Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Landon Caeli]

Let's agree that eliminating the resident Palestinians would be genocide.

Indeed I agree.

 

[FireDragon76]

Perspective - When war goes underground: Understanding Hamas's tunnel network

An author whose book has become a reference for those trying to understand Hamas's tunnel network and its impact on the current war has told FRANCE 24 that Israel must eventually enter them to ensure…

www.france24.com

An author whose book has become a reference for those trying to understand Hamas's tunnel network and its impact on the current war has told FRANCE 24 that Israel must eventually enter them to ensure their destruction. Daphné Richemond-Barak started her book "Underground Warfare" 10 years ago, when one of the first large Hamas tunnels into Israel was discovered. Her book documents the use of tunnels in many conflicts, including Vietnam and even World War I. She spoke to us [FRANCE 24] in Perspective. ​

I don't comprehend how extensive the tunnel system in Gaza is but they've had 56 years to build it and improve on it. If the Israelis collapse the tunnels, they may very well kill the hostages in them.

The Israeli military operates under the Hannibal Doctrine, which is widely interpreted by low-level commanders as making that an acceptable outcome. The practical and prevailing interpretation of the Hannibal Doctrine is on preventing Israel's enemies from successfully using hostages for political or military purposes, even if it involves the death of the hostages.

 

[Landon Caeli]

That's not an achievable goal. The US tried to destroy the Taliban and that didn't work out, either. Hamas and Islamic Jihad are ideologies that persist as long as the conditions are right. Israel playing whack-a-mole with JDAM's in Gaza at the civilians' expense isn't just.

At the same time, giving up and calling the battle against terrorism a lost cause - means terrorism wins.

Imagine if everyone across the world surrendered to terrorism. That's what you seem to be advocating.

 

[FireDragon76]

At the same time, giving up and calling the battle against terrorism a lost cause - means terrorism wins.

Imagine if everyone across the world surrendered to terrorism. That's what you seem to be advocating.

From a high level perspective, terrorism is a political problem and requires political solutions. Even the US invasion of Afghanistan ended in a political solution. Using our military to bust in doors in the middle of the night to play "whack-a-mole" just alienated rural peasants from the Kabul government, making peace with the Taliban look like an acceptable compromise to the vast majority of the country.

 

[Landon Caeli]

From a high level perspective, terrorism is a political problem and requires political solutions. Even the US invasion of Afghanistan ended in a political solution. Using our military to bust in doors in the middle of the night to play "whack-a-mole" just alienated rural peasants from the Kabul government, making peace with the Taliban look like an acceptable compromise to the vast majority of the country.

And what evidence do you have that political initiatives are effective in preventing terrorism?

I see no such evidence.

 

[Landon Caeli]

It bothers me too, that within politics, the concept of surrender seems to be the most popular political solution amongst the progressive far left... In far too many scenarios.

Is having strength and resolve really that toxic of an idea?

 

[essentialsaltes]

...People act like the terrorists get a free pass because it's expected

Nobody's protecting Hamas or shedding tears over dead terrorists.

I think it's anti-semitic to hold Jews to a higher standard,

Someone brought up the killing of bin Laden, but the US did not just drop a big bomb on his house, in part because of the civilian casualties that would ensue. I want Israel to abide by the same standard, viz. the accepted international rules for what is and isn't acceptable collateral damage, and the level of due care being placed on that concern.

 

[FireDragon76]

And what evidence do you have that political initiatives are effective in preventing terrorism?

I see no such evidence.

It works all the time, like in Northern Ireland. The Troubles didn't end because every paramilitary was killed, but simply because there was a political settlement that changed the conditions people were living under, making terrorism less attractive or relevant.

 

[wing2000]

If one country attacks another country, that doesn't justify destroying the other country in an act of revenge.
The laws of war permit a defending nation to eliminate the capacity of the aggressor nation to pose a military threat (something Netenyahu could have easily done with more border security instead of using the Israeli military to bully Palestinians near illegal settlements on the West Bank), it doesn't justify any act of aggression in the name of retaliation.

