Hamas-Israel News Thread

[Valletta]

The AP could not independently verify that either line was functioning."

Of course not. Hamas controls the area, they are not going to let AP verify the water is flowing. Of course if it was not they would bring in every reporter they could.

 

[trophy33]

I can't play the my opinion is better than your opinion game anymore. Whatever the reason, the Palestinians and the Nazi's murdered Jews, including their children. That's the end of the story.

For that, the penalty is death.

Also, Jews murdered Palestinians, including their children. Are you saying that the penalty for that is death, too?

This primitive way of tribal thinking is exactly the cause of the generational spiral of violence we witness there.

Israel should surgically target those who are behind the attack. Not millions of people, destroying their homes, bombing them, driving whole families out - massive collective punishment. From these millions of people collectively punished, some hundreds or even thousands of terrorists, who will want to punish Jews for their dead children, mothers, fathers, will arise again. It has no end.

 

[Valletta]

Hamas blocks foreign nationals from entering Egypt

Are Foreign Nationals now hostages? British Nationals need protecting. They should be extracted by British Special Forces asap.

Hamas refused to release over 500 Americans.

 

[truthpls]

I can't play the my opinion is better than your opinion game anymore. Whatever the reason, the Palestinians and the Nazi's murdered Jews, including their children. That's the end of the story.

For that, the penalty is death.

No. The Nazis were not having their country taken over under thread of being evicted. The nazis attacked civilians including Jews in an ethnic cleansing attempt. Israel today is attacking Gaza and killing a lot of people rather than the terrorists it says it is after.
The penalty cannot be death for babies and families, that is unacceptable and a crime against humanity.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I wouldn't want to send humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip. Who's to say the helpers wouldn't just become the next batch of hostages? The terrorists of Hamas have shown that they spare neither foreigners nor humanitarian workers.

You are right. Hamas doesn't care about anyone but themselves. They don't care about the Palestinian civilians. They are using them as human shields and know that thousands more will be killed as Israel begins its invasion. They are deliberately blocking civilians getting away to the south so that more will be killed, and then they will blame it on Israel. Although a news agency has accused Israel of genocide. But it is Hamas who is committing genocide on the Palestinian civilians by blocking their escape and holding them as human shields. They have deliberately set up headquarters in one of the largest hospitals knowing that civilians will be killed when Israel attacks it. Because the U.N, is basically anti Israel (no matter what they say) Hamas will manipulate it and the world media to put the blame on Israel. We need to be warned, if Israel falls over, Hamas and other terrorist organisations like them will come after the U.K., the U.S., Australia and New Zealand, because their goal is to put the whole world under Islamic rule and law.

Following the U.N. resolution and call for a cease fire will play right into Hamas' hands, because that will give them a chance to regroup and strengthen their defences. Israel would be shooting themselves in the foot if they agree to a ceasefire, even a temporary one. Note that the U.N. are not calling on Hamas to allow civilians to escape, or lay down their arms and surrender for the good of the Palestinian state. Israel does not view Palestine as the enemy. It's desire is for both to exist together in harmony. Before the situation, great numbers of Palestinians were going into Israel for employment, and they were welcomed. Where we see news of the Israelis coming into conflict with Palestinians, it involves the extremists, not the ordinary people who are seeking just to live a normal life and earn a living for themselves and their families.

I support Israel, and the sooner they go in and destroy Hamas, the better.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

One of the main goals of Hamas is the elimination of the Jews - they stated it plainly. They shoot rockets from heavy civilian areas, schools and hospitals and when Israel responds by taking the launch sites out - they claim Israel is firing on schools and hospitals. They use woman and children as human shields and then parade their bodies saying that Israel is killing woman and children. They use their money for weapons and preparation for war instead of the basic human needs of their people.

All established facts through the years.

Do you really believe monitoring people who publicly swear to kill you - who have openly attacked you for decades is reason to behead children? Or rape woman? or take and murder hostiges?

