The Pro Palestinian protests and news thread

[Aussie Pete]

if his expertise isn’t in religious studies (he is/was a physics professor), it’s appeal to authroity.

People can be well versed in more than one subject. I know that does not fit with modern understanding. A specialist, to me, is one who knows more and more about less and less until he knows everything about nothing.

 

[essentialsaltes]

London police detain scores of people trying to reach pro-Palestinian demonstrators​

About 2,000 London Metropolitan Police officers were on the streets of the British capital amid concerns over potential clashes between the march and far-right counterprotesters on what was a day of Remembrance Day services to honor Britain’s war dead.
The London police, who have wide powers to detain and disperse people, said on social media that they arrested 82 counterprotesters who were trying to reach the pro-Palestinian march.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

London police detain scores of people trying to reach pro-Palestinian demonstrators​

About 2,000 London Metropolitan Police officers were on the streets of the British capital amid concerns over potential clashes between the march and far-right counterprotesters on what was a day of Remembrance Day services to honor Britain’s war dead.
The London police, who have wide powers to detain and disperse people, said on social media that they arrested 82 counterprotesters who were trying to reach the pro-Palestinian march.

Looks like this is gonna get ugly before it's over. The US may not be perfect, but the Constitution and Bill of Rights are still relatively intact. I'm glad I'm here.

That article used the "far right" label a lot. I'd like to know what their definition of "far right" is, exactly. I don't think people who shout “You let your country down” and “England till I die.” are necessarily far right. They sound more like patriots. A lot of them saved their country in the skies over England in 1940.

 

[essentialsaltes]

That article used the "far right" label a lot. I'd like to know what their definition of "far right" is, exactly.

Other articles note the involvement of the English Defence League and other unnamed groups along with football hooligans (the Venn diagram may be close to a circle). That article also makes it clear the crowd was shouting "You let your country down” at the police preventing them from mixing up with the pro-Palestinian protest.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Other articles note the involvement of the English Defence League and other unnamed groups along with football hooligans (the Venn diagram may be close to a circle). That article also makes it clear the crowd was shouting "You let your country down” at the police preventing them from mixing up with the pro-Palestinian protest.

Well, I wish them luck in England. This is just getting started. I hope they choose the right path.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Ex-Prime Minister David Cameron makes shock comeback as Britain’s foreign secretary​

Cameron, who led the government between 2010 and 2016, was appointed by Prime Minister Rishi Sunak in a Cabinet shuffle in which he sacked [Suella] Braverman, a divisive figure who drew anger for accusing police of being too lenient with pro-Palestinian protesters.

--

Braverman has been at the center of a political storm since she wrote an article for the Times of London, which was not approved by Downing Street, accusing the police of double standards and characterizing pro-Palestinian protests as “hate marches.”

Her intervention was highly unusual; as the home secretary, Braverman was in charge of overseeing Britain’s largest police force.

Braverman, who hails from the right wing of the Conservative Party, is no stranger to controversy and has made headlines for calling homelessness a “lifestyle choice” and for her enthusiastic backing of plans to send asylum seekers to Rwanda.

Over the weekend, far-right protesters clashed with police during a massive pro-Palestinian demonstration in London, prompting critics to say that her comments had inflamed tensions.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Jews demanding cease-fire in Gaza occupy Oakland federal building. Hundreds are arrested​

More than half of the estimated 700 protesters in attendance were arrested after refusing to leave the sit-in at the Ronald V. Dellums Federal Building and U.S. Courthouse as it dragged on into the evening, according to Hayle Meyerhoff, a spokesperson for IfNotNow, one of the Jewish groups that organized the rally.

“As Jews, we know that every life is sacred,” Meyerhoff said in a statement. “We have been horrified by the murders of Israelis on Oct. 7 and we continue to be horrified by murders of over 11,000 Palestinians in the past month.”

Many demonstrators at Monday’s sit-in wore shirts reading “Jews say cease fire now” and “Not in our name,” some holding signs reading “Let Gaza live,” while joining in song, chants and dance, photos and videos from the rally show.

IfNotNow describes itself as a group of American Jews dedicated to the end of “U.S. support for Israel’s apartheid system,” according to its website. Jewish Voice for Peace is a “progressive Jewish anti-Zionist” organization, its website says.

