Anyone notice that many people are scientifically illiterate

[Astrid]

You may not of said it, but the thought is out there. I've heard it voiced occasionally be people bewilder by what they are hearing.

The point I was hoping to look at is the denial of what the Earth and Cosmos are showing us. Some, as we have even seen here, go so far as to say that what "science" is showing us about the Earth, it's long history for instance, that the scientist are sucked into and teaching a lie spawned by Satan. That's a pretty big disconnect that makes me consider the scientific ignorance argument as a valid perspective.

Your post came right after mine, so...

But to be yet more concise about yec- ism,
the choice is to be ignorant, or intellectally
dishonest.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Of course cientific and every sort of other ignorance is
a thing, with many causes. Detailing it is merely tedious.

Offhand, though, I know of no powerful social
institution that mandates scientific ignorance
other than fundamentalist Christianity.

If there's another with even a tenth of the effect,
perhaps you can alleviate my ignorance in that regard.

The problem I have is with the definition of science. it used to be based on observation and experiement. It had to be repeatable. To a degree, that is still the case. I regularly hear from Professor James Tour, a leader in microbiology, who has published many papers, has many patents and started many businesses to turn research into useful products. He is much abused by other "scientists" for rejecting OOL claims that life could arise spontaneously.

OOL research has simply demonstrated that life cannot, in all likelihood, arise spontaneously. However, the scientific community gets in a rage when this is stated. Obviously, to them the alternative is too horrible to contemplate. So called science's answer is to attack the messenger. Professor Tour was ridiculed by a well known "scientist" who had not even seen the presentation. Is that a scientific approach? Start with an unprovable assumption, reject 70 years of failed research and abuse a prominent (real) scientist who points out the false OOL assumptions?

This is just one example. I won't bore you with more. I will reiterate that I believe that real science has great value and for the world. I'm not anti science. I do hate to see the terrible waste of money, energy and talent that goes into particle physics reseach and the like.

 

[Bradskii]

Professor Tour was ridiculed...

Tour is a member of the Discovery Institute. And as such would have signed their 'Statement of Faith'. Which, in part, says this:

"No apparent or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology can be valid if it contradicts scripture".

So I will therefore discount any argument he has regarding abiogenesis. Also without needing to see it.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Tour is a member of the Discovery Institute. And as such would have signed their 'Statement of Faith'. Which, in part, says this:

"No apparent or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology can be valid if it contradicts scripture".

So I will therefore discount any argument he has regarding abiogenesis. Also without needing to see it.

A strange position to take. Professor Tour is at pains to say that his objections are purely scientific. He does not bring God into any of his presentations. I have no issue accepting the research of an atheist if they have observations, experimental data and repeatability to back up their claims. Facts are facts whatever the belief system of the one quoting them. For example, I often use statements from unbelievers who refute the FE Christians beliefs. Truth is truth. It is not subjective. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with that statement.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Tour is a member of the Discovery Institute. And as such would have signed their 'Statement of Faith'. Which, in part, says this:

"No apparent or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology can be valid if it contradicts scripture".

So I will therefore discount any argument he has regarding abiogenesis. Also without needing to see it.

I looked up Christians who are well known in the scientific disciplines. There are way too many to list. So you would immediately discount the learning of people Like Francis Bacon, Galileo Galilei, Johannes Kepler, Balise Pascal, Robert Boyle, Isaac Newton, Emanuel Swedenborg, Joseph Priestly, Alessandro Volta just to name a few of the pioneers?

 

[Aussie Pete]

It's ironic how this thread has turned into examples of scientific illiteracy.

It's ironic that many of the most influential scientists in the last 1,000 years were Christian. Isaac Newton did explain gravity. Somewhere around AD 725, the Christian monk Bede described the earth as an orb. Evolution is still a theory that cannot be proven.

 

[Bradskii]

A strange position to take. Professor Tour is at pains to say that his objections are purely scientific.

Then he should present them to a scientific audience. But what he does is preach to the choir. All his videos are geared to an audience who are, mostly, scientifically illiterate. Who want to believe what he says. All his in-person presentations are to religious groups.

