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Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical (Please read OP before posting).

Der Alte

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This is date of celebration of the worship, Sōl Invictus on December 25th can be seen here by Oxford.
"Its dedication day was 25 December."
You either did not read or deliberately misrepresented the Oxford quote. The dedication date of the temple of Sol is NOT the day of worship or birth of either Mithras or Sol Invictus.
" Sol had a magnificent temple on the campus Agrippae. Its dedication day was 25 December."
You may now quit responding to me.
 
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Der Alte

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I have used Scripture to refute your claims of your view of how sources always need to be by scholars. Peter was a fisherman!!!! He was not a scholar!!!! So to say that some non-scholar today cannot tell the truth and be accepted is incorrect.
You have NOT refuted anything I posted with scripture or anything else.. Do you read Hebrew or Greek, do you have a degree in either language? Do you have a degree in church history? When I quote Greek or Hebrew or church history e.g. I quote scholars. My unsupported opinions means diddly as do yours.
 
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BNR32FAN

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No. A deception is not always a lie.
A lie is saying words that are completely untrue.

Take for example, Jesus did not reveal who He was to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:13-35).
He made them think He was just a stranger and not Jesus. What do you call that?

In John 10:22-39, Jesus made a claim to deity as God (John 10:30).
The Jews wanted to stone Jesus because of blasphemy because He made Himself to be God (John 10:31-33).
But Jesus deflects away from His claim to deity by telling the Jews, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" (John 10:34).
So Jesus was deflecting away from the fact that He was God to protect His mission obviously. What do you call that?

In John chapter 6, there were many disciples that stopped following Jesus (666. I mean, John 6:66). They misunderstood Jesus about His words in how they were to eat of His flesh and drink of His blood. Jesus did not chase after them to explain their own misunderstanding of His words. Jesus allowed them to believe their own false thinking. Jesus words could be interpreted in the way that the many disciples had chosen. Jesus did not set out to clarify. He allowed them to believe what they wanted from His words. What do you call that?

In Joshua 8, God gives instruction to deceive the armies of His enemies into thinking they could capture the Israelites in the city. So when the Israelites fled outside the city, in reality it was an ambush and there were more Israelite soldiers hiding outside the city to take the enemies by surprise as they ran out. What do you call that?

There are Old Testament verses that are Messianic prophecies. But by a normal reading If you were not aware of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection, these prophecies are not so readily recognizable.

God will send a strong delusion to wicked people who reject the truth that they may believe a lie (2 Thessalonians 2:11).
Again, this does not mean God is lying by doing this. Do you see the difference now?

Proverbs 25:2 says,
"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."
Rahab told the soldiers she didn’t know where they went and that if they perused them quickly they would overtake them. That’s two lies because she did know where they went and she also knew that if they left quickly they would not catch up to them since they were hiding on her roof.

Here’s your explanations in the next post
 
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BNR32FAN

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This is not a lie to say that she did not know where they were headed to (i.e. Their ultimate destination). For it was true that Rahab had no clue where the two spies were headed. The next part of her words may seem also like a lie, but they are not. For she said, "pursue after them quickly; for ye shall overtake them." (Joshua 2:5).
Again, taking these words a generic way can be interpreted as merely words of encouragement and not words of certainty that she was confident that her directions were going to truly help them. How so? Well, she is basically being like a cheerleader at this point. "You can do it, guys!" But she did not know if victory would be in their hands or not because she cannot predict the future. She is saying, "if you pursue or hunt for them quickly, you find them." "You can do it. Go guys." Just like a cheerleader cheers her team on to succeed (and yet she does not know the certainty of their success or not).

She did know where they were going, they weren’t going anywhere. The soldiers told her to bring out the men who have come to you.

“And the king of Jericho sent word to Rahab, saying, “Bring out the men who have come to you, who have entered your house, for they have come to search out all the land.””
‭‭Joshua‬ ‭2‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

And her reply was

“But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them, and she said, “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they were from. It came about when it was time to shut the gate at dark, that the men went out; I do not know where the men went. Pursue them quickly, for you will overtake them.””
‭‭Joshua‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The men had not gone out they were still hiding on the roof. She did know where they went, they went on top of her roof, and she knew that of they perused them they would not catch up with them. These were all lies.
 
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Strong in Him

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No. A deception is not always a lie.
A deception is not always a lie?
But when people dress up in a costume to pretend to be father Christmas, that is different?

The lie would be, "no, there really IS a father Christmas who flies through the air with a sleigh load of presents, being pulled by his flying reindeer, stopping at every single house, going down all their chimneys, eating all the mince pies, drinking ALL the sherry that is left out for him, leaving presents for the whole household and managing to get around the whole country in one night. I am just helping him out a little."
 
