Is believing/faith a work ?

[John Mullally]

The "all people" is to mean that no group or class or nation is categorically excluded. Categorical inclusion or exclusion was how people always thought back then. There was no concept of universal human equality.

If that is the case, all the translators to english who are more expert got it wrong as it should have been translated as something like "all kinds of people".

But let's assume that all the translators got it wrong, and both instances of "all people" in Romans 5:18 would be better translated as "all types of people" as they use the same greek phrases - and now you are left with Adam's transgression only affecting all types of people.

​

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.​

 

[John Mullally]

The "gift" of salvation isn't like a gift as our culture normally thinks of a gift. We think of giving or receiving a gift as unconditional - however, the gift of salvation is conditional (James 2:24, 1Cor 6:11). Salvation is nevertheless a gift, in the sense that it's undeserved and cannot possibly be gained through our own efforts.

A grossly inadequate analogy would be, someone is bequeathed $1billion dollars in a will by a late rich relative, but in order to get access to the money, the beneficiary must first wash dishes in a soup kitchen for a week. No one deserves $1billion dollars for washing dishes in a soup kitchen for a week, and no one can possibly earn $1billion dollars that way, so although getting access to the money is conditional, it can most certainly be considered a gift.

A better analogy can be found in 2Kings 5, where Naaman goes to see the prophet Elisha in the hope of being cured of leprosy. Elisha told Naaman that in order to be cured, he must first wash himself seven times in the Jordan river. Normally, no one can be, or deserves to be, cured of leprosy by washing themselves seven times in the Jordan river, but that was the condition set by God (thru Elisha) in order for Naaman to receive the gift of being cured of leprosy.

James 1:6-8 indicates that faith is required to receive anything from the Lord in prayer.

James 1: 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.​

We see Jesus commending faith and even saying things like you faith has made you whole and your faith has saved you. Jesus could do no mighty miracles in his hometown due to the people's unbelief (Mark 6:1-6 and Matthew 13:54-58).

Mark 6:5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them.​

Matthew 13:58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.​

There are many conditional NT promises tied to our belief or humble actions resulting from our belief (like repent, confession of faith, and baptism).

 

[biblelesson]

We are MADE Righteous. We are not righteous. We can do nothing to be righteous. No law keeping can make us righteous.

Peter 1:14-17 instructs believers to be "holy [ie, righteous] yourselves in all your conduct" and to "conduct yourselves with fear", because God will judge "each one impartially according to his deeds" on Judgement Day. In other words, our righteous deeds having a bearing on our salvation. Please explain.

"As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile." (1Peter 1:14-17)

Here is a preliminary comment:
First remember the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, Romans 1:16 KJV

Remember, Paul was a chosen vessel to bare the name of Christ, for the gentiles and the children of Israel, Acts 9:15 KJV, therefore the gospel is in fact all of Paul’s epistles and the epistles by the other Apostle and disciples, thus the gospel of Christ, Romans 1:16 KJV.

So, within all of the epistles, there is power. That is, in the framework of the gospel, God’s power operates in the lives of those who live by the gospel. So in order to receiver the power of the gospel for the transformation of our lives, we must operate in belief, thereby exercising faith, Romans 1:17 KJV.

Through the operation of the gospel, by the Spirit, the power of God operates in the believer’s life to grow the believer up into (to be conformed) the image of God’s Son, that Christ might be the firstborn (have the preeminence) of many brothers, Romans 8:29 KJV.

What God is doing through the power of the gospel, by His Spirit, is bringing His children home through Christ.

So, to answer your the question:
You quoted 1 Peter 1:14-17 KJV.
As obedient children is saying obedient to the gospel teachings. We can’t possibly know how the Spirit will do the work in us. All we know is God’s power will be operating in us and we will see the manifestation of holiness being wrought (molded, shaped) in us, 2 Corinthians 12:12 KJV.

It hard for us to always see that it’s God working in us, by His Spirit through the power of the gospel to bring us to His Holiness - we continue to default back to the law. But, it is God who wills and do His good pleasure in us, Philippians 2:13 KJV.