He may believe what he says. But unless he presents specific evidence for it then the Statement Of Belief that he signed renders his opinions irrelevant. What you actually will find (I've checked this guy out a long time back) is that all he does is cast doubt on any proposals made for abiogenesis. Which is fine. But if you say 'It can't have happened in this way' then you need to present your scientific evidence to a scientifically literate audience which shows it. He doesn't. He's a naysayer who readily admits that he doesn't understand the evolutionary process.

A

 

[Divide]

Standing up against govt for what's right v " stay out of
trouble". What would the boys of 1776 say.

They'd say " Stand", or maybe " give me liberty, or... "
It's known to some as " courage of convictions".

But I just knew youd come up with something belittling and negative. Silly me, gueessing maybe not. Won't happen again.

Belittling and negative? Maybe against the government. SO I have always tried to stay out of trouble. So what? SHould I go start a buildng on fire or something?

Now I don't know why they beat you up or jailed you, was it because you speak the gospel of Christ or something? They are not doing that here yet. Maybe next month it will be different?

 

[Aussie Pete]

Then he should present them to a scientific audience. But what he does is preach to the choir. All his videos are geared to an audience who are, mostly, scientifically illiterate. Who want to believe what he says. All his in-person presentations are to religious groups.

He may believe what he says. But unless he presents specific evidence for it then the Statement Of Belief that he signed renders his opinions irrelevant. What you actually will find (I've checked this guy out a long time back) is that all he does is cast doubt on any proposals made for abiogenesis. Which is fine. But if you say 'It can't have happened in this way' then you need to present your scientific evidence to a scientifically literate audience which shows it. He doesn't. He's a naysayer who readily admits that he doesn't understand the evolutionary process.

A

Rubbish. He challenged some of the leading lights in the scientific community to show where he was wrong. No one could. He debated "Professor Dave (who is not a professor) to a debate. The fake Professor could only slander the real professor because he had no arguments to make. You should check your facts. He does not only present to religious groups. He does not understand the evolutionary process beacuse there is no evolutionary process. As he says, there is no mechanism. And as I'm reminded by the atheists who frequent the chat, OOL and evolution are entirely separate subjects. Professor Tour's speciality is prebiotic chemistry. That is exactly what OOL is about.

The specific evidence against abiogenesis is pretty straightforward. 70 or so years of research have achieved nothing. And that in labs, not in some chemical soup.

Tell me, how can life itself, the life force, just arise by itself? When an organism dies, the components break down. Surely there are enough basic amino acids, carbohydrates, proteins and lipids etc. to self assemble into a cell? Yet they do not, in spite of an abundance, if the organism is of any size.

 

[Astrid]

Belittling and negative? Maybe against the government. SO I have always tried to stay out of trouble. So what? SHould I go start a buildng on fire or something?

Now I don't know why they beat you up or jailed you, was it because you speak the gospel of Christ or something? They are not doing that here yet. Maybe next month it will be different?

Bye

 

[Astrid]

The problem I have is with the definition of science. it used to be based on observation and experiement. It had to be repeatable. To a degree, that is still the case. I regularly hear from Professor James Tour, a leader in microbiology, who has published many papers, has many patents and started many businesses to turn research into useful products. He is much abused by other "scientists" for rejecting OOL claims that life could arise spontaneously.

OOL research has simply demonstrated that life cannot, in all likelihood, arise spontaneously. However, the scientific community gets in a rage when this is stated. Obviously, to them the alternative is too horrible to contemplate. So called science's answer is to attack the messenger. Professor Tour was ridiculed by a well known "scientist" who had not even seen the presentation. Is that a scientific approach? Start with an unprovable assumption, reject 70 years of failed research and abuse a prominent (real) scientist who points out the false OO" " L assumptions?

This is just one example. I won't bore you with more. I will reiterate that I believe that real science has great value and for the world. I'm not anti science. I do hate to see the terrible waste of money, energy and talent that goes into particle physics reseach and the like.

You don't get to define what is " real" science,
except to please yourself with an attempt maintaining, yes,
intellectual honesty. It's pellucid, fools nobody but yourself.

You are certainly anti science if you reject it as it actually
is in favour of a fantasy version that fits your beliefs.

Your anecdote with garbage like " too
horrible to contemplate" is of no value or relevance.

Science does not mandate ignorance and
intellectual dishonesty.
Fundamentalist Christianity does.


You didn't even vaguely approach an actual
response, far less an honest acceptance of obvious facts.

