Israel-Hamas Thread II

[rjs330]

Al Shifa hospital suspends operations, baby dies: Gaza health ministry

Al Shifa hospital suspends operations, baby dies: Gaza health ministry​

MSN

Premature babies die as Gaza’s al-Shifa hospital loses power amid alleged IDF attacks​

Latest reports are that three premature babies have died now.

You know who's fault that is? Hamas. Hamas as the fuel to run the generators to power the hospital and they won't do that. Hamas has a base in the hospital. Israel wouldn't even be there if it weren't for them.

Hamas is directly responsible for any death that occurs there.

They need to give up and surrender.

 

[Valletta]

You know who's fault that is? Hamas. Hamas as the fuel to run the generators to power the hospital and they won't do that. Hamas has a base in the hospital. Israel wouldn't even be there if it weren't for them.

Hamas is directly responsible for any death that occurs there.

They need to give up and surrender.

​

Netanyahu says Hamas refused Israeli fuel offer for Gaza's Shifa hospital

Netanyahu was asked by NBC News whether Israeli allegations that Hamas had a command post under Gaza's main hospital justified jeopardizing the lives of sick people and babies. "On the contrary, we offered actually, last night, to give them enough fuel to operate the hospital, operate the...

www.aol.com

 

[rjs330]

​

Netanyahu says Hamas refused Israeli fuel offer for Gaza's Shifa hospital

Netanyahu was asked by NBC News whether Israeli allegations that Hamas had a command post under Gaza's main hospital justified jeopardizing the lives of sick people and babies. "On the contrary, we offered actually, last night, to give them enough fuel to operate the hospital, operate the...

www.aol.com

Wow, and people STILL want to criticize Israel? Jimminy Christmas how on earth can people still do that? Why hasn't everyone turned on Hamas?

Oh wait I know why. Anti-Semitism is alive and well. Jew hatred is blatantly obvious.

 

[JosephZ]

We let them escape in Pakistan. If you let them escape you haven't defeated them. And as long as we were in Afghanistan they never came back.

The Taliban never left Afghanistan. Some of the leaders escaped, but not all, and most of the terrorists remained in the country. Also, the number of attacks carried out by the Taliban in Afghanistan increased the entire time we were in Afghanistan. There were more terrorist attacks carried out by the Taliban in 2020 alone than there were in the first 10 years of the war.

And you didn't actually disprove my terrorism point. Of course there were more terrorism attacks during the war. It makes perfect sense. The terrorists were trying to defeat us.

Most of the attacks, greater than 85%, were not targeting US forces; they were carried out against private citizens, religious institutions, schools, local police/security forces, and the Afghan government.

We have been reminded that this is an Israel-Hamas thread not a thread about Afghanistan, so I think we should end the off topic discussion here.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I used the term "Islamic Terrorism" because it is the face of modern terrorism and has been the primary source of terrorism over the past decade.

Most consider the "modern era" to extend past the last decade and since my statement was not specific to Islamic terrorism I didn't see the point in focusing on it they way....but we can if you want.

View attachment 339131

There is no denying that western intervention in the Middle East has led to an increase in terrorist activities in that region.

Actually there's plenty of denying that lol...

Take a look at the Ottoman Empire in 1912.

It's just as fair to say "western intervention" created Iraq....just as it created Palestine and Israel.

The Ottoman Empire suffered a free fall collapse after WW1. They had no real power in the majority of the green region above, and regardless of whatever motives you ascribe the west....they clearly saw it irresponsible to leave these giant power vacuums and tried to set up friendly autonomous states. Obviously, it didn't work out in every case.

Yes, you can blame the west....but you can also blame the former Ottoman Empire for it's gross corruption and mismanagement.

So to go all the way back to post WW1, and play "what if the west never intervened?" is fun....but you'll have to go at least a century back and tell me what sort of fantasy scenario you're imagining that doesn't involve large groups of Muslim zealots and rampaging/pillaging for their dreams of a new empire.

What do you think would have happened if the west stayed uninvolved?

Conflict is the primary driver of terrorism, and had the US and its allies not invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, there wouldn't have been such dramatic increases in terrorist incidents in those countries.

The US didn't create the Taliban. The US didn't create Al Qaeda. The US did ignore these threats until they grew in such power and sophistication that they did 9/11.

But please, enlighten me....how is that "the west's fault"?

This is a fact. With the exception of the period surrounding the first Gulf War, terrorism in Iraq and Afghanistan was a relatively rare occurrence prior to the US-led invasions of those countries.

View attachment 339129

Anything I could say on this subject would be pure speculation.

The first Gulf War? Where we defended the Kuwait from an invading Iraq and then left?

I created the graphs using data from the Global Terrorism Database (GTD) provided by the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism (START).

Lol ok...well that explains why I don't recognize them.

The definition of a terrorist group has remained fairly consistant over time.

Would Saddam Hussein's control of the Ba'athist Party and position as head of the secret police constitute a terrorist organization before or after his ascending to dictator?

A terrorist group is defined as being a nonstate actor that uses illegal force and/or violence to attain a political, economic, religious, or social goal.