So a believer’s former lust has no power to cause the believer to sin.Because God, by offering salvation by grace, which is His free gift to us, not requiring we do anything, He removed us out of the way - He removed our carnal sinful nature by crucifying it on the cross with Christ rendering it dead, Colossians 3:3 KJV.

Therefore to walk in power, holiness, and to walk without the sinful flesh, the gospel tells us what to do. We are instructed to put off the old man, Ephesians 4:22 KJV. The relating scripture to putting off the old man is
Romans 6:11 KJV
“Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

To put off them old man, who has been crucified, we reckon it so. Reckon means: To regard as. To esteem something to be true. To believe.

So we exercise the faith of the gospel, 2 Corinthians 5:7 KJV, Romans 3:27 KJV, Ephesians 2:8 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:5 KJV, etc., and we reckon the truth of what God did in Christ - believe we no longer live, that we have been crucified on the cross with Christ, that we have been raised with Christ.

We are instructed to put on the new man, Ephesians 4:24 KJV, which the relating scripture is
Romans 13:14 KJV
“But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.”

By putting off the old man, we allow the work of the Holy Spirit to operate in us so to have victory over sin.

The deeds of the believer as he/she follow the gospel are transformed by the Spirit through the faith the believer exercises - the believer is transformed into holiness, whereby the Fruit of the Spirit by the power of the Holy Spirit is manifested in us. God working in us causes us to walk in His power unto salvation.

I plan to respond to the rest.

God bless!

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes the many in Romans 5:19 are same "all people" in Romans 5:18 and we all know what "all people" means. Thus Christ's righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. But we both don't agree that all people are justified. So how do we get around that impasse?

Your offered solution (which is common to Calvinists) is to say that the benefit for Christ's righteous act was only made for some people - a mysterious elect whom only God knows. But the problem there is that all the english translations of Romans 5:18 say Christ's act is for "all people", "all men", "everyone" or "all mankind". There are other scriptures that say that Christ atoned for all people (such as 1 Timothy 2:6 and the two verses @Buzzard3 mentioned in Post 1174).

My offered solution (which is common to non-Calvinist Christians) is to say that the benefit (justification) is offered to all people, but only received by faith by some as I explained in the last paragraph of Post 1170. I admit that Romans 5:18-19 puts no conditions upon the receipt pf justification - so that is why I introduced John 3:14-15 to show that from other scriptures justification is received conditionally - it is received by believing on Jesus.

The people who arent Justified/made righteous are the ones Jesus didnt die for, thats simple reason.

 

[Brightfame52]

@John Mullally

Not all people are justified even though Christ made atonement for all people. The atonement (and its benefit of justification) is received conditionally as I explained in the last paragraph of Post 1170.

There are many conditional promises in God's word. In general, these conditions are expressed in such a way that they can be met by those who desire to meet them - although humility and sacrifices are generally necessary.

See you introduce conditions, thats works, thats what this thread is all about.

 

[Dan2255]

Is believing/ faith a work seems to be the question. The answer is yes but whose work is it? Ours or God who works through us by his Holy Spirit. Believing in God is not faith at all but the works he performs in us is. You see the devil believe in God but have no works within them. As the apostle wrote faith without works is dead. He said show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith with works. God puts his Holy spiritual within us so we walk in his ways. He puts his love his trust in our hearts that we to can love as he loves. If a man says he loves God a hates his neighbor is a liar the love of God is not in him nor the trust he gives us or any other fruit the Holy Spirit produces in us to bring forth works.

 

[John Mullally]

See you introduce conditions, thats works, thats what this thread is all about.

Galatians 3:2: “Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?”

Obviously, we receive the Spirit by hearing with faith, and hence faith is our introduction to grace. However, from the Calvinistic perspective, any religion that teaches that salvation comes about by anything other than an “Irresistible Grace,” necessarily makes salvation into a works-based process, because (as it is reasoned) once you incorporate any act of the human will—what is left is some element of human contribution in the process. So, when Calvinists say that “salvation is of the Lord” (Jonah 2:9), what they really mean is that God does everything in salvation, including the act of faith, on behalf of the elect-person, by overcoming their resistance through an irresistible gift of pre-faith regeneration. In other words, Calvinists believe that faith becomes a “work” whenever we come to think of faith as something that we do ourselves, absent of an Irresistible Grace. This means that in Calvinism, faith without Irresistible Grace = works.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of works and faith. Again, “works” speak of our own merit, while faith in someone else to save us, speaks of the merit of the one in whom we are placing our trust. So, when we place our faith in Christ, we are not adding to our own merits. We are not building up our own value. Faith in Christ, instead, points to someone else’s merits, who saves us solely by His choice to show grace toward anyone who puts their trust in Him.