Meyerhoff said 450 people were arrested, with most issued criminal citations accusing them of failure to disperse. She called the sit-in California’s largest-ever protest of Jews in solidarity with Palestinians, as well as the Bay Area’s largest mass arrest event in recent years.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Jews demanding cease-fire in Gaza occupy Oakland federal building. Hundreds are arrested​

More than half of the estimated 700 protesters in attendance were arrested after refusing to leave the sit-in at the Ronald V. Dellums Federal Building and U.S. Courthouse as it dragged on into the evening, according to Hayle Meyerhoff, a spokesperson for IfNotNow, one of the Jewish groups that organized the rally.

“As Jews, we know that every life is sacred,” Meyerhoff said in a statement. “We have been horrified by the murders of Israelis on Oct. 7 and we continue to be horrified by murders of over 11,000 Palestinians in the past month.”

Many demonstrators at Monday’s sit-in wore shirts reading “Jews say cease fire now” and “Not in our name,” some holding signs reading “Let Gaza live,” while joining in song, chants and dance, photos and videos from the rally show.

IfNotNow describes itself as a group of American Jews dedicated to the end of “U.S. support for Israel’s apartheid system,” according to its website. Jewish Voice for Peace is a “progressive Jewish anti-Zionist” organization, its website says.

Meyerhoff said 450 people were arrested, with most issued criminal citations accusing them of failure to disperse. She called the sit-in California’s largest-ever protest of Jews in solidarity with Palestinians, as well as the Bay Area’s largest mass arrest event in recent years.

War is hell. It's best to be avoided, but if you find yourself embroiled in one, it's best to win it. And it means you're gonna have to kill some people. It doesn't mean you have to like it, but if you want to win - especially against barbarians - it's a necessary evil.

 

[essentialsaltes]

And it means you're gonna have to kill some people.

Nobody thinks otherwise. But there are still internationally recognized obligations regarding the due diligence and circumstances for avoiding non-combatant casualties.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Nobody thinks otherwise. But there are still internationally recognized obligations regarding the due diligence and circumstances for avoiding non-combatant casualties.

Yep. That's why the world's Anti-Semites were really hoping Israel killed 500 people in that hospital.

Hamas is a unique beast. They count on this to protect themselves:

That's years old. You can now find the same picture with "Hamas" on the left. But really, this is all an "Islam" problem. After all, there is really no such thing as a Palestinian, other than as a label for where a person might live. Kinda like being a Californian.

 

[Vanellus]

Looks like this is gonna get ugly before it's over. The US may not be perfect, but the Constitution and Bill of Rights are still relatively intact. I'm glad I'm here.

That article used the "far right" label a lot. I'd like to know what their definition of "far right" is, exactly. I don't think people who shout “You let your country down” and “England till I die.” are necessarily far right. They sound more like patriots. A lot of them saved their country in the skies over England in 1940.

You can see the behaviour of those you are calling "patriots" here starting around 4:20. Note especially their behaviour at a London railway station starting at 5:00.

 

[Vanellus]

Yep. That's why the world's Anti-Semites were really hoping Israel killed 500 people in that hospital.

Hamas is a unique beast. They count on this to protect themselves:
View attachment 339320

That's years old. You can now find the same picture with "Hamas" on the left. But really, this is all an "Islam" problem. After all, there is really no such thing as a Palestinian, other than as a label for where a person might live. Kinda like being a Californian.

You may not know that the IDF has a history of using Palestinian civilians, including children, as human shields:
https://www.btselem.org/human_shields

Since the beginning of the occupation in 1967, Israeli security forces have repeatedly used Palestinians in the West Bank and in the Gaza Strip as human shields, ordering them to perform military tasks that risked their lives. As part of this policy, soldiers have ordered Palestinian civilians to remove suspicious objects from roads, to tell people to come out of their homes so the military can arrest them, to stand in front of soldiers while the latter shoot from behind them, and more. The Palestinian civilians were chosen at random for these tasks, and could not refuse the demand placed on them by armed soldiers.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

