Hamas-Israel News Thread

[trophy33]

5 scenarios for Gaza's future:

Israel-Hamas war: 5 scenarios for Gaza's future – DW – 10/28/2023

If the Israeli military achieves its stated objective of getting Hamas out of the Gaza Strip, it leaves the area leaderless. Who could take control once the fighting ends?

www.dw.com

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

There is no peace in Palestine and Israel. Palestine launches hundreds if not thousands of rockets, mortars, and other munitions into Israel every year. I don't see any lasting peace while Palestinians still exist in Gaza and the West Bank.

Who else is going to exist there?

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

The attacks are in response to drone atracks on US Forces but if you want to say that Biden is in the wrong I won‘t argue with you

I'm not saying that Biden is in the wrong. Biden is a senile old man who can't put together two coherent sentences when he's off the teleprompter. I'm saying that the United States is in the wrong.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Who else is going to exist there?

I'm open to anyone willing to peacefully coexist alongside Israel...including Israel itself.

There's no nation other than Israel which so many nations and people across the globe insist should sit still and accept hundreds if not thousands of rockets, mortars, and various munitions are fired at its citizens.

At some point, it should be expected that Israel decides enough is enough.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Shining path is still active.

View attachment 338517

Sure, but they aren't considered a major threat anymore. Certainly not like they were decades ago.

The Lord's Resistance Army never had anywhere close to 60,000 members. At it's height it may have had 5,000 to 6,000. There are estimated to be between 200 and 1,000 LRA members today. They continue to carry out attacks on civilians and kidnap children.

My mistake, I mixed up the number of their members with that of their victims.

It doesn't change the underlying point.

Elements of the Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA) continue to carry out attacks and abductions in the Haut-Mbomou prefecture, in southeastern Central African Republic. The security situation is volatile. The local population continues to flee LRA attacks.

Travel advice and advisories for Central African Republic

Travel Advice and Advisories from the Government of Canada

travel.gc.ca

The Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA) operates in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, South Sudan and Uganda. It regularly attacks south-eastern parts of the CAR, especially Haut-Mbomou province.

https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/destinations/africa/central-african-republic

In 2021, a total of 329 children (262 boys, 67 girls), some as young as 7, were verified as having been recruited and used, by armed groups: Coalition des patriotes pour le changement (CPC) (Front populaire pour la renaissance de la Centrafrique (FPRC), joint operations by anti-balaka and Retour, réclamation et réhabilitation (3R), unidentified CPC, anti-balaka, 3R; Union pour la paix en Centrafrique (UPC); and the Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA).

ODS HOME PAGE

Multilingual interface of the UN Official Documents System

documents-dds-ny.un.org

You're pulling examples from 2021, and they aren't great examples. Of those children recruited or kidnapped, you can't even tell me how many the Lord’s Resistance Army was responsible for.

Since their numbers are estimated at 100 or less, it's safe to say they aren't responsible for triple digits.

Neither of the examples you gave prove that terrorist groups can be defeated militarily.

Actually, that's exactly what they're examples of. There are nazis today....that doesn't mean that the Nazis weren't defeated in the 40s. Italy has an army today...that doesn't mean they weren't defeated militarily.

Both groups I listed are pale shadows of their previous selves.

The last throes of Uganda's Lord's Resistance Army – DW – 01/24/2022

After being driven out of Uganda, the Lord's Resistance Army ran riot in the Central African Republic, where it behaved more like a criminal gang than a terrorist militia. Now the LRA's days seem to be numbered.

www.google.com

Kony was once the most wanted criminal terrorist in Africa, now he's a low priority at best.


The LRA of today is not to be compared with the notorious army that made headlines in the international media in 2012," Agenonga added, explaining that sporadic attacks nowadays are carried out primarily to guarantee the survival of its members.

Just a pathetic group of bandits trying to steal to survive. They used to be considered the most terrifying terrorist army in Africa just decades ago. Now, little more than a joke.

That's a terrorist group that suffered military defeat by any definition of the word.

This may surprise you but many Confederate soldiers had survived the defeat of the Confederate Army after the Civil War. Many were reduced to petty banditry, just like the LRA and Shining Path. It would be silly to claim however, that because of a handful of holdouts still causing trouble....the Confederate Army was never defeated militarily.

https://www.cnn.com/2011/12/07/world/americas/peru-shining-path/index.html

The leader of the Shining Path considers his group defeated. The only reason they haven't surrendered is the Peruvian government won't let them negotiate a surrender. They want the remaining members executed or imprisoned for life. They have no way to reintegrate into society....so they are reduced to banditry and petty fights with the police.

Again, I have no idea what metric you're using for a "military defeat" and frankly, I don't really care. I'm not sure why some people fetishize terrorist organizations and imagine them as mighty and invincible...but it's nothing new. We saw many Muslim youths entranced by ISIS when they stormed across Iraq....and most of them are dead or begging to return to their former homelands.

