Can one say with honesty, "I am saved", if you do not live a life worthy of your calling as a Christian?

[bling]

What about those who claimed they are saved and later completely abandon the faith?

They might have been saved at a previous time, but due to being caught up in sin, they gave their inheritance away to satan.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That sounds a lot like what I wrote - trust and obey.

Really, the gospel gives Christians every reason to expect to be judged by both what they did and said as well as by what they believed. The gospel is not a message of hope for those who listen and do not obey.

The wonderful thing for us is that the Person who is going to judge us is also our Defence Lawyer. We are going to be found guilty on Judgment Day because we have sinned and broken God's Law, but Jesus is going to step up and say, "I have paid the penalty". What this means is that we will be acquitted, even though we were found guilty. Even if we are found to have fallen short of obedience, Jesus paid the price for that as well. The sad thing for many believers is that they underestimate the complete work that Jesus did for us on the Cross. They think that they have to pay part of the price through works of obedience in order to make some contribution to their salvation. But Jesus is a complete Saviour, and He has paid the full price of the debt we owe to God, and therefore has taken the full penalty for all our sins, past, present and future, on Himself. This is why Christianity for us is joy unspeakable and full of glory, because those who are set free by Christ are certainly free indeed!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

They might have been saved at a previous time, but due to being caught up in sin, they gave their inheritance away to satan.

If they were prepared to give their inheritance away to Satan, then it shows that they were never saved in the first place. I don't think that those people were shown the true Gospel of Christ and given a full appreciation of what Jesus did for them when He suffered and died on the Cross for them. Maybe they went forward in a meeting and prayed the sinner's prayer and then believed they were saved but never went on to fully realise and appreciate what they were saved from, and the great debt they had which was paid through Jesus giving Himself for them. That goes along with what John said. "If they went away from us, it means they were never with us." Anyone can put on a Christian "badge" and say they are saved and wear the right clothes, go to the right church, and speak the right words, but without a change of heart toward Christ, all they have is religion and not genuine salvation.

 

[RileyG]

A genuinely saved believer will never abandon the faith. Anyone can claim salvation but God knows the hearts.

How do you know if someone is genuinely saved?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The wonderful thing for us is that the Person who is going to judge us is also our Defence Lawyer.

I think that the last judgement will not be like a USA courtroom drama.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

How do you know if someone is genuinely saved?

We don't. That's the point of the parable of the tares and the wheat. It is not our job to discern who is saved and who is not. That will be the job of the angels when they divide the sheep from the goats on the Day of Judgment. In the meantime, we have to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. We can't go on outward appearances. There have been too many false accusations by people who think they know more than God about who is saved and who isn't. If we decide to judge people, God will exact the same judgment on us. None of us are righteous in ourselves. We all have faults and failings and so our judgment of one another is always faulty.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think that the last judgement will not be like a USA courtroom drama.

It will be a time of accounting. The Scripture says that we all have to give our account to God. We get clues from the parable of the talents, and the parable of the wicked servant who was forgiven of an enormous debt but required the repayment of a much smaller debt by a fellow servant. If after having been forgiven of sinfulness that required an eternal penalty, and then accuse fellow believers and bring judgment on them, one might find himself in hot water when he has to stand before God at the Judgment. Therefore it is always wise to give our fellow believers the benefit of the doubt regardless of the appearances.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It will be a time of accounting. The Scripture says that we all have to give our account to God. We get clues from the parable of the talents, and the parable of the wicked servant who was forgiven of an enormous debt but required the repayment of a much smaller debt by a fellow servant. If after having been forgiven of sinfulness that required an eternal penalty, and then accuse fellow believers and bring judgment on them, one might find himself in hot water when he has to stand before God at the Judgment. Therefore it is always wise to give our fellow believers the benefit of the doubt regardless of the appearances.

Matthew 25:31-48 gives an excellent summary of the way the Last Judgement will be conducted.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No, of course not. We prove that the Holy Spirit is not indwelling us if we return to serious sin/deeds of the flesh. In that case we've already turned away from Him, despite any profession of so called faith or belief that we're saved.

