God's forknowledge and predistinaiton

[Carl Emerson]

Agape love by definition is God's love ... not human.

When the Lord interviewed Peter He asked Peter 3 times "Peter ,Peter, lovest thou Me?" til Peter was grieved. yes he loved the Lord, as best as he was able ... but it falls short of divine love.

We have to be a little bit humble about it and say with John "it's not that we loved God but that He loved us .... "

I not only say my love falls short but yours does too.

So you now agree that the text in Luke 6:32 in the Greek is indeed Agape.

However you seem to suggest that Agape in Greek does not always indicate God's Love ? Correct ???

We are told in 1 Cor 13 that without this Agape Love our actions come to nothing.

Yet you seem to claim we don't have this love.

When the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us - does He leave the Love of God behind ???

God is Love - Agape

Surely when He comes to live within us, His Love - Agape indwells us - Yes ???

His Love then works through us motivating our action, achieving His purpose, and the result is eternal reward for us.

BUT... back to the passage in Luke

Scripture says in Luke 6.32 that even sinners agape those who agape them.

But you say this is not God's Love.

So from your point of view, when we read Agape in the text it does not mean God's Love when you struggle with the meaning it seems.

So what is then the Truth - the text or what we feel comfortable with ?

 

[biblelesson]

there is human love ... I would not stake my life on it but it is strong. But we are called to love with the love wherewith Christ loved us, that's divine love. We don't have any. But God has poured His love into our hearts.

This is nothing more than a claim, it’s not biblically supported by the scriptures. The scriptures make no distinction on types of love, only the object of focus in which we are placing our love whether it be evil, worldly things or God and others. There’s no mention of this type of love or that type of love.

Study this scripture and you will see the difference between worldly love and Devine love: 1 Peter 1:22-23 KJV,

22 “Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:”

23 “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”

 

[BNR32FAN]

Study this scripture and you will see the difference between worldly love and Devine love: 1 Peter 1:22-23 KJV,

22 “Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:”

23 “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”

what is an “unfeigned love” it’s a sincere or true love, an insincere or false love is not love at all. Unfeigned means genuine or sincere, not divine.

 

[biblelesson]

Study this scripture and you will see the difference between worldly love and Devine love: 1 Peter 1:22-23 KJV,

22 “Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:”

23 “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”

what is an “unfeigned love” it’s a sincere or true love, an insincere or false love is not love at all. Unfeigned means genuine or sincere, not divine.

1 Peter 1:22-23 KJV is saying our souls are purified in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love.

This Spirit is the Holy Spirit Who does the work of purification and sanctification in us. The Holy Spirit comes with fire, Matthew 3:11 KJV, which is a symbol of purification. When we come to Christ we are given the Holy Spirit Who work in us.

At Jesus death, God crucified our old man with Jesus, so we are buried with Jesus, Romans 6:3-4 KJV, Romans 6:6 KJV, Galatians 2:20 KJV.

God crucified the old man which is our self man, or carnal nature. The nature of man could only produce a corrupt version of love, so God put us into Christ death Who became our substitute. Therefore whatever emotion we possessed prior to coming to Christ, is dead,
Colossians 3:3 KJV, “For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.”

We now live in Christ. While our old man remain crucified on the cross, we were raised with Christ to walk in the new man. This is why the Bible tells us to put off the old man, and put on the new man, Ephesians 4:22-24. We as believers walk in the new man, Ephesians 4:24 KJV, Colossians 3:10 KJV. This new man is our new birth, 1 Peter 1:23 KJV, which is the Spirit given to us by God unto purification and unto sanctification that we might walk holy before God, Ephesians 5:26-27 KJV, and pure love. Something we were not able to do, and can never do without the Holy Spirit.

We cannot walk in unfeigned love without the Holy Spirit. The love we are given in the Spirit is God’s Devine love.

 

[Billy Evmur]

So you now agree that the text in Luke 6:32 in the Greek is indeed Agape.