Terrorist groups are entirely beatable by military force. It's just a matter of political will.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Abiding by recognized norms of warfare is one way we tell ourselves we're the good guys.



Being 'flexible' with the recognized norms of warfare is one way we know a group is not the good guys.

(To cut off one unnecessary back and forth, of course Hamas is not the good guys.)

Part of the reason I advocate for a total war doctrine towards warfare is that the "recognized norms" you mentioned are actually a fairly new convention from a historical perspective. They haven't really existed for even a century yet.

I'm skeptical of their value as well. In WW2 we fought serious military forces in both Germany and Japan...and were completely victorious in a relatively short time when compared to our wars against places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

In fact, the moment that the US military began losing conflicts was around the same time we transitioned from a total war theory to a limited or "just war" theory. At the same time....conflicts became both more frequent and significantly longer in duration before resulting in defeat (there are a few exceptions of course).

We went from a nation of relative isolationism and peace before the 2 world wars to a nation that has continually engaged in both small and large scale conflicts endlessly around the globe.

It would seem our new stance is only useful when....

1. Facing extremely limited opposition and needing to achieve extremely limited goals.

Or...

2. When significantly bolstered by a multinational coalition dedicated to the same goals.

Otherwise, what appears to be happening from my viewpoint is...

1. We engage in more conflicts not only at the behest of companies that stand to profit but because our limited warfare gives us a sense of moral righteousness that justifies our meddling in unnecessary conflicts.

2. When fighting a large dedicated force...they need only adopt the same strategy the Vietnamese adopted...which is the same strategy George Washington adopted. Just keep fighting despite losing battles and eventually your enemies will tire of the war (and its costs) and go home. It helps the enemy if they can cause us one very costly victory or even a small defeat in battle...as these tend to push public sentiment towards questioning the worth of our presence in the conflict.

3. Negative propaganda or exposing our war crimes (we have some every single war) also goes a long way towards destroying public support for a war. We literally paraded little Malala around and had her go on every news outlet available to tell her heroic story of wanting to go to school despite Taliban efforts to prevent this....around the time when investigating war journalists were exposing the fact that the warlords we allied with were raping little boys they purchased as sex slaves on our very own military bases. We wanted people to hear about Malala....not the special forces soldier we imprisoned and kicked out of the military for nearly beating to death a local ally who kept a 6yo boy chained to his bed on our military base. The soldier simply couldn't stand hearing the boy's screams night after night.

I think we try to be moral actors in combat...but it's a futile endeavor. I'd rather we be terrible monsters....if it means a swift victory and our hesitation to enter any military conflict that isn't absolutely necessary.

 

[rjs330]

Mere supposition by you.

Of course it's supposition. But we've fought wars before and won. My supposition is based on historical information. We know how to win. So does Israel. But there are a lot of squeamish folks who don't want to do what is necessary. They want to pretend that way can be neat and tidy and no one has to get their hands dirty. We'll all just play a nice easy comfortable war where we'll just criticize the good guys when they step out of line when trying to kill the bad guys.

 

[rjs330]

This could have been said about Europe until 1945, and there have been smaller wars in Europe since then. The Bible teaches us that it is humans, not just Arabs who "can't seem to help themselves." The death toll in the American Civil War was far greater than in Israel/Palestine. Your comment here was racist.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Note it is "all" not "Arabs".

No it's called history of the region. I'm not talking about the world, I'm talking about the middle east and when doing so historically speaking I'm correct.

 

[truthpls]

Of course it's supposition. But we've fought wars before and won. My supposition is based on historical information. We know how to win. So does Israel. But there are a lot of squeamish folks who don't want to do what is necessary. They want to pretend that way can be neat and tidy and no one has to get their hands dirty. We'll all just play a nice easy comfortable war where we'll just criticize the good guys when they step out of line when trying to kill the bad guys.

It is not necessary to attack heavily populated areas and deprive people of water and medical and food. That is not war is is terrorism

 

[JosephZ]

I have no idea what metric you're using for a "military defeat" and frankly, I don't really care. I'm not sure why some people fetishize terrorist organizations and imagine them as mighty and invincible.

Terrorist groups aren't invincible; hundreds have been defeated or have come to an end since 1970, just not by military force in nearly every case. Hamas can also be defeated, but not militarily. Unfortunately, Israel chose to take a path of revenge, showing little discrimination between Gazans and the terrorists rather than specifically targeting the terrorist responsible for the October 7th attack, targeting Hamas leaders, and protecting innocent civilians in the process. Israel's indiscriminate military response in Gaza so far has been a catastrophic failure and is going to have the opposite result of what they intended.

