Christian Viewpoint On The Gun Debate

[Reasonably Sane]

The way the Bible treats God's people is always corporately, i.e. the Church. Christianity is not a religion of individualistic practitioners doing their own thing; but is instead group-practice and group-identity--we are members of the Body of Christ, our identity is together. The New Testament words like koinonia emphasize this. Christian--biblical--ethics, based upon God's commandments, are about placing others before ourselves. The ways in which Christianity is practiced in a highly individualistic way in America is not a reflection of historic, biblical Christianity but merely an expression of the American ethos, even when that ethos is in stark contrast to God's own Self-Revelation in Jesus Christ, the inspired witness of Sacred Scripture, and the historic witness and experience of the Church catholic.

Sure. And the US constitution does separate people into two groups: Citizens and non citizens. But that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about individual rights for citizens.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

That is what being a Christian means. Rather than asserting ourselves over, and at the expense of others; we conform ourselves--as Christ our God did--by being humble servants. We do not exploit, we do not assert our dominance--we humble ourselves, we give ourselves away, placing others ahead of ourselves.

Exactly. And they US constitution protects our individual right to act on that (or not). Also, this country is not a theocracy. One of our individual freedoms is freedom of or from religion. i.e. unlike in Muslim countries, in the US people are free to accept the Christian message or not. And that is a core principle of Christianity. The strongest action we are to take against those who refuse to believe is to "shake the dust off your feet". Christianity at its core is about our freedom to accept or reject Christ. And the US constitution carries that spirit forward, preserving our freedom to live our life as we choose, without government interference unless we violate laws that, frankly, are there to protect the freedom of others.

 

[FireDragon76]

"Every living, moving thing will be food for you. I have given everything to you," Genesis 9:3

After Adam and Eve had decided to eat the fruit and got expelled from paradise, where they were only eating plants.

"Esau was a skillful hunter, an outdoorsman" Genesis 25:27

Esau wasn't exactly righteous.

 

[Aldebaran]

After Adam and Eve had decided to eat the fruit and got expelled from paradise, where they were only eating plants.

The past is the past. This is now.

 

[FireDragon76]

The past is the past. This is now.

My point is that you can't exactly justify meat eating as an ideal based on the story in Genesis.

 

[Aldebaran]

My point is that you can't exactly justify meat eating as an ideal based on the story in Genesis.

Even if it can't be justified in that particular book, I don't see anywhere where it is condemned.

 

[FireDragon76]

Most Americans support common-sense gun regulations, like banning assault weapons and red flag laws. It's just a sign of our broken politics that support doesn't translate into policy.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Regarding the last sentence above, I'm just saying it's based on Judeo Christian values. i.e. personal freedom to choose your path.

That, to me, is just modern American gobbledygook.

While there are ethical concerns which both Judaism and Christianity share in common, these don't correlate with modernistic conceptions present in America.

"Personal freedom to choose your path" certainly doesn't look like, "I am the LORD your God who brought you out of Egypt, out of the house of slavery, you shall have no other gods before Me." (Exodus 20:2-3)

It instead looks like secularism. I am not saying that in a critical way either--I believe one of the good things about America is that it is a secular democracy which allows people the freedom of (or from) religion. But that isn't a Jewish or Christian value; that's a secular value. In the Christian Church there is certainly no room for anything other than the worship of "One God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the Substance" (Athanasian Creed). And that matters as a Christian value, for those who call themselves followers of Jesus.

But America isn't founded on either Jewish or Christian values. America doesn't compel those outside of the Christian religion to observe Christian religious practices or adhere to Christian religious beliefs. I think that's a good thing, as I don't believe there should be a political compulsion to be a Christian. But we certainly can't call it a Christian value, or even a "Judeo-Christian" value (which, I'd argue, is largely meaningless).

I think you are still operating under a false premise of "America" as a "Christian nation" which is false. Theologically and historically false.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[WOFFER]

I am pro-Second Amendment. I believe as a man that God requires me to protect my family. 1 Tim 5:8 "If anyone does not provide for his own, and especially his own household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." Part of providing for your family is protection. I will not be outgunned by criminals!

