Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Vanellus]

"Hamas, (which) is hiding in the hospitals and placing itself there, doesn't want the fuel for the hospital ... they want to get fuel that they'll take from the hospitals to their tunnels, to their war machine."
Netanyahu: Hamas refused Israeli fuel offer for Gaza's Shifa hospital

Why do you automatically believe Netanyahu (facing corruption charges) rather than the hospital doctors.

 

[Vanellus]

Score one for me.......

Hmm I'm supposed to know a Russian whose name you can't remember. This childish game playing is a waste of time and space given what we are discussing. Note "russian" should be spelt Russian.

 

[Vanellus]

For some reason I can't play those links......

The reason given being what? Youtube usually tells you why.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

U.S. Officials Outline Steps to Israel to Reduce Civilian Casualties​

"U.S. officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the meetings were private, said there had been a number of conversations in which they had advised their Israeli counterparts to take a more deliberate approach in their operations.

U.S. officials told the Israelis that they could reduce civilian casualties if they improved how they targeted Hamas leaders, gathered more intelligence on Hamas command and control networks before launching strikes, used smaller bombs to collapse the tunnel network and employed their ground forces to separate civilian population centers from where the militants are concentrated.

...

In the first two weeks of the war, roughly 90 percent of the munitions Israel dropped in Gaza were satellite-guided bombs of 1,000 to 2,000 pounds, according to a senior U.S. military official. The rest were 250-pound small-diameter bombs."

I don't remember that either the United States or Japan did anything to reduce civilian casualties when Japan invaded China, and after Pearl Harbour. But then no one cared about China in the late 1930s, and the United States did not have civilian casualties in mind when they went to war against the Japanese and finally dropped nuclear bombs on two Japanese cities. Also, when the Arab states attacked Israel during the 6 day and Yom Kippor wars, we didn't hear the United Nations demanding a ceasefire. It may have been when Israel was getting the upper hand and defeating the Arabs, that the United Nations would have demanded a cease fire. Why would they? To protect the Arabs, even though the Arabs started the two wars.

 

[Vanellus]

I don't remember that either the United States or Japan did anything to reduce civilian casualties when Japan invaded China, and after Pearl Harbour. But then no one cared about China in the late 1930s, and the United States did not have civilian casualties in mind when they went to war against the Japanese and finally dropped nuclear bombs on two Japanese cities. Also, when the Arab states attacked Israel during the 6 day and Yom Kippor wars, we didn't hear the United Nations demanding a ceasefire. It may have been when Israel was getting the upper hand and defeating the Arabs, that the United Nations would have demanded a cease fire. Why would they? To protect the Arabs, even though the Arabs started the two wars.

Hmm on the Six Day War:
"On 7 June, Dayan ordered his troops not to enter the Old City but, upon hearing that the UN was about to declare a ceasefire, he changed his mind, and without cabinet clearance, decided to capture it" quoted from Wikipedia whose source is

• Shlaim, Avi (2007). Lion of Jordan: The Life of King Hussein in War and Peace. Vintage Books. ISBN 978-1-4000-7828-8.

Btw it was Israel who started the shooting in that war.

 

[Vanellus]

For those on this thread who think the IDF campaign is about "destroying Hamas" (how do you destroy an idea) an Israeli government minister has let the cat out of the bag:

'We're rolling out Nakba 2023,' Israeli minister says on northern Gaza Strip evacuation

'We're Rolling Out Nakba 2023,' Israeli Minister Says on Northern Gaza Strip Evacuation

 

[Valletta]

Why do you automatically believe Netanyahu (facing corruption charges) rather than the hospital doctors.

They say there is no Hamas command center at the hospital. Do you believe there is not even one Hamas there?

 

[Abraxos]

Not sure if this was brought up already, but the IOF released probably one of the dumbest propaganda skits I've ever seen saying that a calendar at the Rantisi Children's Hospital in Gaza has a hostage guard list on it. The problem is that the names they're pointing to just say Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday etc in Arabic.

A Link to an analysis of the "irrefutable proof" and whether it holds up to scrutiny:

 

[Abraxos]

They say there is no Hamas command center at the hospital. Do you believe there is not even one Hamas there?

In terms of the Izz al-Din Qassam, the military arm of Hamas, no.

 

[trophy33]

They say there is no Hamas command center at the hospital. Do you believe there is not even one Hamas there?