Observed facts about creationism that we've seen
repeated endlessly in these very pages. Incl. by you.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Standing up against govt for what's right v " stay out of
trouble". What would the boys of 1776 say.

They'd say " Stand", or maybe " give me liberty, or... "
It's known to some as " courage of convictions".

But I just knew youd come up with something belittling and negative. Silly me, gueessing maybe not. Won't happen again.

You have my respect for standing up to the CCP. That takes courage.

Many Christians are in China's prisons for refusing to back down on their Christian beliefs. It is a matter of choosing which battles to fight. For example, the speed limits on the roads here are silly. They are way too low on the main roads. I obey them because it's not worth fighting over and because God requires obedience to the civil authorities. That is, until those laws clash with God's will. Then I must obey God and not man, whatever it costs me.

I get in trouble with some of my American friends. I believe 1776 was a big mistake. The civil war was a consequence. America could have gained independence without violence. As you can imagine, not many Americans agree with me.

The Western world has certainly lost its way. Truth is anything that someone wants to believe. That's a recipe for disaster. Too many doubt that man landed on the moon and they believe that the earth is flat. What is worse, no amount of evidence can change their minds. I'm 72, so I probably won't see the coming strife that will afflict the world. What troubles me most is that these same people will be in the public service or be elected to government soon.

I travelled SE Asia a lot in the 1970's, including A few days in Hong Kong. I was impressed by the Chinese I met. Hard workers, smart, excellent negotiators. I could see that China would become a powerful nation, given the chance. Many of us had great hopes for China. Sadly, the authoritarians have won out. Maybe that will change. Who saw the collapse of the Soviet Union coming? As an aside, one of the most influential Christians in my life was Watchman Nee, known in China as Nee T'o-sheng. I wish I had met him, but I've read many of his books.

 

[Aussie Pete]

You don't get to define what is " real" science,
except to please yourself with an attempt maintaining, yes,
intellectual honesty. It's pellucid, fools nobody but yourself.

You are certainly anti science if you reject it as it actually
is in favour of a fantasy version that fits your beliefs.

Your anecdote with garbage like " too
horrible to contemplate" is of no value or relevance.

Science does not mandate ignorance and
intellectual dishonesty.
Fundamentalist Christianity does.


You didn't even vaguely approach an actual
response, far less an honest acceptance of obvious facts.

Observed facts about creationism that we've seen
repeated endlessly in these very pages. Incl. by you.

What is scientific about evolutionary theory? OOL research at least involves experimentation, even if it is pointless. I was taught science in school and the definition I stated was what I was taught. And please remind me what facts I have failed to accept.

 

[Astrid]

Rubbish. He challenged some of the leading lights in the scientific community to show where he was wrong. No one could. He debated "Professor Dave (who is not a professor) to a debate. The fake Professor could only slander the real professor because he had no arguments to make. You should check your facts. He does not only present to religious groups. He does not understand the evolutionary process beacuse there is no evolutionary process. As he says, there is no mechanism. And as I'm reminded by the atheists who frequent the chat, OOL and evolution are entirely separate subjects. Professor Tour's speciality is prebiotic chemistry. That is exactly what OOL is about.

The specific evidence against abiogenesis is pretty straightforward. 70 or so years of research have achieved nothing. And that in labs, not in some chemical soup.

Tell me, how can life itself, the life force, just arise by itself? When an organism dies, the components break down. Surely there are enough basic amino acids, carbohydrates, proteins and lipids etc. to self assemble into a cell? Yet they do not, in spite of an abundance, if the organism is of any size.

" there is no evolutionary process...no mechanism"

And do you believevthat is a fact?

Is that ignorance, or intellectual dishonesty?

A statement mandated by religion?

Some vastly egotistical belief about knowing more
than any researcher on earth?


All the above?

 

[Astrid]

You have my respect for standing up to the CCP. That takes courage.

Many Christians are in China's prisons for refusing to back down on their Christian beliefs. It is a matter of choosing which battles to fight. For example, the speed limits on the roads here are silly. They are way too low on the main roads. I obey them because it's not worth fighting over and because God requires obedience to the civil authorities. That is, until those laws clash with God's will. Then I must obey God and not man, whatever it costs me.

I get in trouble with some of my American friends. I believe 1776 was a big mistake. The civil war was a consequence. America could have gained independence without violence. As you can imagine, not many Americans agree with me.