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Der Alte

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A deception is not always a lie?
But when people dress up in a costume to pretend to be father Christmas, that is different?
The lie would be, "no, there really IS a father Christmas who flies through the air with a sleigh load of presents, being pulled by his flying reindeer, stopping at every single house, going down all their chimneys, eating all the mince pies, drinking ALL the sherry that is left out for him, leaving presents for the whole household and managing to get around the whole country in one night. I am just helping him out a little."
I remember when my oldest, who is now 60+, was very young and very excited when he saw Santa and his sleigh being picked up by radar and being tracked across the USA on TV. I must admit at that time I did not dissuade him.
 
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Strong in Him

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I remember when my oldest, who is now 60+, was very young and very excited when he saw Santa and his sleigh being picked up by radar and being tracked across the USA on TV. I must admit at that time I did not dissuade him.
I wouldn't count that as a lie, though; just make believe, or fantasy.
Just the same as I wouldn't call "Cinderella" a lie.

If you continued the deception until he became an adult, that might have been more of a problem. :)
 
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Strong in Him

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Take for example, Jesus did not reveal who He was to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:13-35).
He made them think He was just a stranger and not Jesus. What do you call that?
He didn't MAKE them believe anything - they didn't recognise him. Like everyone else, they were not expecting the resurrection and were disappointed/sad.
 
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Der Alte

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He didn't MAKE them believe anything - they didn't recognise him. Like everyone else, they were not expecting the resurrection and were disappointed/sad.
Luke 24:15-16
(15) And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
(16) But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
Luke 24:31
(31) And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.​
 
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Strong in Him

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Think. They put the Christmas star (Which is basically a sun of another solar system) on top of the Christ-mass tree.
Not everyone does that - some put a fairy on top.
They got little lights (little stars or suns) all over the tree.
I would think no one thinks of them as little suns except you, who is trying to make a connection to the sun god.
(News Flash; the IS no sun god.)
Lights on a Christmas tree may be blue, green, red, orange, multicoloured - how many suns have you seen like that?

So it is not a coincidence that December 25th just so happens to be the same day that they worshiped a sun god back in Rome.
Some people don't even know that on December 25th we remember the birth of the Son of God - they are not going to know, or care, about the "birth" of some mythical Roman god.
I mean, folks put gifts around this Christ-mass idol tree.
a) Some do.
b) A tree is only an idol if you worship it.

They gave gifts and sacrifices to idols back in the day.
People of other religions gave sacrifices to idols - yes. They still do.
So?
Why imitate what they did?
No one is.

Pagan gods, like those mentioned in the OT, did not "demand" nice little gifts, wrapped up in paper - but the sacrifices of live human babies and children. Pagan gods "demanded" people show love through sex - which is why there were many temple prostitutes.
No one imitates them. The Israelites did; not any more.

It makes no sense.
It makes no sense that you think that we, your fellow Christians, worship trees, adopt pagan influences and, when we try to explain and correct you, dismiss the arguments with "well you will have to answer to God."
So of course folks will not see it.
We don't "see" what you're saying, because it's nonsense.
 
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She did know where they were going, they weren’t going anywhere.
Yes, she knew they were not going to stay in the city forever. They were going to gather info as spies. Hmmm, spies. Doesn’t that imply deception that you think is always bad? Anyway, Rahab knew they were going back and they were not going to stay. Obviously that is why the spies were seeking to escape the city. They were spotted. Why would they hang out if they were discovered? Come on now. Put on that detective cap and let it sink in. So yes. They were going back to report what info. they gathered in the city as spies and that is exactly what we see them do. That is what spies do. Granted, I watched a lot of spy movies and TV series (like James Bond and Alias) so maybe you don’t know about how spies work. In short, Rahab was not clueless about what spies do. So she was telling the truth that she did not know where they were headed back to. She did not know where the Israelite HQ was. This is what she was referring to, and thus it was not a lie.


The soldiers told her to bring out the men who have come to you.