Are not "one Hamas" and "Hamas command center" two quite different things?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hmm on the Six Day War:
"On 7 June, Dayan ordered his troops not to enter the Old City but, upon hearing that the UN was about to declare a ceasefire, he changed his mind, and without cabinet clearance, decided to capture it" quoted from Wikipedia whose source is

• Shlaim, Avi (2007). Lion of Jordan: The Life of King Hussein in War and Peace. Vintage Books. ISBN 978-1-4000-7828-8.

Btw it was Israel who started the shooting in that war.

It actually wasn't. Hamas started the war by invading southern Israel and murdered 1400 innocent men, women and children. Of course, one forgets that the United States invaded the lands of the Indian nations and took their lands away from them. Remember the massacre of Wounded Knee where U.S. soldiers murdered innocent, unarmed men, women and children who were living peacefully in their homes. So we have to be careful to avoid hypocrisy.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

In terms of the Izz al-Din Qassam, the military arm of Hamas, no.

We don't know who is telling the truth or lying. The news media were quick to blame Israel for an explosion at a hospital when the truth was that it was a misfired Hamas rocket.

 

[Bradskii]

The news media were quick to blame Israel for an explosion at a hospital when the truth was that it was a misfired Hamas rocket.

The news media were quick to say that Hamas blamed Israel for an explosion at a hospital.

 

[Abraxos]

We don't know who is telling the truth or lying. The news media were quick to blame Israel for an explosion at a hospital when the truth was that it was a misfired Hamas rocket.

Well, I've seen the evidence that refutes Israel's claim that Hamas did it, and to surmise, a homemade rocket has never created that much destruction. However, some footage captured the sound of the strike as almost identical to the strike which hit the Al-Ahli hospital, and missiles that make that sound are American JDAM missiles carried by jets. A guided air-to-surface weapon which can weigh almost a tonne. They also have a “proximity fuse” setting, which can be programmed to explode on impact or at any desired distance above the ground. If it exploded just before impact, it would leave a much smaller crater and cause far less damage to the hospital.
Other pieces of evidence further substantiate this, but if you ask me, I've seen and heard enough: Israel bombed the Baptist hospital, and they have been since the start. They bombarded nearly all hospitals, schools, homes and refugee camps. They cut power and utilities and banned essentials. Thousands upon thousands of victims, many being children.

So why did Israel lie about this one? Because nearly 500 civilians got killed, sparking global outrage, many of whom were taking shelter from nearly two weeks of relentless Israeli bombing.

 

[Vanellus]

It actually wasn't. Hamas started the war by invading southern Israel and murdered 1400 innocent men, women and children. Of course, one forgets that the United States invaded the lands of the Indian nations and took their lands away from them. Remember the massacre of Wounded Knee where U.S. soldiers murdered innocent, unarmed men, women and children who were living peacefully in their homes. So we have to be careful to avoid hypocrisy.

I'm not an American and the Six Day War didn't start in October 2023!

 

[Vanellus]

Well, I've seen the evidence that refutes Israel's claim that Hamas did it, and to surmise, a homemade rocket has never created that much destruction. However, some footage captured the sound of the strike as almost identical to the strike which hit the Al-Ahli hospital, and missiles that make that sound are American JDAM missiles carried by jets. A guided air-to-surface weapon which can weigh almost a tonne. They also have a “proximity fuse” setting, which can be programmed to explode on impact or at any desired distance above the ground. If it exploded just before impact, it would leave a much smaller crater and cause far less damage to the hospital.
Other pieces of evidence further substantiate this, but if you ask me, I've seen and heard enough: Israel bombed the Baptist hospital, and they have been since the start. They bombarded nearly all hospitals, schools, homes and refugee camps. They cut power and utilities and banned essentials. Thousands upon thousands of victims, many being children.

So why did Israel lie about this one? Because nearly 500 civilians got killed, sparking global outrage, many of whom were taking shelter from nearly two weeks of relentless Israeli bombing.

Yes I've seen footage like that and shared it in this forum in an earlier now closed thread: it was very compelling - the sound of the missile was very similar.

