvement with creation until John 1.

 

[Jimmy It]

A billion year is a wisp of vapor in the wind.
In Ezekeil, 28:12 speaking of Satan, We see his choice of self over God.

“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’

Satan may be referred to as that serpent, but appears as an angel of light.
Satan also has access to the throne of God.
Job 1:6
One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

Time means nothing in eternity...

 

[Job 33:6]

Then you don’t understand a thing about revelation. The New Testament doesn’t overwriting the Old Testament texts, it’s revealing more information about them. John 1:1-3 specifically says that everything was created thru Jesus and nothing was created except thru Him. That statement reveals to us information that was not known by the Jews. Jews are monotheists they knew nothing about Christ being a part of the Trinity or His involvement with creation until John 1.

I agree that Jews wouldnt know of such things. But in addition, ancient isrealite authors wouldn't know of such things either. That's just not their context.

And you can't just say "it's revelation" anytime you want to read modern information backwards into the Bible. If John Explicitly denied ex materia in favor of ex nihilo creation in Genesis, that would be a different matter. But John never says such a thing.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Bible doesn't say anything about the age of the earth, no more than it talks about cell phones or laptops, or modern LGBTQ politics, or anything modern. It doesn't talk about ex nihilo creation either. These are modern ideas. These ideas are part of a modern culture that we live in.

You said yourself that God created the earth Ex nihilo. Now you’re saying it’s not biblical?