However you seem to suggest that Agape in Greek does not always indicate God's Love ? Correct ???

We are told in 1 Cor 13 that without this Agape Love our actions come to nothing.

Yet you seem to claim we don't have this love.

When the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us - does He leave the Love of God behind ???

God is Love - Agape

Surely when He comes to live within us, His Love - Agape indwells us - Yes ???

His Love then works through us motivating our action, achieving His purpose, and the result is eternal reward for us.

BUT... back to the passage in Luke

Scripture says in Luke 6.32 that even sinners agape those who agape them.

But you say this is not God's Love.

So from your point of view, when we read Agape in the text it does not mean God's Love when you struggle with the meaning it seems.

So what is then the Truth - the text or what we feel comfortable with ?

I say it is a received love, just like we receive the joy of the Lord, His peace comes upon us.

The natural man receiveth not the things of God nor can he.

 

[Billy Evmur]

This is nothing more than a claim, it’s not biblically supported by the scriptures. The scriptures make no distinction on types of love, only the object of focus in which we are placing our love whether it be evil, worldly things or God and others. There’s no mention of this type of love or that type of love.

The natural man receiveth not the things of God neither can he.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I say it is a received love, just like we receive the joy of the Lord, His peace comes upon us.

The natural man receiveth not the things of God nor can he.

Of course this is correct when referring to the Elect.

However I believe the matter of God working in common grace has been unappreciated.

If Common Grace was withdrawn from humanity in general, chaos would result, family life would fall appart, humanity would decline into an animal state as man would no longer be in the image of God.
Part of being in the image of God is that He is in living fellowship with Himself, so we are lkewise gregarious and bonded in family.

So when Scriprure refers to unbelievers loving one-another, this is by God's Common Grace. which is part of His image in mankind.

So God's Love is working on a variety of levels.

Hence the verse "even sinners Love those who Love them" (Agape Love) is understandable in the context of Common Grace - and we dont have to deny the plain reading of the Greek Text.

But the Elect experience His Love on an entirely different level as they are powerfully indwelled by the fullness His Love and commissioned to witness this Love to the world.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The natural man receiveth not the things of God neither can he.

Yes read the next 5 verses.

“But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2‬:‭14‬-‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Was Paul saying that these Corinthian believers are incapable of believing or repenting?

 

[Billy Evmur]

Yes read the next 5 verses.

“But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2‬:‭14‬-‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Was Paul saying that these Corinthian believers are incapable of believing or repenting?

they Corinthians were born again, as folks who were born again they could either walk in the Spirit or walk after the manner of the flesh. Only born again folks have the ability to do that.

Unsaved people can be corralled into doing what is right. .... the credit for that is not theirs.

 

[BNR32FAN]

they Corinthians were born again, as folks who were born again they could either walk in the Spirit or walk after the manner of the flesh. Only born again folks have the ability to do that.

Unsaved people can be corralled into doing what is right. .... the credit for that is not theirs.

What do you mean they can be “corralled into doing what’s right”? Why can’t they do what’s right by their own free will?

 

[Billy Evmur]

What do you mean they can be “corralled into doing what’s right”? Why can’t they do what’s right by their own free will?

Paul says we were in bondage, slaves of sin, followers of the prince of the air, no free will there.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Paul says we were in bondage, slaves of sin, followers of the prince of the air, no free will there.

Those statements don’t indicate that we didn’t have free will, you’re basically saying that it’s God’s fault that we were sinners. Because according to Calvin we can’t refrain from sin unless God enables us to. Furthermore he teaches that we have no choice but to sin. Free will is the very reason why we are held responsible for our sins because we have a choice, we have the ability to refrain from sin. Everyone has made decisions not to sin even before coming to Christ. Nobody lies with every word coming out of their mouth, nobody steals everything they come into contact with, nobody attacks every person they come into contact with. This is because we’re constantly making decisions everyday whether to sin or not regardless of whether or not we’re saved. Even after we come to Christ that hasn’t changed. The only difference now that we’re saved is we have the word of God and the Holy Spirit urging us not to sin and our love for God that makes us want to be obedient and do the things that please Him Calvin’s theology is comparable to a parent punishing a newborn baby for pooping their diaper when the parent knew it would do that before it was born and it has no other alternative but to poop in it’s diaper. God is not ridiculous, He is just and loving.