 

[Valletta]

Terrorist groups aren't invincible; hundreds have been defeated or have come to an end since 1970, just not by military force in nearly every case. Hamas can also be defeated, but not militarily. Unfortunately, Israel chose to take a path of revenge, showing little discrimination between Gazans and the terrorists rather than specifically targeting the terrorist responsible for the October 7th attack, targeting Hamas leaders, and protecting innocent civilians in the process. Israel's indiscriminate military response in Gaza so far has been a catastrophic failure and is going to have the opposite result of what they intended.

Hamas will be militarily defeated. Hamas continues to cause the loss of life of civilians, preventing their passage to the humanitarian aid areas show in map leaflets dropped by Israel over Gaza. After that the rest of the jihadists trying to exterminate Israel must be dealt with. Iranian-backed terrorists have launched attacks on U.S. forces, the U.S. must work with Israel to totally eliminate Iran's nuclear capability.

 

[Landon Caeli]

It is not necessary to attack heavily populated areas and deprive people of water and medical and food. That is not war is is terrorism

I can show you pictures of hundreds of middle-aged men, standing around casually in Northern Gaza, when they should be going around door to door, with donkeys and carriages, evacuating people, moving them south.

...Instead, they choose to stay... In waiting... I guess they stand with Hamas as fighters then. Perhaps all who remain do so as fighters.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Yes indeed..! Everyone who wanted to leave, has left. Those who remain are all Hamas fighters now. Thousands of them, dressed in plain clothes and sandals.

...The children are trained to shoot Jews.

...This is not a normal culture we're dealing with here, it's an abomination, sad as that is. Particularly if they place children on the battlefield, which they seem to have prepared to do.

 

[truthpls]

I can show you pictures of hundreds of middle-aged men, standing around casually in Northern Gaza, when they should be going around door to door, with donkeys and carriages, evacuating people, moving them south.

...Instead, they choose to stay... In waiting... I guess they stand with Hamas as fighters then. Perhaps all who remain do so as fighters.

Evacuate to where? Should or will Israel let them there, where some of their families used to have lands? Can they fly out of take a cruise ship or ferry? Will Israel promise to not bomb anymore while they flee? Or would they face the fate of those attacked before in fleeing convoys? I suggest the so called warnings were little more than terrorism, and perhaps some thin attempt to avoid the backlash that comes with mass murder.

Try to remember that not all of us think we must support one terrorist over the other.

 

[truthpls]

Everyone who wanted to leave, has left. Those who remain are all Hamas fighters. Thousands of them, dressed in plain clothes and sandals.

Every extremely poor family including the sick and old or babies left? If Israel was 'warned' to evacuate half of Israel within 24 hours do you think all who remained there would be fighters?

 

[JosephZ]

Everyone who wanted to leave, has left. Those who remain are all Hamas fighters now. Thousands of them, dressed in plain clothes and sandals.

What about the hundreds of Christians that have decided to stay behind and are taking refuge at the Holy Family Catholic Parish, the St. Porphyrius Church, and the Baptist church attached to al-Ahli Hospital? They're Hamas fighters now?

 

[Landon Caeli]

Evacuate to where? Should or will Israel let them there, where some of their families used to have lands? Can they fly out of take a cruise ship or ferry? Will Israel promise to not bomb anymore while they flee? Or would they face the fate of those attacked before in fleeing convoys? I suggest the so called warnings were little more than terrorism, and perhaps some thin attempt to avoid the backlash that comes with mass murder.

Try to remember that not all of us think we must support one terrorist over the other.

They have donkeys, and carts, and they've had two weeks to get out. That's more than enough time, Israel has been very generous.

Israel did everything right on their end.

 

[Landon Caeli]

What about the hundreds of Christians that have decided to stay behind and are taking refuge at the Holy Family Catholic Parish, the St. Porphyrius Church, and the Baptist church attached to al-Ahli Hospital? They're Hamas fighters now?

Probably they are. What makes you think their Christian affiliation makes them any less supportive of Hamas?

 

[Landon Caeli]

Make no mistake. These "innocent people" are likely to be armed and ready to shoot.

How will the media portray it? Based on their clothes..? While ignoring the gun in their hand..?

I'm curious.

 

[truthpls]

They have donkeys, and carts, and they've had two weeks to get out.

How about letting them flee to Israel and restoring lands as needed etc? How about taking down the barbed wire? telling a million people to leave their homes when fleeing convoys were already attacked doing that and while the bombs are destroying apartment after apartment with people in them is terrorism.

That's more than enough time, Israel has been very generous.

Israel did everything right on their end.

Terrorism is not right. Mass murdering families is not of God. It is evil. If Israel cannot get at the Hamas terrorists without collective punishment and terrorism of a heavily populated area, then I say they can make a new plan, Sam.