It is interesting that you say "we" when you refer to proving that the Holy Spirit is not indwelling if one returns to serious sin/deeds of the flesh. This is a ploy to ensure that we put everyone, including ourselves, in the same boat; but the real meaning is that "I am okay, but I am not sure about you." The question I have is what criteria do you have to make a judgment whether a person is a true believer or not. In my many years of experience, I have come across some who think they have a special type of discernment to separate the sheep from the goats before the time. They play god in the way they judge others because by appearances they don't come up to the ideal level of holiness that should exist in a believer.

For this reason one should carefully consider the parable of the wicked servant. We have been forgiven of an eternal debt to God that we could never repay. Through God's grace, Jesus has totally removed the penalty for sin from us. We did nothing to deserve it and there is nothing we could have done to contribute to it. When one "discerns" that a fellow believer is not genuinely saved because he seems not to be as holy as one thinks he should be, then one is putting himself in the frame of the wicked servant, who having been forgiven of a massive debt, goes to a fellow servant and roughly requires payment of a much smaller debt.

Therefore, because I have been forgiven of a massive debt, I always give every professing believer the benefit of the doubt, even if they appear to be committing some serious sins.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Matthew 25:31-48 gives an excellent summary of the way the Last Judgement will be conducted.

The reason why I don't go along with pre-judging people for any reason is that in my 50 odd years of being associated with churches, I have seen tragic harm done to good people by ultra "holier than thou" religious zealots spiritually abusing them by dealing according to their faults and failings rather than showing the love of Christ to them. Paul said that he was not going to allow any person to judge him according to the nature of his faith; in fact, he refused to judge himself, but rather leave the judgment to his Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. It was because of some of these religious zealots spiritually abusing people that I left the Charismatic movement and ended up spending the last 23 years being Presbyterian where I encountered no religious zealots at all.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The reason why I don't go along with pre-judging people for any reason is that in my 50 odd years of being associated with churches, I have seen tragic harm done to good people by ultra "holier than thou" religious zealots spiritually abusing them by dealing according to their faults and failings rather than showing the love of Christ to them. Paul said that he was not going to allow any person to judge him according to the nature of his faith; in fact, he refused to judge himself, but rather leave the judgment to his Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. It was because of some of these religious zealots spiritually abusing people that I left the Charismatic movement and ended up spending the last 23 years being Presbyterian where I encountered no religious zealots at all.

I was a Presbyterian some decades ago and it was not a, "holier than thou", movement back then. Catholics seem fairly tolerant and easy going.

 

[fhansen]

It is interesting that you say "we" when you refer to proving that the Holy Spirit is not indwelling if one returns to serious sin/deeds of the flesh. This is a ploy to ensure that we put everyone, including ourselves, in the same boat; but the real meaning is that "I am okay, but I am not sure about you." The question I have is what criteria do you have to make a judgment whether a person is a true believer or not. In my many years of experience, I have come across some who think they have a special type of discernment to separate the sheep from the goats before the time. They play god in the way they judge others because by appearances they don't come up to the ideal level of holiness that should exist in a believer.

For this reason one should carefully consider the parable of the wicked servant. We have been forgiven of an eternal debt to God that we could never repay. Through God's grace, Jesus has totally removed the penalty for sin from us. We did nothing to deserve it and there is nothing we could have done to contribute to it. When one "discerns" that a fellow believer is not genuinely saved because he seems not to be as holy as one thinks he should be, then one is putting himself in the frame of the wicked servant, who having been forgiven of a massive debt, goes to a fellow servant and roughly requires payment of a much smaller debt.

Therefore, because I have been forgiven of a massive debt, I always give every professing believer the benefit of the doubt, even if they appear to be committing some serious sins.

Well, that was an exercise in pure presumption. "We" means "we", all of us. And, yes, sin will continue to separate us from God. Jesus died not only to forgive you of your sins but to take them away and overcome them in you. That's why you're no longer condemned for them.

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:3-4, 12-14

So...we must examine ourselves, to see if we're living as children of God should live. Otherwise we're fooling ourselves and each other with a false gospel. And that attitude, of not being overly-confident of our status before God, produces only humility, not holier than thou sentiments which I've seen in plenty of some spheres I've moved in or observed

 

[fhansen]

Do we have to continue striving for perfection so we no longer have faults and shortcomings, or do we put our trust in Jesus who is perfect for us and covers our imperfections with His pure righteousness. The fact is that all sin is serious and leads to death. A thief is a thief regardless of the value of what he stole. A liar is a liar regardless of whether he told a white lie or a serious one. An adulterer is an adulterer just because he looks at someone with lust. A murderer is one who merely hates another person. And yet we do all these things every day to some degree, and we have to continually confess our sin and ask forgiveness. So, if sinless perfection is the standard of salvation, then we have to ask, "Who then, can be saved?"