 

[biblelesson]

Those statements don’t indicate that we didn’t have free will, you’re basically saying that it’s God’s fault that we were sinners. Because according to Calvin we can’t refrain from sin unless God enables us to. Furthermore he teaches that we have no choice but to sin. Free will is the very reason why we are held responsible for our sins because we have a choice, we have the ability to refrain from sin. Everyone has made decisions not to sin even before coming to Christ.

Jesus died for us on the cross because we were sinners, in bondage to sin, under the curse of the law. There was no way we could refrain from sin because our very nature (Ademic nature) was corrupt, Romans 8:21 KJV. It doesn’t matter if we chose not to do a sinful act, we were all still under sin. This is why Christ died; to redeem us from the curse of the law, Galatians 3:13 KJV, to save us from our sins, Matthew 1:21 KJV. We are saved by God’s grace - not of ourselves, Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV. We could not save ourselves because no “so called righteous act” on our part could make us righteous before God. Only the righteousness of Christ can make us righteousness! Jesus became our substitute - the Just (Jesus) for the unjust (Us), 1 Peter 3:18 KJV, 1 Peter 2:24 KJV.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus died for us on the cross because we were sinners, in bondage to sin, under the curse of the law. There was no way we could refrain from sin because our very nature (Ademic nature) was corrupt, Romans 8:21 KJV. It doesn’t matter if we chose not to do a sinful act, we were all still under sin. This is why Christ died; to redeem us from the curse of the law, Galatians 3:13 KJV, to save us from our sins, Matthew 1:21 KJV. We are saved by God’s grace - not of ourselves, Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV. We could not save ourselves because no “so called righteous act” on our part could make us righteous before God. Only the righteousness of Christ can make us righteousness! Jesus became our substitute - the Just (Jesus) for the unjust (Us), 1 Peter 3:18 KJV, 1 Peter 2:24 KJV.

Us choosing to repent and humble ourselves to God has nothing to do with saving ourselves because it still requires Jesus’ sacrifice. So you can’t actually say that anyone who has repented and humbled himself to God has saved himself, that’s a false label because Christ’s sacrifice and atonement is the grace that is required for salvation. No one is simply saved solely based on their repentance without Christ’s atonement, therefore grace is still required in order for them to receive salvation. The main problem with Calvin’s theology is it is slanderous to God’s character. Calvin teaches that God isn’t just and He isn’t impartial which is contradictory to the scriptures. In Calvin’s theology God is choosing some over others while none are worthy of His election. In Calvin’s theology God has implemented impossible expectations knowing that no one could possibly meet those expectations than punishing them in the lake of fire for all eternity for failing to meet His impossible expectations. That is not just. And not only that He is playing favoritism by choosing to allow some to repent and believe while not allowing others to be capable of doing so which is showing partiality. This is contradictory to the qualities of God’s character that are presented in the scriptures.

 

[biblelesson]

Us choosing to repent and humble ourselves to God has nothing to do with saving ourselves because it still requires Jesus’ sacrifice. So you can’t actually say that anyone who has repented and humbled himself to God has saved himself, that’s a false label because Christ’s sacrifice and atonement is the grace that is required for salvation.

I never said what you are arguing against. However salvation is offered to us by God, in Christ. The gospel explains the process for salvation by grace. So we need to do what the Bible tells us to do, that is to believe on Christ, that he died and rose again, we will be saved, 1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV, Act 16:31 KJV.