 

[Vanellus]

We don't know who is telling the truth or lying. The news media were quick to blame Israel for an explosion at a hospital when the truth was that it was a misfired Hamas rocket.

and this is what the misinformation from both sides is meant to produce - gaslight us so we begin to doubt the evidence of our eyes. For instance this is a picture from the "safe" area of southern Gaza:

 

[Gene2memE]

I don't remember that either the United States or Japan did anything to reduce civilian casualties when Japan invaded China,

In 1931 or 1937?

The US reaction was pretty strong. By the international standards of the time, the initial oil embargo and then near total trade embargo with Japan were strident indeed. The US also created the Stimson Doctrine in response, which denied official recognition of regions annexed by force. Then there was all the actions that the US undertook concerning the fighting in the League of Nations - actions which contributed to Japan's departure from the organisation.

and after Pearl Harbour.

By which time the realities of the war and the recognition of the technical limitations of air power at the time meant that any adherence to the 'Roosevelt Rules' - which had demanded that all belligerents refrain from bombing civilians - had evaporated.

The US went into the conflicts of the mid to late 1930s with the conception that civilian casualties should be avoided at all costs. This naivety promptly evaporated after Pearl Harbour, although there were lingering strains of resistance in many echelons of US society all the way through the war.

But then no one cared about China in the late 1930s,

I really suggest that you read up on the history of the period. The Japanese occupation of Manchuria and then it's 1937 invasion caused a HUGE amount of international upset.

The US approach was formally one of strict neutrality - in keeping with the terms of the Neutrality Act, the Roosevelt government really didn't want to be seen favouring any side. However, there was huge outcry among the US population from late 1937 on (not helped by the Japanese sinking a US patrol ship, or coverage from Nanking).

and the United States did not have civilian casualties in mind when they went to war against the Japanese and finally dropped nuclear bombs on two Japanese cities

Well, they did. The US went from demanding belligerents avoid targeting civilians, to deliberately firebombing Japanese cities. The "dehousing" as it was euphemistically known, was intentional.

Also, when the Arab states attacked Israel during the 6 day and Yom Kippor wars, we didn't hear the United Nations demanding a ceasefire.

Again, check your history.

The UN called for a ceasefire within 48 hours of the start of the Six Day War. For the Yom Kippur war, the UN immediately started diplomatic efforts towards a ceasefire, but only managed to formally broker deal 16 days in, as outlined under Resolution 338.

It may have been when Israel was getting the upper hand and defeating the Arabs, that the United Nations would have demanded a cease fire. Why would they? To protect the Arabs, even though the Arabs started the two wars.

You really need to read up on your history.

 

[wing2000]

It actually wasn't. Hamas started the war by invading southern Israel and murdered 1400 innocent men, women and children. Of course, one forgets that the United States invaded the lands of the Indian nations and took their lands away from them. Remember the massacre of Wounded Knee where U.S. soldiers murdered innocent, unarmed men, women and children who were living peacefully in their homes. So we have to be careful to avoid hypocrisy.

Is it hypocrisy to counsel Israel to use more appropriate and precise munitions based on today's technology to achieve it's military objective?

 

[wing2000]

NYT's David Leonhardt writes:

The Debate Over Al-Shifa (Published 2023)

The battle over the hospital highlights the lack of simple answers in Gaza.

www.nytimes.com

There is substantial evidence that Hamas has used the hospital for military operations and has built a command center underneath it as part of Gaza’s tunnel network:​

A New York Times journalist in 2008 watched armed Hamas militants walking around Al-Shifa Hospital in civilian clothes and witnessed Hamas execute a Palestinian man accused of collaborating with Israel. Amnesty International concluded that in 2014 Hamas used parts of Al-Shifa “to detain, interrogate, torture and otherwise ill-treat suspects, even as other parts of the hospital continued to function as a medical center.” More recently, Israel has released audio recordings that purport to contain conversations in which Hamas fighters discuss tunnels under Al-Shifa as well as videos of interrogations in which captured militants discuss the tunnels. Israeli officials allowed Times reporters to view photographs that appear to show secret entrances inside the hospital that lead to a military compound underneath. U.S. officials say their own intelligence also indicates Hamas has built a tunnel network under Al-Shifa that includes command and control areas as well as weapons storage. Hamas has a long history of placing its operations in hospitals, mosques and other civilian areas so that Israel must risk killing innocent bystanders — and thereby damage its reputation — to attack Hamas fighters. “I’ve seen these things for myself,” Steven Erlanger, a longtime Times correspondent, has said on “The Daily” podcast.