Hamas-Israel News Thread

[civilwarbuff]

Israel bears sole responsibility for this attack on the densely populated refugee camp.

Seems this may well have been a legitimate target with Hamas using Gazans (again) as human shields.

 

[BPPLEE]

The false claim that 500 Americans are being held hostage in Gaza can likely be traced to Mario Nawfal, an X user who often goes viral with sensationalist claims on the social media platform.

“JUST IN: The White House admitted Hamas is holding nearly 500 Americans hostage in Gaza. Via: U.S. Senator Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee,” Nawfal tweeted on Tuesday.

But Blackburn is incorrect about the number of hostages being held by Hamas. The Israel Defense Forces have said 230 people are being held by Hamas in Gaza, according to the latest figures released by the IDF. And obviously not every one of those 230 people are Americans.

The Washington Post reported on October 20 that about 500 Americans were stuck in Gaza, unable to leave since nobody is allowed to leave the territory right now.

Why can’t Americans leave Gaza? According to the White House, Hamas is stopping people from leaving via the Rafah crossing from Gaza into Egypt. But journalists report that’s not the case and that Israel and Egypt are the ones who seem to be holding up the opening of the border crossing.

“Of the many civilians The Washington Post has contacted inside Gaza who are waiting to leave, none has said that Hamas or anyone else has physically prevented them from crossing. But the border gate is not operational,” the Washington Post reported on October 28.

Viral Claim Hamas Holding 500 Americans Hostage In Gaza Isn’t True

Did you see a claim on social media this week that Hamas is holding 500 Americans hostage in Gaza? It’s gone viral, but it’s simply not true.

www.forbes.com

Egypt is not allowing anyone in . Blackburn posted that the US citizens were not being allowed to leave

 

[JosephZ]

Hamas is not a race of people wiping them out would not be genocide

Genocide is defined in Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

https://www.un.org/ar/preventgenocide/adviser/pdf/osapg_analysis_framework.pdf

 

[civilwarbuff]

Seems this may well have been a legitimate target with Hamas using Gazans (again) as human shields.

And some more.....

 

[Robban]

Deuteronomy 25:17-19
The Amalakites are long gone but their spirit lives on.
One descendent was Haman,
Esther 3:8-9

Amalek in the spiritual sphere,

is the essence of baseless irrational indifference.
Midrash

Haman traced his descent to Agog, King of Amalek.

 

[BPPLEE]

Genocide is defined in Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

https://www.un.org/ar/preventgenocide/adviser/pdf/osapg_analysis_framework.pdf

Which one of those applies to Hamas? a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, ?
And just so I understand are you opposed to a terrorists group being wiped out?

 

[JosephZ]

Which one of those applies to Hamas? a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, ?

Palestinians are an ethnonational group.

 

[JosephZ]

And just so I understand are you opposed to a terrorists group being wiped out?

Not at all. Hamas is a terrorist group that has carried out horrific attacks against Israel and exploits the Palestinian people. Hamas needs to be eradicated.

 

[BPPLEE]

Palestinians are an ethnonational group.

I agree. He was talking about Hamas.

 

[JosephZ]

I agree. He was talking about Hamas.

My mistake. I should have paid more attention when giving my response. Eliminating Hamas certainly wouldn't be considered an act of genocide.

 

[wing2000]

My guess is that a ground invasion involving high casualties is the other option but it risks no less loss of life for civilians who remain in the area.

Well, being attacked by ground forces is much different than a 500lb bomb falling on ones house. At least one has a chance of surviving if an Israeli soldier breaks through your front door.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well, being attacked by ground forces is much different than a 500lb bomb falling on ones house. At least one has a chance of surviving if an Israeli soldier breaks through your front door.

True...but combat can be pretty confusing. Aerial strikes get called in...artillery gets called in....people running for cover get confused with enemy soldiers.

There's plenty of innocent people who died during building to building sweeps. It's just not a guarantee of survival either way.

It's a war zone.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well, being attacked by ground forces is much different than a 500lb bomb falling on ones house. At least one has a chance of surviving if an Israeli soldier breaks through your front door.

I think the bigger picture needs to be considered as well...