 

[John Mullally]

The people who arent Justified/made righteous are the ones Jesus didnt die for, thats simple reason.

The reason why Jesus Christ is the only way to God, as per John 14:6, as it relates to the New Covenant, is the fact that there is no solution to human sin apart from the atoning death of Christ.

But how do you come up with Jesus didn't atone for everyone in contradiction to 1 John 2:1-2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 1 Timothy 4:10, and Romans 5:18? It is because Calvin taught that God decreed (AKA pre-planned or predestined) everything that would ever happen. In Calvinism, which is fatalistic, if God really wants something, then proof of what He wants is found in what He gets. If God really wants a certain thing, then He gets a certain thing. However, as a non-Calvinist, I believe that Jesus sincerely desires everyone come to know Him (1 Timothy 2:4), but just because I don’t believe that He forces His love on to everyone, doesn’t mean that I question His sincerity. I believe that God wants everyone to be saved freely. Nevertheless, Calvinists assume their own premise, as a fact, in order to reach a Calvinistic conclusion. In order to avoid Circular Logic, Calvinists should first attempt to prove that God always gets what He wants, rather than just assuming it. Non-Calvinists argue from Ezekiel 18:23 and Matthew 6:10 that God Himself testifies that His will is not presently being done on earth, as it is in Heaven, though one day it will.

 

[Buzzard3]

@John Mullally



See you introduce conditions, thats works, thats what this thread is all about.

Try reading your Bible sometime.

 

[biblelesson]

If Jesus makes us righteous, why must we do works by keeping his commandments? (John 14:15)

John 14:15 KJV is referring to the Mosiac law under the Old Testament, which involves works, which ended as a requirement when Jesus died on the cross and brought in the New Testament. Therefore our keeping the commandments of Christ under the New Testament is no longer through the works involved under the Mosiac law, but is by way of the Holy Spirit putting the laws in our heart, Hebrews 10:16 KJV, and Christ living in us, Galatians 2:20 KJV.

To explain further, Christ is the fullness of the law - He was made of the law to redeem those under the law, Galatians 4:4-5 KJV, and to gives us His righteousness. It is the body and blood of Christ that replaces our unrighteousness with His righteousness through faith. The just for the unjust, 1 Peter 3:18 KJV.

 

[biblelesson]

Paul warns believers in Gal 5:19-21 and 1Cor 6:9-11 that their sins can result in them ending up in hell. Please explain.

In Romans 13:8-10, Paul tells believers that loving your neighbour is "the fulfilling of the law." That means Christians are under law, which is fulfilled by doing righteous works. Please explain.

Yes, Paul warned the Galatians about the works of the flesh. Paul was warning the Galatians about allowing the Jews to convince them to do the works under the Mosiac law, Galatians 3:1-5 KJV, which is the work of the flesh, and leads to death because the flesh can only produce sin: “Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like,” Galatians 5;29- 21 KJV. Galatians 5:4 KJV.

Under the New Testament, in Christ Jesus, the fulfillment of the law, is without the deeds of the law, but it’s fulfillment is love, Romans 3:10 KJV

 

[Buzzard3]

John 14:15 KJV is referring to the Mosiac law under the Old Testament

No, John 14:15 isn't referring to the 613 laws of Moses. For starters, Jesus never referred to those laws as "my commandments", but as "the Law" or "the commandments".