No one is simply saved solely based on their repentance without Christ’s atonement, therefore grace is still required in order for them to receive salvation.

Christ has already atoned for the sins of the world. Grace has already been established - it is the offering of God’s Son to save us from our sins. All we need to do is believe on Christ, repent, humble ourselves, and be baptize and we will come under this grace.

The main problem with Calvin’s theology is it is slanderous to God’s character. Calvin teaches that God isn’t just and He isn’t impartial which is contradictory to the scriptures. In Calvin’s theology God is choosing some over others while none are worthy of His election. In Calvin’s theology God has implemented impossible expectations knowing that no one could possibly meet those expectations than punishing them in the lake of fire for all eternity for failing to meet His impossible expectations. That is not just.

Who is Calvin? If we were to read the gospel, all of the epistles, we will understand God’s salvation plan. We don’t need to keep referring to someone else’s theology, nor do we need to compare what the Bible says vs what someone else says. Again, who is Calvin? There is a lot of bad theology. Only the Bible is true, so we must ignore what opposes the truth in the Bible.

 

[jonojim1337]

There's no such thing as keeping Christ's commandments and having him or the holy spirit manifest in one's life. First of all that is works salvation second of all why do we have instance such as Paul himself who was on his way to murder Christians when Christ appeared to him. This is complete bollocks the Bible contradicts itself.

 

[jonojim1337]

It makes more sense that God creates some pots for noble purposes and some for ignoble, simply because he is an ass.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I never said what you are arguing against. However salvation is offered to us by God, in Christ. The gospel explains the process for salvation by grace. So we need to do what the Bible tells us to do, that is to believe on Christ, that he died and rose again, we will be saved, 1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV, Act 16:31 KJV.


Christ has already atoned for the sins of the world. Grace has already been established - it is the offering of God’s Son to save us from our sins. All we need to do is believe on Christ, repent, humble ourselves, and be baptize and we will come under this grace.




Who is Calvin? If we were to read the gospel, all of the epistles, we will understand God’s salvation plan. We don’t need to keep referring to someone else’s theology, nor do we need to compare what the Bible says vs what someone else says. Again, who is Calvin? There is a lot of bad theology. Only the Bible is true, so we must ignore what opposes the truth in the Bible.

John Calvin is a 16th century theologian who taught that everyone’s fate has been determined before creation and only those whom God chose before creation can be saved. Everyone whom God did not choose before creation can’t be saved no matter what they do. They can’t repent, and they can’t believe because God hasn’t enabled them to do so. The only reason anyone is able to repent and believe is because God has not only enabled them but He has predestined them so ultimately man has absolutely no say or any kind of control whatsoever about his salvation. Basically either God chose you and your destined to be saved or God did not choose you and your destined to the lake of fire, you don’t actually have any say or any control over it and there’s nothing you can do to change it. That’s what John Calvin taught and there’s a lot of people in this thread that actually believe it. I apologize if I have mistaken your post as being supportive of Calvin’s theology it was not my intention to misrepresent you my friend.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Christ has already atoned for the sins of the world. Grace has already been established - it is the offering of God’s Son to save us from our sins. All we need to do is believe on Christ, repent, humble ourselves, and be baptize and we will come under this grace.

Yes I agree with this theology although I’m not convinced that water baptism is necessary for salvation but other than that I agree with what you posted here.

 

[Berserk]

2 erroneous assumptions here based on ignorance of Greek:
(1) In both Hebrew ("amunah") and Greek ("pistis") the word translated "faith" also means "faithfulness."
So we are saved by a grace-based way of being (godly motivation and core desires, etc.), not by mental belief in the Gospel or mere trust. That insight is the key to resolving the apparent contradiction between Paul and James.
(2) In first century Greek secular Greek usage, "agape" is usually applied to human love. So "agape" does not mean "divine love." That false belief is based on the fact that "agape" is often applied to divine love in the NT.