Let's be clear. If they eliminate the Jews, they will come after you next.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No. The Nazis were not having their country taken over under thread of being evicted. The nazis attacked civilians including Jews in an ethnic cleansing attempt. Israel today is attacking Gaza and killing a lot of people rather than the terrorists it says it is after.
The penalty cannot be death for babies and families, that is unacceptable and a crime against humanity.

The crime against humanity is perpetrated by Hamas. Israel is giving civilians every opportunity to escape to safety in the south of Gaza. It is Hamas that are setting up road blocks and stopping civilians getting away. Hamas is the criminal because they are deliberately and knowingly using innocent men, women and children as human shields and they won't care how many are killed to suit their purpose. The news media is being manipulated to believe that Israel is the criminal here.

 

[rjs330]

So you are basically for using the same strategy (terror) as those butchers, just in a larger scale, thanks to better military equipment...?

The strategy is to win the war. I think that's everyone's strategy is it not? Do you you think that somehow one group has bigger guns it's somehow it's worse? Man what do think war is?

It's something that should be avoided if at all possible. And when it's not then it should be fought to win as quickly as possible with as few casualties in your side as possible.
Israel was attacked for crying out loud. And she has a right to end the threat. And if the enemy throws their own people in front of your bullets that in them not you.

Hamas should surrender and then all those lives will be spared.

 

[rjs330]

They are innocent, if they did not do it. What is so hard for you about this simple concept to grasp it? You know what, simply forget that its Israel and place for example Iraq or Egypt or Syria instead, there. Or Russia or any country you do not like.

Your emotional bias will hopefully go away and you will see the error in your views.

No they are not innocent. They have blood on their hands because they voted for Hamas and gave them, food, shelter and support. That makes you guilty. Especially when you know haw they feel about the Jews.

 

[truthpls]

What lands were taken in 1948? Who took them?

If people lost their houses and lands and over 700,000 people fled as refugees then who took their lands and forced them out, the tooth fairy?

I don't want to give out history lessons but for centuries before your grandad was born there was this large and powerful empire called the Ottoman Empire that ruled over the whole region and much more territory and you might call them "colonizers" or "slavers" but the people living in Palestine just called them "the guys in charge that own this place".

Then, as empires tend to do, the once mighty Ottomans got weaker and weaker, lost much of their territory in several wars....until losing that particular region to the British post WW1. This isn't a matter of dispute. Nobody questioned that it was Ottoman territory and nobody questioned that they ceded control of the region to the British. It's indisputable.

Now the British controlled the land and while the locals caused them some trouble, it wasn't a big concern...after all WW2 was starting up and the British had more to worry about.

Except the Jewish influx started long before that war.

The locals, as it turned out, were big fans of the nazis. They shared a similar hatred of jews.

Was that after the British imported untold multitudes of them and they knew their country and lands were is danger??

When WW2 closed...a lot of Jewish people had been displaced...either fleeing their countries or not wanting to stay in them because so many of their countrymen were more than willing to hand jews over to the nazis. Poland is notorious for this, of course, but they aren't the only ones...even places that the nazis hadn't invaded were shipping their jews to the nazis for extermination. Antisemitism was so common for so long it was rampant all throughout the political spectrum....

Being refugees does not give you the right to steal a country and make them refugees

Some jews had already had an idea for a land of their own where they could be safe from the antisemitism that dogged them wherever they went....and after the cold bureaucratic nature of the Holocaust was revealed to the world...a lot of people felt this was not only a good idea, but the least they could do for sitting by while jews were being exterminated.

No one told them people already lived there and owned lands etc?

And so the British decided to give a portion of the region to the jews for their own nation to live in....and everyone learned that the Arabs and various Islamic cultures of the middle east were some of the worst antisemites of all.

The so called portion was all of the lands as it turned out and the people were forced out. That was not an act that had the vote of the people there.

I'm leaving a fair portion out but I'm not your history teacher...those are the broad strokes up to 1948.

So who exactly stole what from whom?

Whoever took the lands and forced the hundreds of thousands of people out stole the land.

I understand that many of the locals decided to "fight the jewish people" for the land and because they had the backing of many of their Arab neighbors who actually had armies....they thought they'd win and there was no need to settle for control of just part of the region.