“And the king of Jericho sent word to Rahab, saying, “Bring out the men who have come to you, who have entered your house, for they have come to search out all the land.””
‭‭Joshua‬ ‭2‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

And her reply was

“But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them, and she said, “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they were from. It came about when it was time to shut the gate at dark, that the men went out; I do not know where the men went. Pursue them quickly, for you will overtake them.””
‭‭Joshua‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The men had not gone out they were still hiding on the roof. She did know where they went, they went on top of her roof, and she knew that of they perused them they would not catch up with them. These were all lies.
From Rahab‘s perspective, if she rehearsed it in her mind properly in what she was going to say to the guards, she could be saying that at the time before the shutting of the gate, they went outside to her roof. Granted, she did not include these details of her hiding them on her roof and thus it was not untrue to say they went out before the gate was shut. They went out alright. They went out on top of her roof. She did not say where exactly they went out from. Granted, she knew that she had hidden these two spies on the top of her roof (i.e. they had went outside on the roof), but she did not know whether they stayed on top of her roof her not, and she did not know where they were ultimately or absolutely headed in regards to their end destination. Yes, she later found they were still on top of the roof, and she helped them escape. So again, there is no problem here, unless you want there to be one so you can justify lying under certain circumstances. Remember, Satan is the father of lies. Let that truth truly permeate your thinking, my friend.
 
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You either did not read or deliberately misrepresented the Oxford quote. The dedication date of the temple of Sol is NOT the day of worship or birth of either Mithras or Sol Invictus.
" Sol had a magnificent temple on the campus Agrippae. Its dedication day was 25 December."
You may now quit responding to me.
Your reading it wrong.

Even AI says this,

“Sol Invictus, Latin for "Unconquered Sun," was a Roman religious title and concept that referred to the sun god. Sol Invictus was a relatively late addition to the Roman pantheon, and it gained significant prominence during the later Roman Empire, particularly in the 3rd century CE.​
The worship of Sol Invictus was closely associated with the idea of an invincible and unconquerable sun, symbolizing strength, power, and endurance. It was also linked with the concept of the sun's rebirth and the lengthening of days after the winter solstice, which was a time of celebration in the Roman calendar.​
The festival of Sol Invictus was established by the Roman Emperor Aurelian in the 3rd century CE, and it was celebrated on December 25th, coinciding with the winter solstice. This date was chosen because it marked the point in the year when the days start getting longer, signifying the "rebirth" of the sun. It's worth noting that the celebration of December 25th as the birthday of Jesus Christ in Christianity became prominent later, and some scholars believe that the choice of this date may have been influenced by the pre-existing celebration of Sol Invictus.​
Sol Invictus was a syncretic deity, meaning that it absorbed elements from various other sun gods and deities, and its worship was part of a broader trend in the Roman Empire of combining and harmonizing different religious traditions.​
The worship of Sol Invictus gradually declined with the rise of Christianity, which became the dominant religion in the Roman Empire. However, some aspects of the imagery and symbolism associated with Sol Invictus can be seen as influencing certain aspects of Christian iconography and the timing of the celebration of Christmas.”​

Source:
 
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Der Alte

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Think. They put the Christmas star (Which is basically a sun of another solar system) on top of the Christ-mass tree. They got little lights (little stars or suns) all over the tree.
Wasn't there a star which guided wise men at the birth of Jesus?
So it is not a coincidence that December 25th just so happens to be the same day that they worshiped a sun god back in Rome.
Prove it. Credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence.
Jeremiah 10 says do not practice the ways of the heathen. Even if there was just a remote chance this was true, I would not want to play games and take that chance.
Then don't do it and get out of other people's business. I have been a Christian since LBJ was prez and I never heard most of this pagan nonsense until I joined this forum about 2 decades ago.

I mean, folks put gifts around this Christ-mass idol tree.
Prove it? Credible, verifiable, historical etc. evidence. Show us where any pagan society had anything like a decorated Christmas tree and gifts were placed around it? And while you are at it show that it was called a "Christ-mass idol tree." If you can't, then that statement is a lie!
They gave gifts and sacrifices to idols back in the day. While one may not regard the tree as an idol, it paints a picture of that practice by pagans. Why imitate what they did? It makes no sense. But again, I think the pleasure of wanting to be accepted by your family, and friends and the pleasure of the holiday is too strong to forsake such a holiday. So of course folks will not see it.
Right but Christmas gifts are to friends and family not a decorated tree. It ain't imitation unless people are doing exactly what some pagan societies did. Let us take another look at your out-of-context proof text.
Jeremiah 10:3-5
(3) For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
(4) They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
(5) They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.
Jeremiah 10:9
(9) Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.​
You omit vs. 9 because it shatters the tirade about decorated trees.
It doesn't take cunning men to decorate a tree. A kid can do it. Silver plates spread on a piece of wood makes it a statue and what is the significance of "blue and purple clothing"? Decorated trees did/do not have clothing purple or otherwise.
Purple was the color of royalty it was very expensive. It came from a small snail which lived in the Mediterranean sea and each snail only produced 2-3 drops of the purple dye.
 
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Der Alte

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Your reading it wrong.