In order to keep this conflict from crossing more borders and drawing in other nations/militaries....Israel needs to finish off Hamas and quickly and severely. It needs to be a "stomping" so to speak...to avoid neighboring nations from jumping in. If Israel gets bogged down...if their military stalls or fails to finish the job....Iran or other nations/terrorist groups could easily see it as a sign of weakness and decide to strike...which is almost certainly going to draw us in...and that's not a good situation for anyone.

It would literally be a better outcome if Israel drove the entire population out of Gaza.

 

[har_habayit]

Well quite a lot of assumptions there as if you can read the mind of each and every Muslim - and you think they all think exactly the same thing on such matters: not realistic. Maybe dial down the us and them rhetoric if you want an end to the conflict.

The Christian take on "holy places":
Believe Me, woman,” Jesus replied, “a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem

It's not at all certain where Solomon's Temple actually was - some think it may have been south of the Temple Mount.

Native Americans may think the same about their holy sites that have been taken from them - I don't think the US government will give them back.

Sir, there is no end to the conflict unless a Jewish state ceases to exist in Israel. My point about Mt. Moriah is totally valid because it illustrates the inability of Muslims to negotiate on such matters. I must ask: have you been to the Temple Mount? Have you been in a line where the Muslim guards confiscate your Bibles and don't even allow you to pray up there and where they force you out like cattle once you've had your precious 15 minute visit?

I can tell you that the common Muslim conception in Jerusalem is that non-Muslims can visit the Temple Mount but should definitely not be allowed to pray there. The fact that a war breaks out whenever a suspicion arises that the Jews want to take back their mountain is evidence that it's a hot button issue for them, and my point is the hypocrisy that Muslims would NEVER allow this to happen in Mecca, but it's somehow OK for them to confiscate the rights of other people to worship at a site that doesn't even rank first or second among their holy sites. It's a DOUBLE STANDARD.

There's no way for you to neatly wipe away the issue by quoting one Bible verse. In the Old Testament, God told the Israelites that his eyes and his heart would be there perpetually. 2 Chronicles 7:16. Jews do go up there because for THEM, it is the closest place where you can hear the voice of God. Do Jews have the right to feel this way? Jesus did say that it doesn't matter if we worship in Jerusalem, but that doesn't take away from the fact that Jerusalem is an extremely meaningful place to worship. Our Lord was up on that mountain many times. Why can't I take out a Bible and simply read the events from his life while up there?

By the way, the temple WAS on the temple mount. There is absolutely no debate on this issue among Israeli archaeologists. There was a theory hatched by some American researcher that the temple was somehow in the city of David (south of the mount) but that has been thoroughly debunked. I can tell you that there is a lot of probability and consensus about where the temple roughly stood, give or take 100 ft or so and 10 to 20 feet in elevation from the golden dome.

I can dial down the rhetoric if you want, but it doesn't change these facts: (1) the temple mount is Jewish, (2) at minimum, people of all faiths should be able to worship there if they want, (3) the Muslims are being hypocritical by making a big deal about a site they clearly don't reverence like they do their other sites, (4) that they refuse worship or simple reading or prayer to anyone but themselves up there, which is a double standard. Let's see them start a war over the temple mount and then watch as we kick soccer balls around the Kaaba. A total joke. They are being hypocrites and bullies and that is a comment I won't dial down, sir. It's EVIL.

 

[har_habayit]

You aren't seriously asking that question are you? It's a well established fact that Hamas has hundreds of miles of tunnels and they have built them undwr hospitals, schools and residential areas. It's is is also a well established fact that Hamas threatens people. It is also a well established fact that Hamas and their supporters will lie through their teeth.

So it's probable based upon historical information and factual information that Hamas has a tunnel under this hospital. And this doctor is either lying about it because he's a sympathizer or he's being threatened.

If someone can't even admit that Hamas uses hospitals and civilians as cover to fight the Israelis, there is hardly anything you can say in response to that. Better to go outside and exercise or go dancing. It's a better use of your time.

If Israel responds at all, they're war criminals. If they don't, they get destroyed. They are advised to take some kind of middle path, which really doesn't exist. I do believe they will come out of this in public perception as either war criminals who need to be tried in ICC or they will simply give up on the Zionist enterprise and leave, or they will try to appease the world and get destroyed anyway. So, I am starting to believe that this whole thread is pretty irrelevant in terms of playing out what the Israelis should actually do in relation to the people of Gaza, rooting out Hamas (who DOES use civilians for cover), their own security, and for the middle Eastern Muslim perception of them in general. Like I said, better to go outside and exercise. There's nothing any of us can do about this, anyway.