It was some sort of negotiation where people were supposed to settle? People were forced out. Some negotiation.

Sadly for them...they got beaten like a rented mule. In a nearly unprecedented display of generosity...the Israeli people actually handed back large chunks of what the locals lost...in hopes that this generosity would lead to peaceful relationships with their new neighbors.

What were they supposed to do, finish them all off or expel all of them and face the wrath of the world? How generous, did you even pay for the barbed wire barriers?

As it turns out....that was probably a mistake and they should have just kept it. Everyone would be better off now if they had.

I doubt that. The inevitable would probably have come quicker. You do realize that most of Israel will be killed the bible says? It will be surrounded and attacked.

Well you're talking about a home invader...implying that the home is mine.

The jewish people didn't take anything from anyone....it was given to them from the British...who got it from the Ottomans.

If they did not take it why did hundreds of thousands of former owners flee? The British ruled the area but never gave it to just the Jews. I seem to recall even British were killed in the King David hotel terrorism?
"
The British administrative headquarters for Mandatory Palestine, housed in the southern wing[1] of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, were bombed in a terrorist attack[2][3] on July 22, 1946, by the militant right-wing[4] Zionist underground organization the Irgun during the Jewish insurgency.[5][6][7] 91 people of various nationalities were killed, including Arabs, Britons and Jews, and 46 were injured.[8]"


The hotel was the site of the central offices of the British Mandatory authorities of Palestine, principally the Secretariat of the Government of Palestine and the Headquarters of the British Armed Forces in Palestine and Transjordan.[8][9] When planned, the attack had the approval of the Haganah, the principal Jewish paramilitary group in Palestine, though, unbeknownst to the Irgun, this had been cancelled by the time the operation was carried out. The main motive of the bombing was to destroy documents incriminating the Jewish Agency in attacks against the British, which were obtained during Operation Agatha, a series of raids by mandate authorities. It was the deadliest attack directed at the British during the Mandate era (1920–1948).[8][9]"

King David Hotel bombing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If we go back any further we'll be discussing the Holy Roman Empire and the people they took the land from....the jews.


I don't understand who the home invader is here....the British? The Ottomans? Who?

The ones who took the lands and houses and forced hundreds of thousands to flee as refugees.

If it's an apartment full of terrorists and their supporters....they absolutely should.

How evil to say such a thing. Babies and children and families are not terrorists and you calling them supporters is opinion.

 

[truthpls]

Of course not. Hamas controls the area, they are not going to let AP verify the water is flowing. Of course if it was not they would bring in every reporter they could.

So it is a matter of belief alone. Trust alone. Why would anyone trust the ones bombing a huge population?

 

[truthpls]

The crime against humanity is perpetrated by Hamas. Israel is giving civilians every opportunity to escape to safety in the south of Gaza.

Says who? News articles say differently. How dare anyone issue a terrorist demand like vacate half your country or die!? Then attack convoys fleeing etc etc.

It is Hamas that are setting up road blocks and stopping civilians getting away.

Says...who? If bombs fall all the time is that not a warning to seek shelter rather than gallivant in the rubble with babies?

Hamas is the criminal because they are deliberately and knowingly using innocent men, women and children as human shields and they won't care how many are killed to suit their purpose.

Well, what sort of so called shield is that when the apartments gets bombed regardless? Sounds like propaganda.

The news media is being manipulated to believe that Israel is the criminal here.

All I have to do is look at the mass murder going on and who is doing it. No media needed.
I see even the almost dead and wounded from the bombs are being asked to 'take up their beds and walk' away from the hospital! Not only has medical supplies been cut off but they terrorize the patients now!

"Israel steps up strikes close to al-Quds Hospital in Gaza City after ordering its “immediate” evacuation; the World Health Organization says it is “deeply concerned”.

Israel-Hamas war updates: Israel bombs areas near Gaza’s Al-Quds Hospital

These were the updates on the Israel-Hamas war for Sunday, October 29.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Ana the Ist]

@Ana the Ist, @Landon Caeli , @Hank77, @civilwarbuff

Let us simplify our conversation:
Are you able to simply admit that both sides, Palestinians and Jews, did and do wrong things to each other?