 

[WOFFER]

Most Americans support common-sense gun regulations, like banning assault weapons and red flag laws. It's just a sign of our broken politics that support doesn't translate into policy.

Banning what you call assault weapons is not common sense. The criminals will have them.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Most Americans support common-sense gun regulations, like banning assault weapons and red flag laws. It's just a sign of our broken politics that support doesn't translate into policy.

because enough Americans ( even if they may support certain "common sense" regulations do not trust the government to stop with that. Therefore, people look at those numbers of people dead and look at just how few people die in mass shootings and decide that that may well be a risk worth taking as for the most part gun deaths are either caused by a person's own hand or by gangs/ otherwise during OTHER criminal activity. The same activity of the people who would have guns no matter what you do.

For example, in 2021 the latest data I found there were about 48-49k gun DEATHS that means deaths caused by a gun in any way shape or form not just particular situations.

Of that better than half maybe up to 2/3 were by the person's own hand ( most of whom did not take anyone with them sad yes but not the "mass shooting" that regulations will supposedly prevent.

Another hunk were gun deaths caused in the commission of some other crime ( The people who would have guns one way or another from the black market which these regulations would flood guns into, by the way )

You had some that were caused not in the commission of another crime (probably a small percentage, but were caused by someone's anger at a particular person in many cases if a person has that much hate for someone (especially someone they know well which are probably most cases they will just find another means and there are A LOT of means of killing someone if you want to badly enough.

There are gun deaths that are caused by failure to follow gun safety ( accidental) which in most cases by the way are punishable(

Finally, you have justified homicides which are just that cases where one person kills another for a justified reason ( usually this is some form pf self defense or defense of other though one could argue that in cases pf the castle doctrine self defense plays a smaller role, but it is still not completely not self defense as the thinking is people do not force entry to/enter without permission other people houses. In fact, some states, I believe actually do require that if the entry is not forced it may not be a family member ( I am not sure about that) and even that only applies to the entry if the family member becomes violent to the point you fear for your/another's life you may still use lethal force .

It is of note as well that most shootings and even many "mass shooting" under the way it is currently defined are carried out not with assault weapons or even long guns, but with handguns which happen to be the same guns that generally already have the strictest regulations ( at least in terms of getting them to begin with and even in carrying them. Most states ( even that do not require a permit require a person ( non-military) to be at least 21 to carry a weapon concealed and in many places ( this may be federal law) I am unsure but you have to in at least many places be at least 21 to purchase handguns from dealers and yet those are the guns not long guns or even assault weapons that lead to the most deaths (the same guns that are the hardest to legally obtain.

Do not misunderstand my first paragraph I am NOT saying (and no one is) that the gun deaths are not sad only that when I look at that total ( and the causes/ motivations that make up that total and I compare that to the number of guns and legal gun owners in this country the amount of shooting that those regulations would be targeted to is really a TINY percent of a fairly small percentage of the causes of death in this country.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Banning what you call assault weapons is not common sense. The criminals will have them.

Not banned for all people but have adequate background check for real.

 

[Hank77]

Criminals do not buy their AR15's/AK47's from a Gun Store so they do not go through a background check.

In my state, you can't legally buy a gun ANYWHERE without a background check.

 

[FenderTL5]

Criminals do not buy their AR15's/AK47's from a Gun Store so they do not go through a background check.

If background checks aren't required, what difference does it make where they get them?

 

[FenderTL5]

Where do criminals get most of their guns, lots of them are coming right across our open borders and some are even shooting at the Border Patrol .... lets see where else:

"Across the country, thousands of firearms disappear while in transit every year. According to data from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, 1,074,022 firearms were reported stolen from 2017 to 2021 in incidents of burglaries, robberies and larcenies. More than 13,000 of those thefts occurred in interstate shipments"

MSN

www.msn.com

You should look up the definition of "interstate"

I searched "How many guns are smuggled into the US illegally"
The majority of the results are about guns being illegally trafficked out of the US, not in.
Thoughts?