The Western world has certainly lost its way. Truth is anything that someone wants to believe. That's a recipe for disaster. Too many doubt that man landed on the moon and they believe that the earth is flat. What is worse, no amount of evidence can change their minds. I'm 72, so I probably won't see the coming strife that will afflict the world. What troubles me most is that these same people will be in the public service or be elected to government soon.

I travelled SE Asia a lot in the 1970's, including A few days in Hong Kong. I was impressed by the Chinese I met. Hard workers, smart, excellent negotiators. I could see that China would become a powerful nation, given the chance. Many of us had great hopes for China. Sadly, the authoritarians have won out. Maybe that will change. Who saw the collapse of the Soviet Union coming? As an aside, one of the most influential Christians in my life was Watchman Nee, known in China as Nee T'o-sheng. I wish I had met him, but I've read many of his books.

I've no interest in defending Christianity
as such.

I trust you understand its an alien incursion
into Chinese culture.
We've our own values which are often the same
as Christian, and often superior.

And that China has suffered through endless
Civil wars and invasions.
The experience with imperialist Westerners,
their guns, drugs, bibles, does not sit well.

You know that too. We've become strong,
enjoyed peace and prosperity...under the ccp.

Ccp intrusion into Hong Kong ways is what I
got beaten for protesting.

But understand, we like stability,and welcome no
alien - ism that are any threat to order.

Falun gong, say.

 

[Bradskii]

Rubbish. He challenged some of the leading lights in the scientific community to show where he was wrong.

This shows how much you've actually investigated the guy. He doesn't propose anything at all for anyone to show that he's wrong. You can prove me incorrect by showing me any science that he has put forward as an alternative to any current proposals. Anything at all.

But here's a spoiler alert. You won't find a thing. Because he hasn't got anything to put forward. And we both know why. Because "No apparent or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology can be valid if it contradicts scripture".

But feel free to waste your time looking. I'll be here waiting.

 

[Divide]

You are certainly anti science if you reject it as it actually
is in favour of a fantasy version that fits your beliefs.

That's not right. You are building this up in your mind to be that way. So God said in scripture that He will use the foolishness of the world to confound the wise. So it may seem like a fantasy to you, but to us Christians it is the power of God.

I can't tell you why God chooses to do things in very bizzare twilight zone ways. But it's no fantasy. Would you like to hear some personal testimonies that I have that back me up?

Ask any scientist, are there things which happen that you can not explain? Any honest scientist will say yes, many things.

 

[Bradskii]

Ask any scientist, are there things which happen that you can not explain? Any honest scientist will say yes, many things.

And guess what people like Tour do to fill in any gaps in our knowledge?

 

[Divide]

I've no interest in defending Christianity
as such.

I trust you understand its an alien incursion
into Chinese culture.
We've our own values which are often the same
as Christian, and often superior.

And that China has suffered through endless
Civil wars and invasions.
The experience with imperialist Westerners,
their guns, drugs, bibles, does not sit well.

You know that too. We've become strong,
enjoyed peace and prosperity...under the ccp.

Ccp intrusion into Hong Kong ways is what I
got beaten for protesting.

But understand, we like stability,and welcome no
alien - ism that are any threat to order.

Falun gong, say.

I knew an American guy that always practiced Thai Chi on our job sites while working. You sound very harsh towards our people. I can understand you would not want your neighbrohood overrun with stupid Americans. Your culture would seem very foreign to us also. But I could not say that we are superior to you because tha would be stupid and untrue and make me look like an idiot for saying it.

We are not inferior to the chinese either. Yes we do have many stupid people, and imperialists, and people that would stab you in the back for $10. But we also have other people who would open their hearts to you and be your equal as friends. Some people can love others. I think it's catching on!

The Chinese are not superior. That is a delusion. The Brits are not superior. Or the Mexicans. We are all Human Beings and on a level playing field as Brothers and Sisters. You should not close your heart to the people of the earth. There is no need to be hostile towards our people. All of that bitterness that you hold inside towards Americans will become a bitter root in your heart that would never let you learn to love if you let it remain. Every culture has both good people and bad people. You have very much pride and that may not be a good thing for you?

 

[Divide]

And guess what people like Tour do to fill in any gaps in our knowledge?

I've never read anything from Tour. I've never heard of him.

But what did he do to fill in the gaps?