The Pro Palestinian protests and news thread

[Nithavela]

Being better than Hamas is a low bar. The Jewish human rights group which I referred to originally stated there were many cases which went unpunished.

As long as they are better than Hamas, I don't see the problem of the IDF dunking on Hamas.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

So it's ok to put a West Bank's Palestinian child's life at risk but not one who lives in Israel.

I'm saying it's different. It's on a different level. War is hell. It is best to be avoided. But I'm not talking about children. I'm talking about adults: People past puberty.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

That would still be a war crime.

I say would because I really doubt the veracity of these stories without any evidence.

Yep. But I have to admit I'm not all that sure everyone agrees on where to draw the line between "war crime" and just "war as usual". In every war, all sides slaughtered non-combatants such as soldiers who had surrendered.

War is hell. It's a thing best avoided. But when you are attacked...

 

[Vanellus]

As long as they are better than Hamas, I don't see the problem of the IDF dunking on Hamas.

Hamas don't control the West Bank where many of these abuses take place. And there is the little matter of international (and national) law.

 

[Vanellus]

I'm saying it's different. It's on a different level. War is hell. It is best to be avoided. But I'm not talking about children. I'm talking about adults: People past puberty.

An inhumane and cruel view in my opinion. Actually I think adult lives matter as well. As was asked in the Florida legislature how many Palestinians need to die? Is your answer "all of them" like the Republican Michelle Salzman?

Outrage grows after ‘chilling call for genocide’ by Florida Republican

Outrage continues to grow over a public comment made by a Florida state Republican lawmaker calling for all Palestinians to die.

The remarks came during a debate in the state legislature about calling for a ceasefire in Israel’s invasion of Gaza, which has so far killed more than 10,000 Palestinians, many of whom are children. The assault came after Hamas fighters attacked Israel from Gaza, killing at least 1,400 people and taking more than 200 hostage

Israel has since reduced the figure to 1200.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Hamas don't control the West Bank where many of these abuses take place. And there is the little matter of international (and national) law.

Here is my problem with "international law" via an analogy based on california law:

A man has entered a woman's apartment, brutally beats and rapes her and leaves her on the floor for dead. As he's walking out the door, she reaches under her couch for her Glock 17 and aims it at him. According to California law, she breaks the law if she shoots him since he is no longer a threat. According to common sense and natural "law", she empties the gun into his back and, hopefully, a few bullets find his head.

Too often, international law is more like California law. I don't think Israel wants to live with the risk that the guy may come back.

 

[essentialsaltes]

This thread actually has a topic.

Jewish activists rallying for Gaza cease-fire shut down Hollywood intersection​

Jewish activist groups organized a rally that shut down the intersection of Hollywood Boulevard and Highland Avenue on Wednesday, a move of civil disobedience as they advocated for a cease-fire in Gaza.

The rally was co-organized by the groups IfNotNow and Jewish Voice for Peace, both of which are urging a ceasefire in Gaza. Participants at the event were holding signs reading, “Jews say no to genocide,” and chanting, “Rain or shine, Free Palestine!” amid Wednesday’s rainstorm.

By 7:50 p.m., the protesters had cleared the intersection, and traffic had resumed. No arrests were made as a result of the event.

[article notes a simultaneous protest in DC involving some of the same groups that did not run as smoothly, though there is plenty of finger pointing at this time.]

Top House Democrats evacuated from DNC headquarters as police clash with protesters calling for Gaza ceasefire​

Law enforcement clashed with protesters calling for a ceasefire in the Israel-Hamas war outside of the Washington headquarters of the Democratic National Committee Wednesday night after authorities said the demonstration turned violent and lawmakers were evacuated from the building.

“Tonight 6 officers were treated for injuries – ranging from minor cuts to being pepper sprayed to being punched. One person has been arrested for assault on an officer. We appreciate our officers who kept these illegal & violent protesters back & protected everyone in the area,” US Capitol Police, who responded with DC Metropolitan Police, said in a statement on X.

