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Israel-Hamas Thread II

JosephZ

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It doesn't matter what Hamas wants. In other kinds of situations it might matter what the enemy wants, but this is different. When I quoted that Latin phrase about "_____ must be destroyed", you agreed with me. But the reason I quoted it, is that I've always taken the key word to be "must"; it has to be done, regardless of what it takes to get it done. So far, Israel is doing a very good job of ignoring world opinion, as they should.
I still agree with you that Hamas must be destroyed, we just disagree on how that can be done.

Just a few days into this conflict on October 11th, I said "When people see their homes leveled, family members killed, or entire communities destroyed by military action, it often leads them to support or even join terrorist groups themselves. Years of military action against Gaza and the Palestinians have become a rallying cry for terrorists around the world, and Israel's renewed bombardment of Gaza and the killing of innocent civilians is only going to lead to further violence, not only in Israel but in other parts of the world as well."

And again on October 12th, I said, "Israel is not going to be able to destroy Hamas militarily. It may drive Hamas underground for awhile, but they will reappear at some point in the future, perhaps under another name, but it will still be the same actors. The current approach is only going to exacerbate long-standing grievances between the Palestinians and Israel, and until those grievances are addressed, terrorist attacks against Israel will continue. With every Palistinian child, brother, sister, father, mother, or grandparent that is killed by Isreali forces, another potential terrorist is born.

Other side effects of the ongoing military campaign against Hamas will be the possibility of splinter groups forming, foreign terrorist groups and lone wolves who sympathize with Hamas, and the struggle of the Palestinian people to conduct terror attacks in other parts of the world. Until there's a comprehensive approach that addresses the grievances of not only the Palestinians but also those of the Israelis, the conflict between the two will continue."


My responses were based on my education in terrorism studies and countering violent extremism and my experiences working with victims of conflict in Mindanao, where there were many similarities to the Israel/Palestine conflict. As the current conflict between Israel and Hamas is entering its second month, I see little hope in preventing future attacks against Israel and the countries that supported Israel's method of response to the October 7th terrorist attack. I'm afraid we may see a spike in terrorism that could rival what we saw in the mid-2010s. I hope I'm wrong, but everything is pointing in that direction. The sad thing about all of this is that it didn't have to be this way. Unfortunately, Israel and many other western powers still haven't learned from their past mistakes when it comes to dealing with terrorist groups.

Below is an article from a couple of days ago that shares the same outlook as I do, from experts who are far more qualified than myself on the subject, on where things will likely go as a result of Israel's unrelenting bombardment of Gaza.

Israel’s ferocious bombardment of the Gaza Strip will create an incubator for a new generation of terrorists, some extremism experts say, as thousands of young people who have lost families and homes risk being radicalized by the war and its likely chaotic aftermath.

“The cycle of radicalization cannot be thwarted by operations like the one Israel is carrying out, which only makes the cycle deeper, wider and uglier,” said H.A. Hellyer, a senior associate fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, a Washington, D.C., think tank. He said the conflict risks creating “Hamas 2.0” or perhaps “worse, from another group we’ve not seen yet.”

“You’re going to radicalize more people,” said Hanan Ashrawi, a veteran Palestinian politician and negotiator based in the occupied West Bank. “And you’re not only going to increase the trauma — you’re going to increase the demand for revenge.”

It is a well-established idea in radicalization studies: A state attempts to wipe out a militant group, only for the ensuing civilian collateral damage to become the best recruitment tool for that organization or ideal.

A recent example is the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003, which experts argue ultimately spawned the Islamic State, or ISIS.

The problem with the current bombing and ground campaign in Gaza, the radicalization experts’ argument goes, is that it might actually increase the risk to Israel and other countries in the long run.

The idea of defeating Hamas might be “emotionally satisfying,” said Lt. Col. Frederic Wehrey, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. “We have to recall the tenor of the moment. There’s a desire for revenge.”

But Wehrey, who served two decades as an officer in the U.S. Air Force, doesn’t believe that’s achievable. “You’re talking about eradicating a deeply entrenched movement,” he said, “a social entity, an entity that has its grip over Gaza.” Furthermore, militant groups such as Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad have been able to use the regular bombardment and the 16-year blockade of their enclave as potent methods of enlistment.

“Seeing your family exterminated, seeing close friends die abruptly at the hands of an enemy, these can all mobilize and motivate people towards violence,”


By the way, in this earlier post, I mentioned to you a friend of mine from the West Bank. Last Sunday, he told me 12 of his extended family were killed in the blast at the Orthodox Church in Gaza. I think only 18 people were killed, and 12 of them were relatives of his. He is a good man, he's not going to be radicalized.
I hope you are right about your friend, but anyone can become radicalized.
 