But the Scripture says, "By grace I am saved, through faith in Christ, not of myself, but is the gift of God to me; not of works lest any should boast." So, being saved by grace is not due to anything I can do myself. I can't contribute anything to my salvation in Christ, other than to put my trust in His perfection and His death of the Cross to take the penalty for my sin and to give me eternal life. There is nothing I can do to earn my salvation. D Martyn Lloyd-Jones said, "There is no such person as a good Christian. We are all vile people saved by the grace of God."

We lose our salvation not by falling into serious sin, but by rejecting Christ and trusting in one's self to somehow get to heaven.

If we fall into serious sin, we've already rejected Christ and failed to trust Him. The gospel has always been about turning from sin/the world and to God by His power, His grace. If we remain vile then we mock the work of God and the sacrifice of His Son. What a joke, one that only satan would appreciate, if Christianity became an excuse to praise remaining vile and in our sins while making becoming righteous a source of pride. God created no one to be a sinner to begin with, and only He can do in us what the Law cannot. That's what Jer 31:33-34 is all about.

Man's whole problem is that he's alienated from, not in union with, God, and Jesus came to reconcile that unjust disunity, so that we become 'His people' (Jer 31:33), as we are meant to be, so that He can do what we cannot do on our own, apart from Him: He will "put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts", also Jer 31:33.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

D Martyn Lloyd-Jones said, "There is no such person as a good Christian. We are all vile people saved by the grace of God."

I think that Dr Martin Lloyd Jones was wrong, but he will know now, having been dead for many years.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I was a Presbyterian some decades ago and it was not a, "holier than thou", movement back then. Catholics seem fairly tolerant and easy going.

When I left my last Charismatic church because of the judgmentalism, legalism and gossiping, as well as the narrow teaching parameters (more about miracles, healing, living according to the rules, etc.) I joined an Anglican church and found that they were much more tolerant and accepting. I was accepted as one of the group the first night I was there. Also, the church was not run on the basis of personality. No one worried about who was preaching on Sunday, because it was either the vicar or the curate. When the curate visited us (first time we had ever had a pastoral visit from a church) he told us that in three weeks we would be as mad as the rest of them, and he was right!

My attitude toward "holier than thou" people is that they are usually taller than me, and when I look up to them I get a pain in the neck!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well, that was an exercise in pure presumption. "We" means "we", all of us. And, yes, sin will continue to separate us from God. Jesus died not only to forgive you of your sins but to take them away and overcome them in you. That's why you're no longer condemned for them.

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:3-4, 12-14

So...we must examine ourselves, to see if we're living as children of God should live. Otherwise we're fooling ourselves and each other with a false gospel. And that attitude, of not being overly-confident of our status before God, produces only humility, not holier than thou sentiments which I've seen in plenty of some spheres I've moved in or observed

I think it was my way of saying, "Speak for yourself!"

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think that Dr Martin Lloyd Jones was wrong, but he will know now, having been dead for many years.

Are you saying that he was wrong when he said that we are saved by the grace of God?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Are you saying that he was wrong when he said that we are saved by the grace of God?

The quote that you gave and to which I replied was ... "D Martyn Lloyd-Jones said, "There is no such person as a good Christian. We are all vile people saved by the grace of God."" he was wrong, there are good Christians, and some good people are saved by grace, Enoch, Job, Blessed Mary all come to mind.

 

[fhansen]

I think it was my way of saying, "Speak for yourself!"

Alright, but for those interested in the historic teachings of Christianity, my positions also generally reflect and are consistent with those.,

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Can a person say with honesty, "I am saved", if you do not live a life worthy of your calling as a Christian?

im careful about this kind of view.

Some religion is running away from hell. Fear based. This isn't true service to God and can't really yield a true love of god. I think it's needs to be dropped for a much higher standard ...
Running towards God.
I think the fear religion needs to die off and handover to a proper blooming of "running towards God" instead of running away from hell.