Sure.

That both lives matter and that the life of one ethnicity is not more worth than of the other one?

Saying that all lives matter was actually something I did during the "Black Lives Matter" riots and protests, and franky...I was derided for it.

I was told that recognizing the worth of all lives somehow diminished the struggle the black community believed it was facing.

I wasn't actually trying to diminish anyone's struggle...I felt there was a larger point being missed in that police shootings and excessive violence happen to every race in the US at some point, and perhaps if there was a problem...it's origins might not be racial.

As it turned out, the organizers of the whole movement wanted everyone to think it was racial...to profit off of black corpses, white people who felt guilty for being racist, and black people who imagined they were part of a new civil rights movement. Once they achieved their goal of grifting millions from the gullible public...the BLM organizers took the money and ran (figuratively...they didn't actually run, I think they danced).

I'll say the same thing here...that on a general and superficial level...all lives matter and I'm certainly not judging anyone because of their ethnicity.

Can you say that some lives matter less....because of the actions of the people living those lives?

You're from the EU. I doubt if you could time travel back to the end of WW2...you'd be defending nazi high command. After all, they did horrible things, espoused and propagated horrible beliefs....and destroyed the lives of many many people.

It's because of their actions....not even their beliefs....their lives are worth less, aren't they? If they were confined to a prison until they die... that's not unjust, is it? In many cases, they were executed....and many of them had simply obeyed the laws of their nation. Many of them hadn't personally killed anyone. Still, that doesn't make their lives as equal in value to others....does it?

You can consider that one question rephrased several different ways. I'll agree that all lives matter...to some degree or another...but I would contend that because of the actions and behavior of people....some people's lives have more value than others. A Schindler is worth a hundred Goebbels....at least.

If you cannot do that, your siding with one specific side is not factual, but fanatical, religious.

I'm an atheist. I've chosen my position rationally. I don't believe in any messiahs, prophets, or religions.

Ask yourself how you got to behave and think in a way that is sensitive to suffering of only one side and dismissive of the other.

I posted a thread about a gay social justice journalist who was murdered in his home in Philly. It originally made headlines because of the coincidental irony of a Twitter/X post he made that mocked and dismissed conservatives political concerns about violent crimes increasing in cities like his...

Then an update to the story came out and it was hardly mentioned anywhere. His killer turned himself in...his motive being explained as a story of him being lured into the victim's home with drugs, coerced into a sexual relationship at 15, which continued because the killer was addicted, and when the victim attempted to blackmail the killer into other sexual acts at 19...he was shot 7 times by the killer and died.

Why tell you this? Because even though I'm a straight man who vehemently disagrees with the politics of the deceased and thought he seemed like a self righteous, moralizing, victimhood claiming narcissist...I genuinely felt bad for his friends who mourned his death and wanted to see his killer brought to justice. I have nothing significant in common with the man (unless you consider race significant, I don't) but it didn't change my judgement of the situation nor the way I felt about it.

The same can be said of the killer most likely. As a young black possibly gay man in Philly, it's unlikely we share any religious beliefs and few political beliefs. These things simply don't matter to me because I judge people by their actions....by their behavior....and their reasons for that behavior. When the story broke...no suspect was mentioned, but I hoped he was found and brought to justice.

If the killer's story has evidence that would lead one to reasonably conclude it's true (and circumstances suggest that's the case) I care a lot more about the killer's life than the "victim's". His actions led to his own death. I don't think the killer is a danger to the community...I think he's a victim who took a life to hide the way he was being victimized....which was awful, and extraordinarily difficult for a young man to process and deal with. I don't support vigilantes....especially when they take a life...but the circumstances and behavior of deceased make this a rare exception in my mind and I hope the killer isn't imprisoned or if he is, he's given the lightest sentence possible.