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Valletta

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Israel good
Palestine bad

It’s so simple when we can couch it in black & white terms!
Israel escorted some 50,000 Palestinians in a safe corridor to protect them from Hamas just two days ago, and I understand Israel saved another 70,000 or so Palestinians today. Hamas could have a cease fire any time if they just released the hostages. The difference seems quite clear to me.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I still agree with you that Hamas must be destroyed, we just disagree on how that can be done.

Just a few days into this conflict on October 11th, I said "When people see their homes leveled, family members killed, or entire communities destroyed by military action, it often leads them to support or even join terrorist groups themselves. Years of military action against Gaza and the Palestinians have become a rallying cry for terrorists around the world, and Israel's renewed bombardment of Gaza and the killing of innocent civilians is only going to lead to further violence, not only in Israel but in other parts of the world as well."

And again on October 12th, I said, "Israel is not going to be able to destroy Hamas militarily. It may drive Hamas underground for awhile, but they will reappear at some point in the future, perhaps under another name, but it will still be the same actors. The current approach is only going to exacerbate long-standing grievances between the Palestinians and Israel, and until those grievances are addressed, terrorist attacks against Israel will continue. With every Palistinian child, brother, sister, father, mother, or grandparent that is killed by Isreali forces, another potential terrorist is born.

Other side effects of the ongoing military campaign against Hamas will be the possibility of splinter groups forming, foreign terrorist groups and lone wolves who sympathize with Hamas, and the struggle of the Palestinian people to conduct terror attacks in other parts of the world. Until there's a comprehensive approach that addresses the grievances of not only the Palestinians but also those of the Israelis, the conflict between the two will continue."


My responses were based on my education in terrorism studies and countering violent extremism and my experiences working with victims of conflict in Mindanao, where there were many similarities to the Israel/Palestine conflict. As the current conflict between Israel and Hamas is entering its second month, I see little hope in preventing future attacks against Israel and the countries that supported Israel's method of response to the October 7th terrorist attack. I'm afraid we may see a spike in terrorism that could rival what we saw in the mid-2010s. I hope I'm wrong, but everything is pointing in that direction. The sad thing about all of this is that it didn't have to be this way. Unfortunately, Israel and many other western powers still haven't learned from their past mistakes when it comes to dealing with terrorist groups.

Below is an article from a couple of days ago that shares the same outlook as I do, from experts who are far more qualified than myself on the subject, on where things will likely go as a result of Israel's unrelenting bombardment of Gaza.

Israel’s ferocious bombardment of the Gaza Strip will create an incubator for a new generation of terrorists, some extremism experts say, as thousands of young people who have lost families and homes risk being radicalized by the war and its likely chaotic aftermath.

“The cycle of radicalization cannot be thwarted by operations like the one Israel is carrying out, which only makes the cycle deeper, wider and uglier,” said H.A. Hellyer, a senior associate fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, a Washington, D.C., think tank. He said the conflict risks creating “Hamas 2.0” or perhaps “worse, from another group we’ve not seen yet.”

“You’re going to radicalize more people,” said Hanan Ashrawi, a veteran Palestinian politician and negotiator based in the occupied West Bank. “And you’re not only going to increase the trauma — you’re going to increase the demand for revenge.”

It is a well-established idea in radicalization studies: A state attempts to wipe out a militant group, only for the ensuing civilian collateral damage to become the best recruitment tool for that organization or ideal.

A recent example is the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003, which experts argue ultimately spawned the Islamic State, or ISIS.

The problem with the current bombing and ground campaign in Gaza, the radicalization experts’ argument goes, is that it might actually increase the risk to Israel and other countries in the long run.

The idea of defeating Hamas might be “emotionally satisfying,” said Lt. Col. Frederic Wehrey, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. “We have to recall the tenor of the moment. There’s a desire for revenge.”

But Wehrey, who served two decades as an officer in the U.S. Air Force, doesn’t believe that’s achievable. “You’re talking about eradicating a deeply entrenched movement,” he said, “a social entity, an entity that has its grip over Gaza.” Furthermore, militant groups such as Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad have been able to use the regular bombardment and the 16-year blockade of their enclave as potent methods of enlistment.

“Seeing your family exterminated, seeing close friends die abruptly at the hands of an enemy, these can all mobilize and motivate people towards violence,”

When Palestinian children grow up elsewhere....they won't dream of killing Israelis over land they never had.



I hope you are right about your friend, but anyone can become radicalized.

If you had paid attention to my post earlier....you'd have noticed that 10,000+ rockets have been launched into Israel, some years few, some many, for the past 10 years.

If a nation did that to us, we would turn them to ash.
 
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Chesterton

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I and others have already addressed the point you're making, but I thought this was kind of funny:
And again on October 12th, I said, "Israel is not going to be able to destroy Hamas militarily. It may drive Hamas underground for awhile, but they will reappear at some point in the future, perhaps under another name, but it will still be the same actors.
Hamas is already underground. They live there, and are now surrounded there. Eventually they'll run out of fuel, and food, and water, and air. To paraphrase our Lord, "he who lives by the tunnel shall die by the tunnel".
 