I can see that these same conflicts have been going on between the same people in the same region over roughly the same emotions, hatreds and and contentions for 4,000 years. Whatever will happen will happen and it's totally beyond us to navigate what a solution would look like or even implement them theoretically. The Israeli leadership will be the devil no matter what they try to push.

 

[rjs330]

I think you fell for the common error - thinking that one side (Palestinians) is full of evil and one side (Jews) is totally innocent. Which leads to injustice ("it does not matter that a Palestinian child was torn apart by a bomb, because it was a revenge for a Jewish child" style of thinking).

This bipolar, black-and-white view of the world is actually a thinking closer to Hamas than to Christianity.

Actually it's not. God good, Devil bad. It's about as black and white as it gets.

 

[har_habayit]

As an addendum: as stated, the operation that started this war is "Al Aqsa Flood." The entire reason for this war, and for this thread, is the temple mount. So it's actually very relevant, and the issues involved there are intimately connected with the entire Jewish enterprise in Israel and resistance to that plan (Zionism) by Palestinians.

Even from a civil rights perspective, you have to think of this issue in terms of the blacks and whites in the U.S. during Jim Crow times (segregation). Black people were not allowed to drink from the same drinking fountains as white people, because the blacks were considered inferior by the whites. White people, who were considered superior, had drinking fountains that had the label, "for whites only." There was a cruel mechanism of segregation and an obvious thought process among the whites that they believed they were superior.

I see the temple mount issue as carried out today exactly as the above when divorced from religion, if that were possible. The Muslims are the Jim Crow crowd. They are the superior whites who get to worship on the top of the mountain. The Jews are the blacks and the "colored folk" who have to drink the "less clean water" at the Western Wall below.

 

[trophy33]

The blockade is to prevent enemy terrorists from evacuating. It's good to see the UN investigating possible Israeli war crimes and confirming Palestinian war crimes that have already been committed.

I guess as of now we can say Israel hasn't committed any war crimes.

As of now we can say only that the evidence is being collected and the UN warns both sides to keep the international humanitarian rules.

A total blockade of millions of people without food, water, electricity, while bombing them, is a war crime. Expulsion of people from their homes, too.

"The Commission is gravely concerned with Israel’s latest attack on Gaza and Israel’s announcement of a complete siege on Gaza involving the withholding of water, food, electricity and fuel which will undoubtfully cost civilian lives and constitutes collective punishment."

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/commission-of-inquiry-collecting-evidence-of-war-crimes-committed-by-all-sides-in-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories-since-7-october-2023/

 

[trophy33]

Actually it's not. God good, Devil bad. It's about as black and white as it gets.

Jews are not God and Palestinians are not devil. Please stop this dangerous fanatical talk. Exactly this mindset leads to genocides, terrorism and other atrocities.
Whites vs black, Christians vs Muslims, Christians vs Jews, Jews vs Arabs, West vs whatever, Russia vs "fascist" West etc. Has not history taught us anything?

 

[har_habayit]

Did you guys know that Hamas and particularly Hezbollah traffic drugs to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars in the Western hemisphere? I thought it surprising because I thought these were pure Islamic mujahideen who were intent on honoring Allah by cleansing the land of those filthy Zionist pigs and reinstituting Muslim worship. It turns out drugs are a huge part of their revenue. It seems contrary to their Islamic principles, but then again, I guess it's all worth it if the goal is murdering Jews and Americans.

It also makes perfect sense of why they place their military headquarters under civilian targets. Because they really DON'T care about Palestinians. In fact, the more of them die, the more valiant and legitimate their brand becomes, and the more justification they have to do what they have always wanted to do and what they are dying to have more excuse to do: murder Jews and Americans.

It's also a little disappointing that the Iranian regime is caught up in all of this. I saw President Raisi holding up a Quran at the U.N. recently and saying that the book will never be destroyed no matter how much it is burned in other countries. I really wanted to believe that Iran, despite my disagreement with their ideology, was a pure Islamic entity that really believed Allah needed to be honored by wiping out the illegitimate Zionist occupier. Alas!