Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Carl Emerson]

It is a sign of good will on both sides and those who helped in
negotiating.

David felled the mighty Goliath with one smooth pebble that entered Goliath's visir.
Not unsurprisingly the so called learned had to distract by discussing if Goliath fell backwards or fowards.

,

Yes - I like your comment...

Are you confident that both sides capable of 'good will' ?????

 

[rjs330]

It seems you are continuing to equate all Palestinians with Hamas and other terror groups operating in Gaza.

Palestinians conducted the attack. Palestinians support Hamas. Palestinians who are not Hamas helped Hamas. Now tell me which Palestinians are Hamas, which ones are supporters and which ones are helping them? If I gave you a crowd and asked you to pick out Hamas, their supporters or helpers and ones that weren't, could you do it? I mean before they killed you. I do t think you could. Oh if there were kids there you could circle them and say, well they aren't Hamas. Are they Hamas' kids who are being taught to kill you? Are they Hamas supporters kids who are also being taught to sill you? If You knew that there were Hamas there and they were going to kill you and you had a choice, either wait to die or try and kill Hamas before they killed you and you knew in doing so you were going to end up killing some non-Hamas, would you just give up and die?

What if you were the one standing between Hamas and you family and friends and you knew if you didn't they would be coming after your children and you wife to slaughter them and you had the ability to prevent it? Would you just lay down and die? Would you ask that if your son, daughter or wife?

Or would you say you are not going to kill mine so I'm going to take you out and if some others have to die to prevent that from happening then so be it. It's on your head.

You know I've used these kinds of analogies before, but none of you have an answer for me. No one ever addresses the issue.

You all expect the impossible to be done. Why do you think the walls were built? Why do you think the Israeli's use the blockade? The naivete is astounding from the left. It boggles the mind.

 

[Robban]

Yes - I like your comment...

Are you confident that both sides capable of 'good will' ?????

Well, at least they are talking, even if it is through a negotiator.

It is a beginning.
The hostages that have been freed appear to have been treated well.

"No one was ever reformed by being robbed of human dignity."
(The Rebbe)

 

[rjs330]

Since you consider those who have an opposing point of view in this thread to be naive "armchair quarterbacks" who don't understand what and how things need to be done when it comes to fighting Hamas, what makes you so confident that your position on how to respond to and defeat Hamas is correct and that of others is not?

Because others have not provided any other way to defeat Hamas. Others want Israel to stop. Stopping won't defeat Hamas. Hamas isn't going to stop.

Telling Israel they cannot kill anymore civilians won't defeat Hamas because Hamas hides among civilians, which logically tells you you can't defeat Hamas. You just have to accept that you might be killed and can't do anything about it because you might kill some civilians.

Israel IS defeating Hamas. What they are doing is working. Armchair quarterbacks can sit back and tell the ones facing the bullets that they have to just take it because they might hit civilians, disregarding the fact that those civilians most likely support Hamas and their fight against Israel.

Just like we saw and heard about at the hospital.

 

[Pommer]

The vast majority of Gazans do.

And, therefore are “Hamas-supporters”?

 

[rjs330]

In less than two months, more than twice as many women and children have been reported killed in Gaza than in Ukraine after two years of war.


As I have stated previously, Israel chose to use these weapons which have resulted in mass civilian deaths, most of whom are women and children. Israel will have to answer for that choice.

Israel’s liberal use of very large weapons in dense urban areas, including U.S.-made 2,000-pound bombs that can flatten an apartment tower, is surprising, some experts say.

“It’s beyond anything that I’ve seen in my career,” said Marc Garlasco, a military adviser for the Dutch organization PAX and a former senior intelligence analyst at the Pentagon. To find a historical comparison for so many large bombs in such a small area, he said, we may “have to go back to Vietnam, or the Second World War.”

In fighting during this century, by contrast, U.S. military officials often believed that the most common American aerial bomb — a 500-pound weapon — was far too large for most targets when battling the Islamic State in urban areas like Mosul, Iraq, and Raqqa, Syria.

...
More women and children have been reported killed in Gaza in less than two months than the roughly 7,700 civilians documented as killed by U.S. forces and their international allies in the entire first year of the invasion of Iraq in 2003, according to estimates from Iraq Body Count, an independent British research group.

And the number of women and children reported killed in Gaza since the Israeli campaign began last month has already started to approach the roughly 12,400 civilians documented to have been killed by the United States and its allies in Afghanistan during nearly 20 years of war, according to Neta C. Crawford, co-director of Brown University’s Costs of War Project.

Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed at Historic Pace (Published 2023)

Even a conservative assessment of the reported Gaza casualty figures shows that the rate of death during Israel’s assault has few precedents in this century, experts say.

www.nytimes.com

This is an important point. And often is subtle to get. The question becomes do you want to fight a 20 year war? Because if you are so afraid of killing civilians in a war of this nature then it's going to be a very long drawn out affair. The allies defeated Germany and Japan in just a few years. And that was over a much larger area than Afghanistan or Iraq.

Dragging out a war only costs more of your peoples lives and more money. This is precisely why we lost the Vietnam war. People started crying "it's too much!". It's exactly why S Vietnam was taken over by the communists.

War is an ugly thing and death is a certainty. But if you are going fight one then it should be over as quickly as possible. I know a lot of good men who died in Afghanistan who didn't need to. All because America was too squeamish and fought a politically correct war.