If I'm an Israeli citizen, I am certainly not going to trust "more border security" to keep me safe going foward. The Isarali government assumed their high tech border security system was sufficient and badly miscalculated Hamas' intentions (ignoring military drills, removing signals intel monitoring etc). After all of that, I would insist, as most Israeli's are, that Hamas' military capability be completely destroyed.

The challenge is destroying the Hamas undeground network while trying to minimize the loss of life.

 

[wing2000]

It works all the time, like in Northern Ireland. The Troubles didn't end because every paramilitary was killed, but simply because there was a political settlement that changed the conditions people were living under, making terrorism less attractive or relevant.

Has the Hamas leadership hinted at anything other than the complete destruction of the Israeli state?

 

[FireDragon76]

Has the Hamas leadership hinted at anything other than the complete destruction of the Israeli state?

I'm not implying Israel should negotiate with Hamas. However, the Netenyahu government has made a political decision to effectively destroy any possibility of legitimate Palestinian alternatives, by sidelining the Palestinian Authority and working to undermine it.

 

[Landon Caeli]

It works all the time, like in Northern Ireland. The Troubles didn't end because every paramilitary was killed, but simply because there was a political settlement that changed the conditions people were living under, making terrorism less attractive or relevant.

That would mean the offering Palestine gifts in order to appease their anger. But they might reject those gifts, or perhaps take them, and still continue on the path of terrorism.

It's quite a risky gamble.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT

This thread had a clean up of off topic posts and the posts that responded to the off topic posts. Please stick to the topic in the OP. ​

 

[wing2000]

I'm not implying Israel should negotiate with Hamas. However, the Netenyahu government has made a political decision to effectively destroy any possibility of legitimate Palestinian alternatives, by sidelining the Palestinian Authority and working to undermine it.

....you still need to remove Hamas from the picture. I can't see a political solution until that happens.

 

[durangodawood]

....you still need to remove Hamas from the picture. I can't see a political solution until that happens.

Yes but...... I do take the point that hamas is as much or more an ideology than a specific group with an org chart. The ideology will persist without a political solution and Israel will simply have a forever war vs a stateless and frankly oppressed people.

Or Israel could just drive everyone out of Gaza altogether.

 

[Landon Caeli]

...I'm sure some do want to leave. Someone needs to open a door for them.

There's a possible "political" solution right there - whether we like it or not, it is one.

 

[wing2000]

Yes but...... I do take the point that hamas is as much or more an ideology than a specific group with an org chart. The ideology will persist without a political solution and they will simply have a forever war vs a stateless and frankly oppressed people.

Or Israel could just drive everyone out of Gaza altogether.

I'm afraid the Hamas ideology will only be strengthened....an (inevtiable?) outcome of destroying Hamas military capability? Looking back, could Israel taken additional steps to separate Hamas from the Palestinian civilians? While Israel has taken some steps to warn civilians (told to "go south", dropping leaflets, calling residents, etc), their credibility was hurt by not providing a safe zone for Palestinians to go (the South was bombed too). And to expect hospitals to evacuate in an active war zone, while providng no means to do so, is just not realistic and inhumane.
[Notably, I didn't see countries such as Egypt stepping up to offer a safe haven either].

 

[essentialsaltes]

...I'm sure some do want to leave.

The many living in refugee camps would like to return to the homes their families were driven out of or fled from in 1948.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I wonder if any Westerners here feel like we can't afford another Nakba.

 

[JosephZ]

And what evidence do you have that political initiatives are effective in preventing terrorism?

I see no such evidence.

Terrorist groups end for two major reasons: Members decide to adopt nonviolent tactics and join the political process (43 percent), or local law-enforcement agencies arrest or kill key members of the group (40 percent). Military force has rarely been the primary reason for the end of terrorist groups (7 percent), and few groups since 1968 have achieved victory (10 percent).

Most terrorist groups that have ended did so by pursuing their goals through politics. The possibility of a political solution is linked to a key variable: the breadth of terrorist goals. Most terrorist groups that end because of politics seek narrow policy goals, such as policy change, territorial change, or regime change.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7249/mg741rc