Hamas-Israel News Thread

[Ana the Ist]

As of now we can say only that the evidence is being collected and the UN warns both sides to keep the international humanitarian rules.

There's no denying of war crimes by Hamas. They're the one's that announced they had taken hostages...and there's footage of their attacks on civilians.

Reports that armed groups from Gaza have gunned down hundreds of unarmed civilians are abhorrent and cannot be tolerated. Taking civilian hostages and using civilians as human shields are war crimes.

So there's no doubt thay have committed war crimes.

Whether or not a "blockade" exists...we know Hamas has tunnels that they smuggle weapons into Gaza. People can flee through those should Hamas not "blockade" them. Of course, they won't remain hidden with hundreds of thousands of people fleeing through them....but that's Hamas' choice.

As for food and water...I don't see how Israel can blockade those, unless they're the ones supplying them.

As you probably already know...Gaza shares a large border with Egypt. Is Egypt blockading Gaza?

 

[Vanellus]

I will wait for more info before I come to any conclusion.

Israel have not used the "it was a misfiring Hamas rocket" excuse this time. They have admitted they bombed the refugee camp and of course are saying it was a Hamas base.

 

[Vanellus]

If someone can't even admit that Hamas uses hospitals and civilians as cover to fight the Israelis, there is hardly anything you can say in response to that. Better to go outside and exercise or go dancing. It's a better use of your time.

If Israel responds at all, they're war criminals. If they don't, they get destroyed. They are advised to take some kind of middle path, which really doesn't exist. I do believe they will come out of this in public perception as either war criminals who need to be tried in ICC or they will simply give up on the Zionist enterprise and leave, or they will try to appease the world and get destroyed anyway. So, I am starting to believe that this whole thread is pretty irrelevant in terms of playing out what the Israelis should actually do in relation to the people of Gaza, rooting out Hamas (who DOES use civilians for cover), their own security, and for the middle Eastern Muslim perception of them in general. Like I said, better to go outside and exercise. There's nothing any of us can do about this, anyway.

I can see that these same conflicts have been going on between the same people in the same region over roughly the same emotions, hatreds and and contentions for 4,000 years. Whatever will happen will happen and it's totally beyond us to navigate what a solution would look like or even implement them theoretically. The Israeli leadership will be the devil no matter what they try to push.

Hamas doesn't have the firepower to threaten the existence of Israel but Israel has the firepower to obliterate Gaza. And there seems no current reason to think that the surrounding countries and Iran will launch an all out war against Israel - that would be a threat to Israel's existence but with US backing it is again unlikely - the Arab countries and Iran don't want a war with the US.

 

[Vanellus]

Sir, there is no end to the conflict unless a Jewish state ceases to exist in Israel. My point about Mt. Moriah is totally valid because it illustrates the inability of Muslims to negotiate on such matters. I must ask: have you been to the Temple Mount? Have you been in a line where the Muslim guards confiscate your Bibles and don't even allow you to pray up there and where they force you out like cattle once you've had your precious 15 minute visit?

I can tell you that the common Muslim conception in Jerusalem is that non-Muslims can visit the Temple Mount but should definitely not be allowed to pray there. The fact that a war breaks out whenever a suspicion arises that the Jews want to take back their mountain is evidence that it's a hot button issue for them, and my point is the hypocrisy that Muslims would NEVER allow this to happen in Mecca, but it's somehow OK for them to confiscate the rights of other people to worship at a site that doesn't even rank first or second among their holy sites. It's a DOUBLE STANDARD.

There's no way for you to neatly wipe away the issue by quoting one Bible verse. In the Old Testament, God told the Israelites that his eyes and his heart would be there perpetually. 2 Chronicles 7:16. Jews do go up there because for THEM, it is the closest place where you can hear the voice of God. Do Jews have the right to feel this way? Jesus did say that it doesn't matter if we worship in Jerusalem, but that doesn't take away from the fact that Jerusalem is an extremely meaningful place to worship. Our Lord was up on that mountain many times. Why can't I take out a Bible and simply read the events from his life while up there?

By the way, the temple WAS on the temple mount. There is absolutely no debate on this issue among Israeli archaeologists. There was a theory hatched by some American researcher that the temple was somehow in the city of David (south of the mount) but that has been thoroughly debunked. I can tell you that there is a lot of probability and consensus about where the temple roughly stood, give or take 100 ft or so and 10 to 20 feet in elevation from the golden dome.