 

[rjs330]

And, therefore are “Hamas-supporters”?

Yes, when you support Hamas attacks against Israel you are a Hamas supporter. When you teach your children to hate and want to kill Jews you are a Hamas supporter.

 

[Pommer]

Perfect example of how having terrorists run your govt. never ends well for the population. But I personally don't believe the gazans will learn a thing from this experience. They have tried the same thing time and again and get the same results. It seems like the gaza strip is one big mental institution. Time to lock it up and throw away the key.

But this doesn’t automatically make the Israelis “the good guys”.

 

[rjs330]

When this is over I would love to see Israel and the western world rebuild Gaza. I would want them to require that Gaza sign an agreement with Israel to disarm and install a government that agrees to peace and a willingness to open good relations with Israel including trade relations. Gaza would have to recognize Israel as a state and it's right to exist without being attacked. In return Israel will remove blockades and help rebuild Gaza. Gaza would guarantee that they will fully cooperate with Israel should any terrorist attack come from Gaza and would help identify who and where the terrorists are and that Israel would be allowed to come and take them out. I would also have the understanding that if a terrorist attack comes from a school, hospital, apartment building etc then Israel would have the right to destroy that building. And that Gaza would be responsible for rebuilding it. There would be NO education or children either in schools or media teaching Gazan children to hate and kill Jews. Israel could agree to not have any military presence in Gaza after a certain number of years. Gaza would be given fee reign to govern its people and police them. Any terrorist would be arrested and turned over to Israel. And if Gaza couldn't handle the terrorists in their own that they would work with Israeli Special Forces to either take them out or place them in custody. Israel would open good trade relations with Gaza for the trading of goods with Gaza.

 

[Desk trauma]

When this is over I would love to see Israel and the western world rebuild Gaza. I would want them to require that Gaza sign an agreement with Israel to disarm and install a government that agrees to peace and a willingness to open good relations with Israel including trade relations. Gaza would have to recognize Israel as a state and it's right to exist without being attacked. In return Israel will remove blockades and help rebuild Gaza. Gaza would guarantee that they will fully cooperate with Israel should any terrorist attack come from Gaza and would help identify who and where the terrorists are and that Israel would be allowed to come and take them out. I would also have the understanding that if a terrorist attack comes from a school, hospital, apartment building etc then Israel would have the right to destroy that building. And that Gaza would be responsible for rebuilding it. There would be NO education or children either in schools or media teaching Gazan children to hate and kill Jews. Israel could agree to not have any military presence in Gaza after a certain number of years. Gaza would be given fee reign to govern its people and police them. Any terrorist would be arrested and turned over to Israel. And if Gaza couldn't handle the terrorists in their own that they would work with Israeli Special Forces to either take them out or place them in custody. Israel would open good trade relations with Gaza for the trading of goods with Gaza.

...and everyone gets a puppy too.

 

[rjs330]

But this doesn’t automatically make the Israelis “the good guys”.

Yes Isaelis are the good guys. Failing to see that is a huge part of the problem. One must recognize that the good guys don't mean they have white hats and do nothing wrong. Good guys make mistakes. Good guys sometimes so things they shouldn't. But at least they are trying to be the good guys and overall do the right things.

I'm sure you consider yourself a good guy. But being a good guy doesn't mean you are perfect in execution. But at least you are trying. There have been times I'm sure you have deliberately done the wrong thing. But that doesn't make you a bad guy. It depends on what you do and how often you do it. What's the tone of your life? Are you trying to do the right things and trying not to do the wrong things?

Being a good guy in no way means perfection, because none of us are and no government or country is. Israel is the good guy. And they've had enough from the bad guys. Have they been been perfectly good in this war. Probably not. Have they made mistakes? Probably so. No war can be fought with perfection. Especially when fighting bad guys who have ZERO compunction about trying to do anything good but are sold lock stock and barrel to doing evil.

 

[rjs330]

...and everyone gets a puppy too.

I guess if they agreed to that. Maybe that might help relations. I mean who hates puppies?

 

[Desk trauma]

I guess if they agreed to that. Maybe that might help relations.

Right after the world record setting kumbaya sing along on the old border.

 

[rjs330]

As I've written before it's so much more civilised bombing densely populated urban areas from 20,000 ft resulting in 10X more deaths.

Well it's smarter than trying to do it building to building and risking more of your soldiers lives.

 

[rjs330]

Right after the world record setting kumbaya sing along on the old border.

That would also be cool. Certainly might help as well.

 

[Desk trauma]

That would also be cool. Certainly might help as well.

Sunrise in the west may help too.

 

[Chesterton]

West and east are just social constructs.

 

[Bradskii]

This is precisely why we lost the Vietnam war. People started crying "it's too much!".

US and allied military: 280,000
PAVN/VC military deaths: 500,000+
Vietnamese civilian deaths: 500,000+
Cambodians: 250,000+
Laotians: 60,000+

Is it any wonder? Kill so many innocents and people have a tendency to complain.

 

[Bradskii]

I'm sure you consider yourself a good guy. But being a good guy doesn't mean you are perfect in execution. But at least you are trying. There have been times I'm sure you have deliberately done the wrong thing.

So what should his friends do at this time?

 

[Bradskii]

Well it's smarter than trying to do it building to building and risking more of your soldiers lives.

So it's better to have more civilian deaths guaranteed than soldiers at risk. I think we've seen that tactic before. See my last post.