Officers, according to USCP, had worked “to keep back approximately 150 people who are illegally and violently protesting” in the area – a characterization activist groups later disputed

Beth Miller, political director of Jewish Voice for Peace Action, said in a statement Wednesday night that “hundreds of peaceful anti-war activists came to the DNC to call for an end to bombs and violence in order to save Palestinian and Israeli lives.”

“They were met with brutal assaults by the police,” Miller continued. “The Democrats need to decide: will they stand on the side of peace and justice, or will they continue to support war and genocide?”

 

[Vanellus]

Here is my problem with "international law" via an analogy based on california law:

A man has entered a woman's apartment, brutally beats and rapes her and leaves her on the floor for dead. As he's walking out the door, she reaches under her couch for her Glock 17 and aims it at him. According to California law, she breaks the law if she shoots him since he is no longer a threat. According to common sense and natural "law", she empties the gun into his back and, hopefully, a few bullets find his head.

Too often, international law is more like California law. I don't think Israel wants to live with the risk that the guy may come back.

A wholly irrelevant analogy. Most of the people killed in Gaza were not involved in the October 7 attack. In a democracy you don't get to pick and choose which laws apply to you.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

An inhumane and cruel view in my opinion. Actually I think adult lives matter as well. As was asked in the Florida legislature how many Palestinians need to die? Is your answer "all of them" like the Republican Michelle Salzman?

Outrage grows after ‘chilling call for genocide’ by Florida Republican


Israel has since reduced the figure to 1200.

No, my answer is not "all of them". OTOH, if they have an attitude that they will fight to the last man and actually carry it out, then the answer would be "all of them". Frankly, that is one reason we dropped the two bombs. To let them know that if that was really their attitude, then that is what would happen.

War is hell. I'm not shocked by what happens in war, via either side. And I think the whole concept of "war crimes" is kinda, well, dumb. Each side can do whatever they want to win, knowing that if they lose, the world may be a harsh judge. I don't believe there is such a thing as a "humane" war. Once the shooting and stabbing starts, "humane" has been thrown out the window. Remember, God told Israel to wipe out entire nations, women and children and even cattle. I guess God violated modern "international law".

 

[DaisyDay]

Yep. That's why the world's Anti-Semites were really hoping Israel killed 500 people in that hospital.

Hamas is a unique beast. They count on this to protect themselves:
View attachment 339320

That's years old. You can now find the same picture with "Hamas" on the left. But really, this is all an "Islam" problem. After all, there is really no such thing as a Palestinian, other than as a label for where a person might live. Kinda like being a Californian.

In what way is this a “ pro-Palestinian” thread?

 

[Vanellus]

No, my answer is not "all of them". OTOH, if they have an attitude that they will fight to the last man and actually carry it out, then the answer would be "all of them". Frankly, that is one reason we dropped the two bombs. To let them know that if that was really their attitude, then that is what would happen.

War is hell. I'm not shocked by what happens in war, via either side. And I think the whole concept of "war crimes" is kinda, well, dumb. Each side can do whatever they want to win, knowing that if they lose, the world may be a harsh judge. I don't believe there is such a thing as a "humane" war. Once the shooting and stabbing starts, "humane" has been thrown out the window. Remember, God told Israel to wipe out entire nations, women and children and even cattle. I guess God violated modern "international law".

The Nazis could use that argument to justify the Holocaust. Purify the race, get rid of the enemy within, make your country a better fighting force. All entirely wrong of course but as you say "war is hell" and some leaders can use the war is hell argument to justify anything. That's why we have the Geneva Conventions.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

In what way is this a “ pro-Palestinian” thread?

I don't believe it is. I'm seeing both sides represented here.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

The Nazis could use that argument to justify the Holocaust. Purify the race, get rid of the enemy within, make your country a better fighting force. All entirely wrong of course but as you say "war is hell" and some leaders can use the war is hell argument to justify anything. That's why we have the Geneva Conventions.

Yep. And what if they'd won? How would the war be reported. I actually read an "alternate history" book called "The Fatherland" that takes place in the1960's. It's a detective novel set in a world where the Nazis defeated europe. The big discovery in the book? The Nazi's killed millions of Jews.