My evaluation of the worth of these two lives did a complete flip flop between when the story broke, and when it was updated by the arrest of the killer. My view is entirely based upon what appear to be the facts (obviously I haven't seen all the evidence so my view could change again). Race, religion, politics, creed, and bias plays no part in my opinion on matters of life and death and justice.

The Israel/Palestine conflict is every bit a matter of life, death, and justice.

 

[Ana the Ist]

So it is a matter of belief alone. Trust alone. Why would anyone trust the ones bombing a huge population?

Because we have independent verification of their actions....as other posters have shown they do indeed call ahead to give civilians a chance to evacuate....something only those civilians could verify.

Hamas on the other hand takes hostages and lies about accidentally killing their own people. We know Hamas both...

1. Uses human shields. That's why they took hostages.

2. Kills their own people...some accidentally, sometimes for being a disobedient human shield.

Do the math. If it's a choice between trusting the people who we know are honest about bombing buildings and attempt to let them evacuate beforehand....

Or trusting the people we know use human shields, kill their own people, and lie about both of these things...

Then figuring out which group is more trustworthy isn't very difficult.

 

[truthpls]

Because we have independent verification of their actions....as other posters have shown they do indeed call ahead to give civilians a chance to evacuate....something only those civilians could verify.

News articles say that that is hit and miss. Also not during blackouts. And also, since the bombing continues and fleeing convoys attacked and killed they cannnot be believed.

Hamas on the other hand takes hostages and lies about accidentally killing their own people. We know Hamas both...

Who accidentally killed who? Source? Why point fingers at Hamas as an excuse to mass murder civilians?

1. Uses human shields. That's why they took hostages.

Israel blows up so called human shields along with their apartments

Do the math. If it's a choice between trusting the people who we know are honest about bombing buildings and attempt to let them evacuate beforehand....

Already exposed as a false claim

Or trusting the people we know use human shields, kill their own people, and lie about both of these things...

No one needs to trust Hamas or listen to a word they say. All we need to do is see a heavily populated area have swaths of apartments bombed.

Then figuring out which group is more trustworthy isn't very difficult.

I do not believe Israel when they are committing terrorism and mass murdering civilians. As for Hamas, unless you can get them without attacking civilians it doesn't matter what they or Israel says. One would be foolish to believe either in this fog of war. We can believe the apartments have been destroyed on a massive scale. We can confirm aid was not allowed in on any scale approaching the need.

 

[trophy33]

You're from the EU. I doubt if you could time travel back to the end of WW2...you'd be defending nazi high command. After all, they did horrible things, espoused and propagated horrible beliefs....and destroyed the lives of many many people.

Sure. Who is analogous to nazism in Palestinian/Israel conflict, though? Both sides hate each other and are willing to kill each other in high numbers, to lie about each other etc.

International community must simply force both sides to stop violence and other illegal activity. Backing just one side of the conflict and ignoring the suffering of the other is unjust. Sadly, many people or countries are picking clear side for various emotional reasons. Which does not help to solve it at all.

 

[trophy33]

The strategy is to win the war. I think that's everyone's strategy is it not? Do you you think that somehow one group has bigger guns it's somehow it's worse? Man what do think war is?

It's something that should be avoided if at all possible. And when it's not then it should be fought to win as quickly as possible with as few casualties in your side as possible.
Israel was attacked for crying out loud. And she has a right to end the threat. And if the enemy throws their own people in front of your bullets that in them not you.

Hamas should surrender and then all those lives will be spared.

The group that has bigger guns needs to have also a bigger responsibility. The guns are mostly from their international allies, anyway. They cannot use it in a barbaric, furious ethnic cleansing way.

Who knows, if instead of tearing Palestinian houses down and building luxurious Jewish settlements in their place, helping them would not bring more peace than the spiral of brutal revenge for the action of some.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Let's be clear. If they eliminate the Jews, they will come after you next.

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

 

[civilwarbuff]

And the antisemitism spreads.....

 

[Always in His Presence]

Israel should surgically target those who are behind the attack.

Those who are behind the attack are in tunnels under apartment buildings and headquartered in Hospitals and schools.

What do you suggest Israel does?