By "my commandments" in John 14:15, Jesus is referring all the commandments he taught the apostles that will apply under the coming new covenant, including the "new commandment" he gave them in John 13:34-35 ...
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”


It's obvious from the verses that follow John 14:15 that what Jesus meant by "my commandments" is not the 613 laws of Moses, but the future commandments under the new covenant - ie, after his death and resurrection:

"And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

“I will not leave you desolate; I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world will see me no more, but you will see me; because I live, you will live also. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” (John 14:16-21)


The commandments of the new covenant include the moral laws of Moses, such as loving your neighbour and the Ten Commandments, as is obvious from Romans 13:8-10 ... and notice that Christians are under "law", which means works:

"Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled THE LAW. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of THE LAW."

 

[Buzzard3]

Therefore our keeping the commandments of Christ under the New Testament is no longer through the works involved under the Mosiac law

The death and resurrection of Jesus did away with the ceremonial/ritual laws of Moses, such as circumcision, dietary laws and the feast days. However, the moral laws of Moses remain for Christians, such as loving your neighbour (which comes from Leviticus 19) and the Ten Commandments.

Do you suppose the Ten Commandments no longer apply to Christians, so that Christians are free to murder, commit adultery, lie and steal?

Do you suppose Christians are free to engage in homosexual acts or have sex with animals, which the law of Moses prohibited?

but is by way of the Holy Spirit putting the laws in our heart, Hebrews 10:16 KJV, and Christ living in us, Galatians 2:20 KJV.

Tell me, what are the laws the Holy Spirit has put in your "heart"? Please list them.

Does the Holy Spirit or Christ prevent you from sinning against those laws?

To explain further, Christ is the fullness of the law - He was made of the law to redeem those under the law, Galatians 4:4-5 KJV, and to gives us His righteousness. It is the body and blood of Christ that replaces our unrighteousness with His righteousness through faith. The just for the unjust, 1 Peter 3:18 KJV.

In that case, why does 1John 2:3-6 say a believer who disobeys God’s commandments is "a liar, and the truth is not in him"?

Why does 2Cor 5:10 say believers will be judged according to their deeds/works?

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

 

[Buzzard3]

Yes, Paul warned the Galatians about the works of the flesh. Paul was warning the Galatians about allowing the Jews to convince them to do the works under the Mosiac law, Galatians 3:1-5 KJV, which is the work of the flesh

Forget about Mosaic Law - Paul is telling CHRISTIANS that commiting the works of the flesh he mentions in Gal 5 can prevent them inheriting "the Kingdom of God".

Has the penny dropped yet? Christians who commit serious sin risk ending up in hell.

Under the New Testament, in Christ Jesus, the fulfillment of the law, is without the deeds of the law, but it’s fulfillment is love, Romans 3:10 KJV

Guess what? "love" is WORKS. Obeying God's commandments to love one another is WORKS.

James 2:24 says "a man is justified by WORKS and NOT BY FAITH ALONE". By "WORKS" he means obeying God.

 

[biblelesson]

Really? The verse before that says the very opposite: "Thou meetest him that joyfully works righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways." (Isaiah 64:5)

You seem to have quoted Isaiah 64:4 completely out of context - that verse refers to deeds of righteous done by the Israelites who have rebelled against God and have forgotten him:

"But they rebelled
and grieved his holy Spirit" (Isaiah 63:10)
"There is no one that calls upon thy name" (Isaiah 64:7).

Furthermore, God gave Moses the Law, which contains literally hundreds of commandments ttodo righteous deeds - why would God command his people to be righteous if "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags"?

Because Israel rebelled Christ came: due to Israel’s disobedience, the gentiles can be saved, Romans 11:11 KJV.

The verse clearly says due to Israel’s fall. The fall of Israel resulted in their being a curse over the law. Anyone who tries to keep it will suffer that curse - eternal death. The curse is only removed in Christ.

Because there is no one recognized outside of Israel - Israel represents the world - you, me, and everybody.

You have to study the gospel. Get a good understanding of the gospel of Christ and stop reading the Old Testament for now. 2 Corinthians 3:14 KJV describes you!

 

[biblelesson]

Forget about Mosaic Law - Paul is telling CHRISTIANS that commiting the works of the flesh he mentions in Gal 5 can prevent them inheriting "the Kingdom of God".