I can dial down the rhetoric if you want, but it doesn't change these facts: (1) the temple mount is Jewish, (2) at minimum, people of all faiths should be able to worship there if they want, (3) the Muslims are being hypocritical by making a big deal about a site they clearly don't reverence like they do their other sites, (4) that they refuse worship or simple reading or prayer to anyone but themselves up there, which is a double standard. Let's see them start a war over the temple mount and then watch as we kick soccer balls around the Kaaba. A total joke. They are being hypocrites and bullies and that is a comment I won't dial down, sir. It's EVIL.

No need to address me as "sir". It feels like a backhanded ungenuine politeness given the rest of your post.

I agree that religion is important in this conflict but I think that, given the title of the thread I don't think an extended conversation on the religious claims to holy sites in Judaism, Christianity and Islam fits this thread. And note that I could quote other Bible verses but there is a limit given the thread title and the nature of forum posts.

 

[Robban]

Re tunnels;

:

 

[JosephZ]

Live coverage on Al Jazeera is showing damage and ongoing rescue operations following another large Israeli airstrike in the Jabalia refugee camp. Several residential buildings have been destroyed and there are many casualties.

 

[JosephZ]

First foreigners leave Gaza through Rafah border crossing into Egypt

Hundreds of foreign passport holders and the wounded trapped in Gaza started leaving the war-torn territory Wednesday as the Rafah border crossing to Egypt opened to them for the first time since the October 7 Hamas attacks on Israel. A list of foreign passport holders who can leave Gaza via the Rafah crossing has been released by Gaza's Hamas-controlled Interior Ministry.

At least five NGO workers who have been confirmed as Americans are listed as approved to cross on Wednesday but it remains to be seen how many of at least 400 American citizens the U.S. State Department says are stuck in Gaza will be able to across in coming days.

One American trapped in Gaza has told CBS News she does not expect to cross yet.

"They started letting foreigners out today but it's not Americans because I guess we're not as important as we thought," Utah resident Susan Beseiso told CBS News on Wednesday.

"The American Embassy and the State Department haven't called us since the last time we went to the border and got bombed four times. They haven't been communicating with us or doing anything to get us out," Beseiso said.

"It's like they're holding us hostages — not Hamas holding us hostages — it's the IDF soldiers, Egypt and America. They're using us as a human shield in a way."

Some 545 foreigners and dual nationals along with dozens of sick and wounded were expected to leave.

 

[wing2000]

Live coverage on Al Jazeera is showing damage and ongoing rescue operations following another large Israeli airstrike in the Jabalia refugee camp. Several residential buildings have been destroyed and there are many casualties.

Israel and the US have already lost the propaganda war in the eyes of the Arab world. With each passing day that Israeli bombs reign down on Palestinian women and children, Hamas gains more sympothy.


Shibley Telhami, a political scientist at the University of Maryland who studies Arab public opinion, said that Israeli and American talk of destroying Hamas was playing into the group’s hands. Telhami told us, “When people in the Arab world hear ‘destroy Hamas,’ they think, ‘destroy Gaza.’ ” Telhami argued that unflinching American support for Israel’s retribution had now firmly tied Washington to the losing side of the propaganda war, adding, “In the Middle East and across the Global South, Joe Biden has become the same as the George W. Bush of the Iraq War. And, right now, there is no way around it.”

The Hamas Propaganda War

Across the Arab world, the group is successfully selling its narrative of resistance.

www.newyorker.com

And therein lies the challenge for Israel. To destroy Hamas, Gaza will have to be destroyed as well....as we are already witnessing daily.

 

[wing2000]

+ and Palestinian officials are reluctant to speak out against Hamas given the shifting public opinion:

Mahmoud Abbas, the President of the Palestinian Authority, recently spoke by phone with the President of Venezuela, and an initial readout released by the authority’s news agency describes Abbas as having said that Hamas’s actions and policies “don’t represent the Palestinian people.” Just a few moments later, however, this account of Abbas’s criticism of Hamas disappeared from the news site. Current and former officials of the authority told us that Abbas had demanded a retraction.

Nasser al-Qudwa, a nephew of the late Palestinian leader Yassir Arafat and a former foreign minister of the Palestinian Authority, has long condemned Hamas. But in a phone interview he told us that he could no longer do so in public. “I’m not willing to criticize them now,” he said. “How could I while bombs fall on people’s heads?”