And yet groups like Hezbolla and Hamas are considered terrorist groups despite clearly being state actors.

The rise in terrorism in the Middle East is not related to the arrival of the internet. It is directly related to violence and conflict.

Ok...just a coincidence then.

Researchers at the Institute for Economics and Peace have combed the GTD data for patterns and identified two features common to countries where terrorism thrives. According to their research, 92 percent of all terrorist attacks in the past 25 years have occurred in countries with widespread state-sponsored political violence, while 88 percent of attacks have occurred in places with violent conflicts.

“The link between these two factors and terrorism is so strong that less than 0.6 per cent of all terrorist attacks have occurred in countries without any ongoing conflict and any form of political terror,” the researchers write in the 2015 Global Terrorism Index Report.

In most Muslim-majority countries with a significant level of terrorist activity, one or both of these features are present.

I'm not really interested in what official sources say...it's rather clear they don't understand what causes these groups or how to prevent their formation.

 

[rjs330]

The Taliban never left Afghanistan. Some of the leaders escaped, but not all, and most of the terrorists remained in the country. Also, the number of attacks carried out by the Taliban in Afghanistan increased the entire time we were in Afghanistan. There were more terrorist attacks carried out by the Taliban in 2020 alone than there were in the first 10 years of the war.

View attachment 339140

Most of the attacks, greater than 85%, were not targeting US forces; they were carried out against private citizens, religious institutions, schools, local police/security forces, and the Afgahn government.

We have been reminded that this is an Israel-Hamas thread not a thread about Afghanistan, so I think we should end the off topic discussion here.

They still let Taliban escape. Did you actually think I meant every single Taliban fighter? I didn't. There is an unknown number of Taliban that escaped into Pakistan.

Also American failed to destroy the Taliban. Because they fought a politically correct war. It was a failure of leadership that created that. American was too queezy to do what was needed. Cut off the border and squeeze. They had no real strategy to destroy the Taliban.

And I didn't say all the attacks were against the US troops. Terrorism was a Taliban tactic to try and get the police to not support the US troops. This was all related to trying to defeat the US. All of it. From the start to finish.

Had the US committed as Israel has done we may have relegated the Taliban to almost nothing.

You don't win wars playing patty cake.

 

[Nithavela]

They still let Taliban escape. Did you actually think I meant every single Taliban fighter? I didn't. There is an unknown number of Taliban that escaped into Pakistan.

Also American failed to destroy the Taliban. Because they fought a politically correct war. It was a failure of leadership that created that. American was too queezy to do what was needed. Cut off the border and squeeze. They had no real strategy to destroy the Taliban.

And I didn't say all the attacks were against the US troops. Terrorism was a Taliban tactic to try and get the police to not support the US troops. This was all related to trying to defeat the US. All of it. From the start to finish.

Had the US committed as Israel has done we may have relegated the Taliban to almost nothing.

You don't win wars playing patty cake.

Do you think Russia waged a politically correct war in 1979 - 1989?

 

[Valletta]

Do you think Russia waged a politically correct war in 1979 - 1989?

Let's stay on topic.

 

[civilwarbuff]

It's hard to convince people you're the good guys after you destroy their homeland and kill their loved ones.

Which is/was the M.O. of AQ. It was just that they were the more immediate threat than the possibility of their neighborhood being bombed.....well, at least until AQ showed up.....kinda like Hamas is doing. The Gazans are suffering because of the actions and utter hate they have for Jews.....plain and simple.

Had the US worked to improve the lives of Afgans and Iraqis while simultaneously focusing on hunting down the terrorists through law enforcement methods and targeting individual terrorists and their leadership, then perhaps the ideology behind al Quada could have been defeated and the rise of ISIS would have never occurred.

They did but the Afgans suffered for the same reason reason the Gazans are suffering.....they allowed AQ to reside and live amongst them rather than turn them in. The Gazans could learn from that example but the immediate threat of Hamas outweighs the possibility of being bombed or shot by the IDF.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Remember this is an Israel-Hamas thread not a thread about Afghanistan - just saying.

It is pointing out the fact that there is nothing new under the sun (Ecc. 1:9) and it is too bad people don't learn from the past.

 

[Vanellus]

It is pointing out the fact that there is nothing new under the sun (Ecc. 1:9) and it is too bad people don't learn from the past.

It went on far too long: enough is enough.

 

[Vambram]

MSN

Hamas tells NY Times it hopes war with Israel is ‘permanent,’ paper says Hamas not interested in governing

Behind Hamas’s Bloody Gambit to Create a ‘Permanent’ State of War (Published 2023)

Hamas leaders say they waged their Oct. 7 attack on Israel because they believed the Palestinian cause was slipping away, and that only violence could revive it.

www.nytimes.com

"The Hamas terror group told The New York Times that it hopes the war with Israel will "become permanent on all the borders" and the Oct. 7 massacre "succeeded in putting the Palestinian issue back on the table, and now no one in the region is experiencing calm."