 

[FenderTL5]

Yep - a lot are trafficked out and trucks are robbed making deliveries. Remember, Fast and Furious ......

It still appears that the international border issue is guns going out of the US.

Since the end of Operation Fast and Furious, related firearms have continued to be discovered in criminal hands. As reported in September 2011, the Mexican government stated that an undisclosed number of guns found at about 170 crime scenes were linked to Fast and Furious.[56] Reflecting on the operation, Attorney General Eric Holder said that the United States government is "...losing the battle to stop the flow of illegal guns to Mexico,"[57] and that the effects of Operation Fast and Furious will most likely continue to be felt for years, as more walked guns appear at Mexican crime scenes

Either way, the source seems to be the lax environment within the USA.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

That, to me, is just modern American gobbledygook.

While there are ethical concerns which both Judaism and Christianity share in common, these don't correlate with modernistic conceptions present in America.

"Personal freedom to choose your path" certainly doesn't look like, "I am the LORD your God who brought you out of Egypt, out of the house of slavery, you shall have no other gods before Me." (Exodus 20:2-3)

It instead looks like secularism. I am not saying that in a critical way either--I believe one of the good things about America is that it is a secular democracy which allows people the freedom of (or from) religion. But that isn't a Jewish or Christian value; that's a secular value. In the Christian Church there is certainly no room for anything other than the worship of "One God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the Substance" (Athanasian Creed). And that matters as a Christian value, for those who call themselves followers of Jesus.

But America isn't founded on either Jewish or Christian values. America doesn't compel those outside of the Christian religion to observe Christian religious practices or adhere to Christian religious beliefs. I think that's a good thing, as I don't believe there should be a political compulsion to be a Christian. But we certainly can't call it a Christian value, or even a "Judeo-Christian" value (which, I'd argue, is largely meaningless).

I think you are still operating under a false premise of "America" as a "Christian nation" which is false. Theologically and historically false.

-CryptoLutheran

We are not Israel. We are not under the first covenant. It was completed and fulfilled in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, the Christ. The Exodus quote is true that God brought Israel out of Egypt, and we are all admonished to have no other Gods before us. But Jesus made if very clear that we are each individually free to choose for ourselves. That's sort of the whole point.

Also, to be clear, I don't see the US as a "Christian nation". I believe it was founded on values that get their origin mostly from the teachings of Christ, but I think a lot of our founders were agnostic at best. But they highly valued personal freedom, and it shows in our constitution and bill of rights.

And to drill in a little deeper: If an American citizen tries to imagine himself as a citizen of another country, be it the Bahamas, France, SA, China, you name it, and then proceeds to look at our culture and our actions over the last 60 years or more, you will probably not perceive us as "the good guys". I've done that thought exercise. Heck, just look at our forms of entertainment. That is not the personality of a "Christian" nation. It's one reason I left the "big city" 12 years ago for rural Kentucky. Changed my life. But to be clear, I have my challenges with the bible belt as well. There is a lot of "arrogant ignorance" on all sides of this thing.

 

[FireDragon76]

Banning what you call assault weapons is not common sense. The criminals will have them.

If we are going to let would-be criminals determine the nature of law, why have laws at all?

 

[Aldebaran]

Most Americans support common-sense gun regulations, like banning assault weapons and red flag laws. It's just a sign of our broken politics that support doesn't translate into policy.

"Common sense" gun regulations have already been implemented. State Laws and Published Ordinances - Firearms (35th Edition) | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

 

[Aldebaran]

If we are going to let would-be criminals determine the nature of law, why have laws at all?

Exactly what we've been trying to tell people about what the WOKE are trying to do. Make laws out to be racist, inequitable, or whatever other terms they come up with, and then laws simply don't apply. Mass theft at retail outlets, murders for the fun of it, drug use and going to the toilet in the middle of the street, and whatever else one desires is freely done. So, why have laws at all?