The works of the flesh is the law. Any works of the flesh falls under the Mosiac law. There is no sin outside the law of Mosis. That’s why we must accept Christ, who redeemed us from the curse of the law - that’s all sin. Galatians 5 is directly related to Galatians 3. My goodness!

You really need to understand scripture before you zealously oppose scriptural truth, without knowledge.

 

[Buzzard3]

The works of the flesh is the law. Any works of the flesh falls under the Mosiac law.

I will attempt to lead you out of your obvious confusion ...

After explaining to the Galatians that they're not obliged to keep the ritual laws of Moses (such as circumcision), Paul says this:

"For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh" (Gal 5:13).

By "freedom", Paul at least means freedom from the ritual laws of Moses that the Judaisers were attempting to force on them (Gal 1:6-7, 5:1-7). Then Paul warns them that freedom from those Mosaic laws doesn't mean they're free to sin, which he calls "an opportunity for the flesh", and later, the "desires of the flesh" (v.16) and the "works of the flesh" (v.19).

By using the terms, "opportunity for the flesh" and "desires of the flesh" and "the works of the flesh", Paul isn't referring to Mosaic law - he's referring to the sinful nature of all human beings.

So Paul has changed the subject from Mosaic law to the problem of sin, which he tells the Galatians can result in the them not inheriting "the kingdom of God". In other words, Paul's telling them that salvation doesn't depend on faith alone, but on obeying the commandments of God (works) as well ... which agrees with James 2:24 - "a man is justified by WORKS and NOT BY FAITH ALONE" (James 2 24).

Get salvation by faith alone out of your head - it's a false doctrine.

There is no sin outside the law of Moses.

Yes there is ... that's precisely what Paul is telling the Galations in chapter 5 ... "works of the flesh" is sin outside the law of Moses!
Human beings are sinful.

 

[Buzzard3]

2 Corinthians 3:14 KJV describes you!

You really need to understand scripture before you zealously oppose scriptural truth, without knowledge.

I appreciate your sense of humour ... thanks

 

[Buzzard3]

Because Israel rebelled Christ came

I didn't know that. I thought Christ came to save all mankind from the consequences of sin ...

 

[biblelesson]

I will attempt to lead you out of your obvious confusion ...

After explaining to the Galatians that they're not obliged to keep the ritual laws of Moses (such as circumcision), Paul says this:

"For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh" (Gal 5:13).

By "freedom", Paul at least means freedom from the ritual laws of Moses that the Judaisers were attempting to force on them (Gal 1:6-7, 5:1-7). Then Paul warns them that freedom from those Mosaic laws doesn't mean they're free to sin, which he calls "an opportunity for the flesh", and later, the "desires of the flesh" (v.16) and the "works of the flesh" (v.19).

By using the terms, "opportunity for the flesh" and "desires of the flesh" and "the works of the flesh", Paul isn't referring to Mosaic law - he's referring to the sinful nature of all human beings.

So Paul has changed the subject from Mosaic law to the problem of sin, which he tells the Galatians can result in the them not inheriting "the kingdom of God". In other words, Paul's telling them that salvation doesn't depend on faith alone, but on obeying the commandments of God (works) as well ... which agrees with James 2:24 - "a man is justified by WORKS and NOT BY FAITH ALONE" (James 2 24).

Get salvation by faith alone out of your head - it's a false doctrine.

Yes there is ... that's precisely what Paul is telling the Galations in chapter 5 ... "works of the flesh" is sin outside the law of Moses!
Human beings are sinful.

Romans 8:1-7 KJV
1 “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, [works of the flesh], but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death [Mosiac Law].
3 For what the law [Mosiac Law] could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law [Mosiac Law] might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, [works of the flesh], but after the Spirit.
5 For” they that are after the flesh [works of the flesh] do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded [the Adamic nature that produce the works of the flesh] is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind [Adamic Nature] is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, [Mosiac Law], neither indeed can be.

The sinful nature all human beings have is the result of the Adamic nature inherited from Adam. It is that sinful nature Paul is saying is not subject to the law [Mosiac Law], and which causes sin: works of the flesh; desires of the flesh; all manner of sins.

All sin is governed by the Mosiac law, to include the works of the flesh.