Even AI says this,
“Sol Invictus, Latin for "Unconquered Sun," was a Roman religious title and concept that referred to the sun god. Sol Invictus was a relatively late addition to the Roman pantheon, and it gained significant prominence during the later Roman Empire, particularly in the 3rd century CE.
The worship of Sol Invictus was closely associated with the idea of an invincible and unconquerable sun, symbolizing strength, power, and endurance. It was also linked with the concept of the sun's rebirth and the lengthening of days after the winter solstice, which was a time of celebration in the Roman calendar.
The festival of Sol Invictus was established by the Roman Emperor Aurelian in the 3rd century CE, and it was celebrated on December 25th, coinciding with the winter solstice. This date was chosen because it marked the point in the year when the days start getting longer, signifying the "rebirth" of the sun. It's worth noting that the celebration of December 25th as the birthday of Jesus Christ in Christianity became prominent later, and some scholars believe that the choice of this date may have been influenced by the pre-existing celebration of Sol Invictus.
Sol Invictus was a syncretic deity, meaning that it absorbed elements from various other sun gods and deities, and its worship was part of a broader trend in the Roman Empire of combining and harmonizing different religious traditions.
The worship of Sol Invictus gradually declined with the rise of Christianity, which became the dominant religion in the Roman Empire. However, some aspects of the imagery and symbolism associated with Sol Invictus can be seen as influencing certain aspects of Christian iconography and the timing of the celebration of Christmas.”

Source:
You are kidding right? I read nothing wrong. Here you are quoting from an anonymous AI chat group. None of this anonymous stuff negates the fact that the post I quoted said "Sol had a magnificent temple on the campus Agrippae. Its dedication day was 25 December." It said nothing about the birth or worship of Mithra or any other pagan deity,
 
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Strong in Him

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Apart from any of the other nonsense on this thread, Jeremiah 10:3 says "a craftsman shapes it with a chisel".

Hands up anyone here who buys a real Christmas tree and then takes it to a craftsman to be shaped?
If the OP can't show that anyone does that, then this verse from Jeremiah does not apply.
 
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You are kidding right? I read nothing wrong. Here you are quoting from an anonymous AI chat group. None of this anonymous stuff negates the fact that the post I quoted said "Sol had a magnificent temple on the campus Agrippae. Its dedication day was 25 December." It said nothing about the birth or worship of Mithra or any other pagan deity,
No. You’re not reading it. Look, they worshiped a sun god on December 25th. That is what it is saying.
 
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Der Alte

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No. You’re not reading it. Look, they worshiped a sun god on December 25th. That is what it is saying.
No the article does NOT say they worshipped a Sun God on Dec 25. It says the Romans worshipped Jupiter and the sun but it does NOT say on Dec 25<period> end of sentence!
Emended to Add: The complete article from your link.
(‘the invincible Sun’), a Syrian god. The first attempt to make the Sun the chief object of Roman worship was that of the emperor Elagabalus (ad 218–222), who introduced the god of Emesa on the Orontes, whose priest and, apparently, incarnation he was, El Gabal. Elagabalus' excesses and consequent unpopularity and assassination checked the cult, but Aurelian reintroduced a similar worship, also oriental; he was himself the son of a priestess of the Sun. This remained the chief imperial and official worship till Christianity displaced it, although the cult of the older gods, esp. Jupiter, did not cease, but rather the new one was somehow parallel to it, the Sun's clergy being called pontifices Solis (see pontifex), a significant name which was part of a policy of Romanizing the oriental god. Sol had a magnificent temple on the campus Agrippae. Its dedication day was 25 December.​
 
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Der Alte

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Apart from any of the other nonsense on this thread, Jeremiah 10:3 says "a craftsman shapes it with a chisel".
Hands up anyone here who buys a real Christmas tree and then takes it to a craftsman to be shaped?
If the OP can't show that anyone does that, then this verse from Jeremiah does not apply.
I have informed them of that more than once.
1699040529027.png
 
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You are kidding right? I read nothing wrong. Here you are quoting from an anonymous AI chat group. None of this anonymous stuff negates the fact that the post I quoted said "Sol had a magnificent temple on the campus Agrippae. Its dedication day was 25 December." It said nothing about the birth or worship of Mithra or any other pagan deity,
Chat.openai is supposed to be an artificial intelligence program. Granted, it is not self aware or intelligent like a human but it does gather data from the internet and reports to what you ask it. It is saying the same thing as the encyclopedia in that Sol Invictus is a reference to a sun god that they worshiped in Rome on December 25th. If you disagree, do more research and ask experts if necessary. They are all going to say the same thing. Many Christians even know this and they simply don’t care. They don’t care that their star (sun) decoration on top of their Christ-mass tree is a parallel. They don’t care that the lights on their idol tree are like little glowing stars or suns.
 
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