You may not know that the IDF has a history of using Palestinian civilians, including children, as human shields:
https://www.btselem.org/human_shields

It will take me a while to read that and verify the veracity of the claims. However, after reading a few paragraphs, it doesn't compare to the way Palestinians are used as Human Shields by Hamas and previously other "Palestinian" organizations. i.e. the IDF is not putting their military ordinance, nor the use of it, in heavily populated "civilian" areas and buildings. Also, Israelis are not putting their own people in harms way as "shields". Rather, they were using people who lived in the area sympathetic to the enemy. For me, it's a significant difference. Now, if the Israelis were bringing citizens from Israel proper to the area to do some of those things, I'd have a different perspective be they arab or jew.

 

[Vanellus]

It will take me a while to read that and verify the veracity of the claims. However, after reading a few paragraphs, it doesn't compare to the way Palestinians are used as Human Shields by Hamas and previously other "Palestinian" organizations. i.e. the IDF is not putting their military ordinance, nor the use of it, in heavily populated "civilian" areas and buildings. Also, Israelis are not putting their own people in harms way as "shields". Rather, they were using people who lived in the area sympathetic to the enemy. For me, it's a significant difference. Now, if the Israelis were bringing citizens from Israel proper to the area to do some of those things, I'd have a different perspective be they arab or jew.

I think your idea that these were willing human shields used by the IDF is flawed e.g.

For example, over the course of Operation Cast Lead, which took place in Gaza from December 2008 to January 2009, B'Tselem and other organizations were informed of incidents in which soldiers used Palestinians as human shields. The vast majority of these reports were never investigated, and those that did resulted in no further action. Soldiers were prosecuted in one case only. The two soldiers in question had ordered a nine-year-old boy, at gunpoint, to open a bag they suspected was booby-trapped. Despite the gravity of their conduct – putting a young child at risk – the two were given a three-month conditional sentence and demoted from staff sergeant to private, some two years after the incident took place. None of their commanding officers were tried.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

I think your idea that these were willing human shields used by the IDF is flawed e.g.

I didn't mean to say they were willing. I meant they were from enemy territory. It would be the equivalent of US soldiers, after D-Day, getting local German civilians to root out combatants in other buildings, as opposed to getting Frenchmen to.

 

[Vanellus]

I didn't mean to say they were willing. I meant they were from enemy territory. It would be the equivalent of US soldiers, after D-Day, getting local German civilians to root out combatants in other buildings, as opposed to getting Frenchmen to.

So it's ok to put a West Bank's Palestinian child's life at risk but not one who lives in Israel.

 

[Nithavela]

I didn't mean to say they were willing. I meant they were from enemy territory. It would be the equivalent of US soldiers, after D-Day, getting local German civilians to root out combatants in other buildings, as opposed to getting Frenchmen to.

That would still be a war crime.

I say would because I really doubt the veracity of these stories without any evidence.

 

[Vanellus]

That would still be a war crime.

I say would because I really doubt the veracity of these stories without any evidence.

Will this do?
Israel: Soldiers’ Punishment for Using Boy as ‘Human Shield’ Inadequate

An Israeli military court's sentence on November 21, 2010, for two soldiers found guilty of using a Palestinian boy as a "human shield" during the 2008-09 offensive in Gaza appears inadequate considering the gravity of the offense, Human Rights Watch said today

 

[Nithavela]

Will this do?
Israel: Soldiers’ Punishment for Using Boy as ‘Human Shield’ Inadequate

Great, so it happened and the soldiers were punished, even if the punishment was lax.

Every army has some soldiers doing war crimes during war, it's a sad fact of life. I still remember the war crimes of the US army in Iraq. The difference is that for Hamas, war crimes is the modus operandi, and one that is heartily supported by large parts of their civilian population.

 

[Vanellus]

Great, so it happened and the soldiers were punished, even if the punishment was lax.

Every army has some soldiers doing war crimes during war, it's a sad fact of life. I still remember the war crimes of the US army in Iraq. The difference is that for Hamas, war crimes is the modus operandi, and one that is heartily supported by large parts of their civilian population.

Being better than Hamas is a low bar. The Jewish human rights group which I referred to originally stated there were many cases which went unpunished.