The Hamas Propaganda War

Across the Arab world, the group is successfully selling its narrative of resistance.

www.newyorker.com

 

[RDKirk]

Israel and the US have already lost the propaganda war in the eyes of the Arab world. With each passing day that Israeli bombs reign down on Palestinian women and children, Hamas gains more sympothy.

Wait...was there a time when Israel and the US were winning the propaganda war in the eyes of the Arab world?

 

[Chesterton]

Wait...was there a time when Israel and the US were winning the propaganda war in the eyes of the Arab world?

Yeah, exactly. Plus if I said what newyorker.com has published I'd probably be called racist. I don't think the "Arab world" is monolithic and they all are so stupid or so evil they'll support Hamas because Israel is waging a legitimate war on them.

Of course there was that time in 2010 when Egyptians thought Israelis were controlling sharks to attack swimmers at their resorts, so, I don't know, I could be wrong.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Israel says it thwarted aerial attacks by Yemen’s Houthis near Red Sea​

Brig. Gen. Yahya Saree, a spokesperson for the Houthi forces, told Houthi-owned Al-Masirah TV that ballistic missiles and drones had been launched against targets in Israel in what he said was the third operation in support of the Palestinian people.

He added that there were plans for more strikes until the “Israeli aggression” ceased.

The Houthis are a [Iran-backed] Shia political and military organization in Yemen that have been fighting a civil war in the country against a coalition backed by Saudi Arabia.

 

[wing2000]

Wait...was there a time when Israel and the US were winning the propaganda war in the eyes of the Arab world?

...well, at least some Arab governments were moving toward agreements with Israel (i..e Abraham Accords).

 

[wing2000]

Yeah, exactly. Plus if I said what newyorker.com has published I'd probably be called racist. I don't think the "Arab world" is monolithic and they all are so stupid or so evil they'll support Hamas because Israel is waging a legitimate war on them.

Of course there was that time in 2010 when Egyptians thought Israelis were controlling sharks to attack swimmers at their resorts, so, I don't know, I could be wrong.

Did you read the article? It was more nuanced than what you are implying....

 

[Chesterton]

Did you read the article? It was more nuanced than what you are implying....

Yes, and to quote from the article - Yet to Palestinians and other Arab viewers—a very different audience, and one that is more important to Hamas—the awkward bismillah video served its purpose.

The author is basically calling Arabs stupid, or evil.

 

[wing2000]

Yes, and to quote from the article - Yet to Palestinians and other Arab viewers—a very different audience, and one that is more important to Hamas—the awkward bismillah video served its purpose.

The author is basically calling Arabs stupid, or evil.

...so if any group falls for social media propaganda, they are stupid or evil?

btw, I think that's your spin, not the author. Please feel free to cite text to support your assertion.

 

[Chesterton]

...so if any group falls for social media propaganda, they are stupid or evil?

If the propaganda is that atrociously bad, yes.

btw, I think that's your spin, not the author. Please feel free to cite text to support your assertion.

I think I did that in my post you responded to.

 

[wing2000]

If the propaganda is that atrociously bad, yes.

From what I have witnessed in our own county over the last few years, I have a new appreciation for what people will believe based on a headline or "astrociously bad" content. Perception is reality.

I think I did that in my post you responded to.

Yes, you did. My apologies.

Yet to Palestinians and other Arab viewers—a very different audience, and one that is more important to Hamas—the awkward bismillah video served its purpose.

The professor may be reaching with that specific video. However, I think there are plenty of signs that Hamas propaganda has been quite effective across Arab populations. That is a long term security concern for Israel...and the United States.

 

[Chesterton]

From what I have witnessed in our own county over the last few years, I have a new appreciation for what people will believe based on a headline or "astrociously bad" content.

I certainly agree, although I'm not sure if you and I are thinking of the same group of people. Anyway, my charge was racism. "Arab" is more or less a race. "American" is not a race.

The professor may be reaching with that specific video. However, I think there are plenty of signs that Hamas propaganda has been quite effective across Arab populations. That is a long term security concern for Israel...and the United States.

That's a concern, but it's not a reason to not try to destroy Hamas.

 

[RDKirk]

...well, at least some Arab governments were moving toward agreements with Israel (i..e Abraham Accords).

Sure, I suspect the Saudis are muttering the Arabic equivalent of, "Well, darn!" under their breaths because anything that forces them into a public pan-Islamic alliance with Shiites militates against their war with the Shiites.