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Chesterton

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If a nation did that to us, we would turn them to ash.
Earlier today I heard a funny anecdote. An Israeli dignitary met with George Bush, Jr. when he was president, and was trying to explain what living in Israel was like. He said "If Mexico started firing rockets into Texas, in one hour there would be no Mexico". Bush replied "One hour? More like ten minutes."
 
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Pommer

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Earlier today I heard a funny anecdote. An Israeli dignitary met with George Bush, Jr. when he was president, and was trying to explain what living in Israel was like. He said "If Mexico started firing rockets into Texas, in one hour there would be no Mexico". Bush replied "One hour? More like ten minutes."
I dunno about answering “rockets” with the annihilation of a nation with (I suppose) nuclear weapons. I’m pretty sure that that is frowned upon.
 
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rjs330

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The cycle of radicalization cannot be thwarted by operations like the one Israel is carrying out, which only makes the cycle deeper, wider and uglier,” said H.A. Hellyer, a senior associate fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, a Washington, D.C., think tank. He said the conflict risks creating “Hamas 2.0” or perhaps “worse, from another group we’ve not seen yet.”

“You’re going to radicalize more people,” said Hanan Ashrawi, a veteran Palestinian politician and negotiator based in the occupied West Bank. “And you’re not only going to increase the trauma — you’re going to increase the demand for revenge.”
Spoken well by a Jew hater and terrorist. It's one of their secret weapons. Gather terrorists by the thousands and then attack. Then once they are done tell everyone " hey you don't want to do anything to us cause of you do then your just going to create more terrorists!" Then one no one does anything they continue to get more terrorists anyway.

It's just another terror tactic. And the foolish buy it.
 
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Chesterton

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I dunno about answering “rockets” with the annihilation of a nation with (I suppose) nuclear weapons. I’m pretty sure that that is frowned upon.
Note to self: If Pommer ever runs for President, do not vote for him, because he worries more about being "frowned upon" than about the lives of his citizens and his nation's survival.
 
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wing2000

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Oh I've read it all right. Not on this thread but on the one that was shut down. People said it. And haven't you read anything anywhere or heard anything anywhere about Israel committing genocide on the Palestinians?

Sure, people "anywhere" say lots of things. I try to discuss what people actually write here. IMO, using terms such as genocide, apartheid, antisemitism, etc do nothing to further understanding of the situation and are more often than not, used inappropriately.
 
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JosephZ

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Gather terrorists by the thousands and then attack. Then once they are done tell everyone " hey you don't want to do anything to us cause of you do then your just going to create more terrorists!" Then one no one does anything they continue to get more terrorists anyway.

It's just another terror tactic. And the foolish buy it.
The terrorists and their leadership must be held accountable for their actions, and the terrorist group must be neutralized. This can be done without bombing entire neighborhoods and killing thousands of innocent civilians.
 
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Vanellus

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Earlier today I heard a funny anecdote. An Israeli dignitary met with George Bush, Jr. when he was president, and was trying to explain what living in Israel was like. He said "If Mexico started firing rockets into Texas, in one hour there would be no Mexico". Bush replied "One hour? More like ten minutes."
Maybe the system used should be called Skynet.
 
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Margaret3110

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The terrorists and their leadership must be held accountable for their actions, and the terrorist group must be neutralized. This can be done without bombing entire neighborhoods and killing thousands of innocent civilians.
How would you suggest they do it? (I'm not being snarky, I am truly curious.)
 
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rjs330

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How would you suggest they do it? (I'm not being snarky, I am truly curious.)
He posted his thoughts on the issue. And none of them but the military option would work with Hamas. Except the military option. And it looks like Israel is doing that. So he doesn't really have anything.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Ana the Ist

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Note to self: If Pommer ever runs for President, do not vote for him, because he worries more about being "frowned upon" than about the lives of his citizens and his nation's survival.

It's wild to see what's become of some of the minds of the left. They imagine words are violence, causing lasting trauma....but rockets? Hey now...so what if rockets and indiscriminate murder of 1400 and more taken hostage happened? The important thing is we try and understand the pov of the vicious murderous hordes that would genocide you in a heartbeat if they could....see if they are willing to forgive you for supplying water, power, and food to them.
 
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FireDragon76

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That doesn't answer my question at all.

The level of casuistry to defend blowing apart thousands of women and children with bombs, something any decent person would otherwise find immoral, is the problem.
 
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wing2000

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Note to self: If Pommer ever runs for President, do not vote for him, because he worries more about being "frowned upon" than about the lives of his citizens and his nation's survival.

I'm sure you would understand a proportional response.
 
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