Meanwhile, in the real world, a decade or so later than the 1960's we found out that the USSR almost certainly killed a lot more Jews than Hitler did. Yet nobody really talks about it.

But The USSR was on the winning side so it just stayed in "rumor" mode for decades.

Further, though the world condemns the Nazis for what they did to the Jews, the same sort of attitude is happening all over the world right now. And just like then, these anti-Semites feel "justified" in their complaints against the Jews.

So, what would Israel be able to do to appease all the antisemitism? Thomas Sowell explains it:

 

[Vanellus]

Yep. And what if they'd won? How would the war be reported. I actually read an "alternate history" book called "The Fatherland" that takes place in the1960's. It's a detective novel set in a world where the Nazis defeated europe. The big discovery in the book? The Nazi's killed millions of Jews.

Meanwhile, in the real world, a decade or so later than the 1960's we found out that the USSR almost certainly killed a lot more Jews than Hitler did. Yet nobody really talks about it.

But The USSR was on the winning side so it just stayed in "rumor" mode for decades.

Further, though the world condemns the Nazis for what they did to the Jews, the same sort of attitude is happening all over the world right now. And just like then, these anti-Semites feel "justified" in their complaints against the Jews.

So, what would Israel be able to do to appease all the antisemitism? Thomas Sowell explains it:

Yes but Stalin wasn't particularly fussy - he had a special liking for Ukraine which was depicted well in the film Mr Jones about the mass starvation - but hey it was all part of making the USSR more efficient. This Welsh journalist publicised his findings in the 1930s.


Robert Harris book?

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Yes but Stalin wasn't particularly fussy - he had a special liking for Ukraine which was depicted well in the film Mr Jones about the mass starvation - but hey it was all part of making the USSR more efficient


Robert Harris book?

They both liked "the" Ukraine. That's why Hitler called it Germany's Lebensraum - Living Space.

In fact, Germans were originally getting a sort of "hero's welcome" when they fist took it. The people thought they had been saved from Russia. Unfortunately, that bonehead rounded up the Jews and did what he does. The eastern front could have gone very differently. But I think I'm getting a bit off topic...

 

[Pommer]

They both liked "the" Ukraine. That's why Hitler called it Germany's Lebensraum - Living Space.

In fact, Germans were originally getting a sort of "hero's welcome" when they fist took it. The people thought they had been saved from Russia. Unfortunately, that bonehead rounded up the Jews and did what he does. The eastern front could have gone very differently. But I think I'm getting a bit off topic...

Ruminating how the Third Reich could’ve prosecuted their war better is an odd look, js.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Ruminating how the Third Reich could’ve prosecuted their war better is an odd look, js.

You missed my point. I was actually hinting at the fact that Hitler was not the military genius everyone thought he was. Calling someone's actions stupid doesn't mean I wish they had been successful. He also blew it at Dunkirk. That was a good thing.

This sort of "ruminating" is very common in books about the Third Reich. Books that treated him as the monster he was.

 

[Pommer]

You missed my point. I was actually hinting at the fact that Hitler was not the military genius everyone thought he was. Calling someone's actions stupid doesn't mean I wish they had been successful. He also blew it at Dunkirk. That was a good thing.

This sort of "ruminating" is very common in books about the Third Reich. Books that treated him as the monster he was.

They* said that the Kaiser was something of a megalomaniac, same with Hitler, the 21st century also seems to have its German (descended) megalomaniac.

*historians

 

[Reasonably Sane]

They* said that the Kaiser was something of a megalomaniac, same with Hitler, the 21st century also seems to have its German (descended) megalomaniac.

*historians

I'd say we're in an age of Megalomaniacs.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Bay Bridge blocked off by pro-Palestinian protesters during APEC summit, Biden visit​

About 250 pro-Palestinian protesters blocked off traffic on the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge for hours Thursday, with some people chaining themselves together across lanes and shutting down a vital Bay Area route during the busy morning commute.

In a post in the social media platform X, the San Francisco Sheriff’s Office said about 80 demonstrators were cited and released by its office and the San Francisco Police Department and CHP.