A Times report headlined, "Behind Hamas’s Bloody Gambit to Create a ‘Permanent’ State of War," featured a subhead that "Hamas leaders say they waged their Oct. 7 attack on Israel because they believed the Palestinian cause was slipping away, and that only violence could revive it.
"The terror group achieved violence, killing at least 1,400 civilians including women, children and the elderly while kidnapping hundreds of civilian hostages. Israel has responded with force, and the Times reported that "carnage is not the regrettable outcome of a big miscalculation" but instead a "necessary cost of a great accomplishment — the shattering of the status quo and the opening of a new, more volatile chapter in their fight against Israel."

 

[Chesterton]

 

[Vanellus]

MSN

Hamas tells NY Times it hopes war with Israel is ‘permanent,’ paper says Hamas not interested in governing

Behind Hamas’s Bloody Gambit to Create a ‘Permanent’ State of War (Published 2023)

Hamas leaders say they waged their Oct. 7 attack on Israel because they believed the Palestinian cause was slipping away, and that only violence could revive it.

www.nytimes.com

"The Hamas terror group told The New York Times that it hopes the war with Israel will "become permanent on all the borders" and the Oct. 7 massacre "succeeded in putting the Palestinian issue back on the table, and now no one in the region is experiencing calm."

A Times report headlined, "Behind Hamas’s Bloody Gambit to Create a ‘Permanent’ State of War," featured a subhead that "Hamas leaders say they waged their Oct. 7 attack on Israel because they believed the Palestinian cause was slipping away, and that only violence could revive it.
"The terror group achieved violence, killing at least 1,400 civilians including women, children and the elderly while kidnapping hundreds of civilian hostages. Israel has responded with force, and the Times reported that "carnage is not the regrettable outcome of a big miscalculation" but instead a "necessary cost of a great accomplishment — the shattering of the status quo and the opening of a new, more volatile chapter in their fight against Israel."

Well an Israeli Likud member called for the use of a doomsday weapon to wipe out Gaza but I don't think Israel would go that far because it would be a crossing a line that would mean loss of US support on which Israel depends.

Israeli politician calls for 'Doomsday' missiles to be dropped on Hamas and Gaza

Revital ‘Tally’ Gotliv, a member of the right-wing Likud party in the Israeli parliament issued a series of horrifying tweets calling for a brutal wave of attacks that would “shake the Middle East”. The 47-year-old Israeli lawmaker, is from the same party as the country’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Likud, who rules in conjunction with four ultra-religious and far right parties. She said she wanted to “crush and flatten” Gaza - one of the world’s most densely populated countries. She said Israel should loosen “everything in its arsenal” against Gaza, following brutal Hamas attacks Saturday that kicked off the latest wave of conflict and have seen over two thousand people die on both sides. It is believed that Israel has a number of nuclear weapons, and has done so since the 1960s, but the country has never confirmed it. Alongside "doomsday" weapons, she also called for “Jericho missiles”, a generic term given to Israel’s ballistic missile arsenal.

The argument that a ceasefire would not work because Hamas is committed to destroying the "Zionist project" is flawed since it was Hamas who adhered to the June 2008 ceasefire and it was Israel who committed multiple breaches and finally broke it 5 months later.

2008 Israel–Hamas ceasefire - Wikipedia

Prior to the incident on 4 November, in which Israeli forces destroyed a cross-border tunnel and killed six of its operatives, Hamas had been scrupulously adhering to the ceasefire – not firing rockets itself and reining in other Palestinian groups.

Counter-Terrorism and State Political Violence: The 'War on Terror' as Terror

 

[wing2000]

Comparing counter insurgency operations in Gaza, a land area roughly the size of Philedelphia, to Afghanistatan, is silly.

 

[Vanellus]

I'm beginning to wonder that if Israel fails to prove Hamas is using all the hospitals they have claimed they are using, then posters who have asserted that these hospitals are being used by Hamas will slope off rather than acknowledge they were wrong.

 

[Valletta]

The argument that a ceasefire would not work because Hamas is committed to destroying the "Zionist project" is flawed since it was Hamas who adhered to the June 2008 ceasefire and it was Israel who committed multiple breaches and finally broke it 5 months later.

2008 Israel–Hamas ceasefire - Wikipedia

Wikipedia is not a reliable source for any matter where there is a difference of opinion. Any Hamas member can go on wikipedia and write what he wants.

 

[Pommer]

Wikipedia is not a reliable source for any matter where there is a difference of opinion. Any Hamas member can go on wikipedia and write what he wants.

Try changing something substantial in any article on Wikipedia and time how fast it is reverted.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I'm beginning to wonder that if Israel fails to prove Hamas is using all the hospitals they have claimed they are using, then posters who have asserted that these hospitals are being used by Hamas will slope off rather than acknowledge they were wrong.

My apologies for the extreme plagiarism........

I'm beginning to wonder that if Israel proves Hamas is using all the hospitals they have claimed they are using, then posters who have asserted that these hospitals are not being used by Hamas will slope off rather than acknowledge they were wrong.

 

[Vanellus]

Latest report is that 7 of the 36 premature babies have now died - the al Shifa hospital did not have the fuel to power them.